Paradise And Spirit Prison

[thesometimesaint]

zerinus:

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.28-35,44-48?lang=eng#27

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old aserpent, even the bdevil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our cGod and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh awar with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the asufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the asons of bperdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are avessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is ano bforgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open cshame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the alake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the aonly ones on whom the bsecond cdeath shall have any power;

Edited September 2, 2011 by thesometimesaint

[LeSellers]

HeII! You guys don't even know how to spell heII.

Nor, apparently, do you.

Lehi

[Calm]

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

It was confusing to me due to the leaving out of "to the ordinances", it makes a difference.

[Calm]

Mere aknowledgement of Christ is not accepting Christ- it gets you nowhere.

Not quite "mere", they must acknowledge Christ as Sovereign, Lord and Master (knee shall bow).

There is a disconnect in our doctrine in that we teach that a man can be saved without accepting Christ (Accepting the gospel and showing obedience to it). But that is a false doctrine.

Feel free to write the church curriculum dept. and get them to correct it.

Until then, I leave you with this to dwell upon:

Says Bro. Brigham, "If the Lord Almighty should reveal to a High Priest, or to any other than the head, things that are true, or that have been and will be, and show to him the destiny of this people twenty-five years from now, or a new doctrine that will in five, ten, or twenty years hence become the doctrine of this Church and Kingdom, but which has not yet been revealed to this people, and reveal it to him by the same Spirit, the same messenger, the same voice, the same power that gave revelations to Joseph when he was living, it would be a blessing to that High Priest, or individual; but he must rarely divulge it to a second person on the face of the earth, until God reveals it through the proper source to become the property of the people at large. Therefore when you hear Elders say that God does not reveal through the President of the Church that which they know, and tell wonderful things, you may generally set it down as a God’s truth that the revelation they have had is from the Devil, and not from God. If they had received from the proper source, the same power that revealed to them would have shown them that they must keep the things revealed in their own bosoms, and they seldom would have a desire to disclose them to the second person. – JD 3:318. *Discourses of Brigham Young*, p. 338. Cf. Alma 12:9.

[zerinus]

zerinus:

http://lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.28-35,44-48?lang=eng#27

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old aserpent, even the bdevil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our cGod and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh awar with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the asufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the asons of bperdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are avessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is ano bforgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having adenied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having bcrucified him unto themselves and put him to an open cshame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the alake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the aonly ones on whom the bsecond cdeath shall have any power;

And so? I don't see the expression "outer darkness," or even "darkness" appear anywhere in that passage.

By the way, here is another scripture that I had forgotten to quote:

D&C 138

:

22 Where these were,

darkness reigned,

but among the righteous there was peace;

This quote describes the condition of the unhappy souls in the spirit world, from Joseph F. Smith's Vision of the Redemption of the Dead.

—which I have just added to the above list!

Edited September 2, 2011 by zerinus

[zerinus]

Nor, apparently, do you.

Lehi

You have to agree though, it is the best workaround, given the default typeface used.

Edited September 2, 2011 by zerinus

[LeSellers]

You have to agree though, it is the best workaround, given the default typeface used.

Well, no , I don't.

I think mine is at least as good. (And it works in most fonts.)

Lehi

[Nathair/|\]

Toss in that according to Alma 40:13, "outer darkness" = what you guys like to call "spirit prison".

The expression "outer darkness" in fact occurs 6 times in the standard works; and in none of them does it refer to the "final destination for the SoP's:"

Matthew 8

:

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the

children of the kingdom

shall be cast out into

outer darkness:

there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22

:

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a

wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into

outer darkness;

there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are

called,

but few are

chosen.

Matthew 25

:

28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the

unprofitable servant

into

outer darkness:

there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Alma 40

:

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into

outer darkness;

there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

D&C 101

:

86 Let them importune at the feet of the judge;

87 And if he heed them not, let them importune at the feet of the governor;

88 And if the governor heed them not, let them importune at the feet of the president;

89 And if the president heed them not, then will the Lord arise and come forth out of his hiding place, and in his fury vex the nation;

90 And in his hot displeasure, and in his fierce anger, in his time, will cut off those

wicked, unfaithful, and unjust stewards,

and appoint them their portion among

hypocrites, and unbelievers;

91 Even in

outer darkness,

where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

D&C 133

:

71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye

believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

72 Wherefore, they sealed up the testimony and bound up the law, and ye were delivered over unto

darkness.

73 These shall go away into

outer darkness,

where there is weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth.

D&C 138

:

20 But unto the

wicked

he did not go, and among the

ungodly and the unrepentant

who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the

rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets

behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were,

darkness reigned,

but among the righteous there was peace;

I don't know where you guys get your doctrines form; but for sure it ain't from scripture!

From the Gospel Principles manual, Chapter 46

outer darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is noforgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

[zerinus]

From the Gospel Principles manual, Chapter 46

outer darkness

These are they who had testimonies of Jesus through the Holy Ghost and knew the power of the Lord but allowed Satan to overcome them. They denied the truth and defied the power of the Lord. There is noforgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever. (See D&C 76:28–35, 44–48.)

The Gospel Principles manual was recently changed and updated. All that that proves is that it wasn't changed enough, was it!

[Rob Osborn]

Not quite "mere", they must acknowledge Christ as Sovereign, Lord and Master (knee shall bow).

Feel free to write the church curriculum dept. and get them to correct it.

Until then, I leave you with this to dwell upon:

Every knee shall bow but not all that bow shall be saved. Only those who repent and accept the gospel will be saved.

[Zakuska]

Is Paradise only for Mormons?

And do all others go to Spirit Prison until someone performs a proxy baptism for them?

Also, I seem to remember Joseph saying that no man can can become an SOP except here in the flesh.

Is that true?

You have to remember that Paradise and spirit prison are both in the land of the dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham

[LeSellers]

Every knee shall bow but not all that bow shall be saved. Only those who repent and accept the gospel will be saved.

It depends on what one means by "saved". All but the Sons of Perdition ("Lost [one]"; another name for Satan) will be saved from being subject to Satan. Even the Sons of Perdition will be saved from death through the resurrection.

Those who fail to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior will have to pay the price of hteir sins through the sufferings of he11.

"Saved" is, in and of itself, not a specific concept. One must include that from which the person is saved.

Lehi

[Rob Osborn]

It depends on what one means by "saved". All but the Sons of Perdition ("Lost [one]"; another name for Satan) will be saved from being subject to Satan. Even the Sons of Perdition will be saved from death through the resurrection.

Those who fail to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior will have to pay the price of hteir sins through the sufferings of he11.

"Saved" is, in and of itself, not a specific concept. One must include that from which the person is saved.

Lehi

There is a disconnect in our doctrine. Perhaps let me rephrase-

It is true that all except the sons of perdition will be saved. What are they saved from? From the second death. This is generally what all scriptures refer to when discussing being saved. All the "saved (saved from second death) will have to have repented and accept Christ and show obedience to the ordinances of the gospel.

[zerinus]

My personal understanding of all the doctrinal statements is that the spirit world is conducted more or less similarly to how life is conducted here . . . everyone is all together. No one gets ushered into little boxes or camps labeled with big signs that say: Spirit Prison Here, Paradise Here.

That is manifestly incorrect. While in this life the wicked and righteous are more or less mixed up together; according to the Book of Mormon the first segregation between the wicked and the righteous takes place in the spirit world after death, where the wicked are in an unhappy condition (referred to as "outer darkness" by Alma, or a state of "darkness" by D&C 138), and the righteous in a happy condition called "Paradise".

Edited September 2, 2011 by zerinus

[Maidservant]

That is manifestly incorrect. While in this life the wicked and righteous are more or less mixed up together; according to the Book of Mormon the first segregation between the wicked and the righteous takes place in the spirit world after death, where the wicked are in an unhappy condition (referred to as "outer darkness" by Alma, or a state of "darkness" by D&C 138), and the righteous in a happy condition called "Paradise".

I have now re-read Alma 40 and D & C 138, and I can see that there are place(s) of peace and place(s) of darkness (D&C 138:22 "Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace."), so thank you for reminding me. However, I would maintain that nothing in Alma 40 or D & C 138 necessitates a bifurcated real estate. Rather, the condition of the souls involved are what determines the nature of the real estate . . . just as what happens here among the living. I live in a beautiful little small town that is quite safe . . . because of the righteous people who live here. But no one is barred from driving through. Maybe there are more controls that righteous spirits have for their protecting their places in the spirit world, I wouldn't doubt it and would like to think that is so.

Also . . . the wicked are segregated in the living world too . . . because those who choose to be wicked, or are ignorantly wicked, can never "come" where I am at . . . they can never know my joy and my deliverance, because they are not living it.

It seems to me . . . and as D & C 138 shows . . . there is something that happens to the condition of a spirit, a deliverance, that comes from covenants (ordinances) . . . even good people had to wait for those.

One of my problems with bifurcative explanations of any matter of the gospel--setting the wicked on one side, and the righteous on the other and drawing a pretty red line down the middle--is that this simply is not how it is. Each individual has done evil, each individual has done good (barring a few saints and a few Akish's so to speak), so how do you decide where each one "goes", if it is simply a matter of the spiritual ticket price to a certain piece of real estate? So I simply think there is more to it. Obviously, the scriptures give us a pattern, but is devoid of detail.

But I'm sure I have more to learn.

[Calm]

Also . . . the wicked are segregated in the living world too . . . because those who choose to be wicked, or are ignorantly wicked, can never "come" where I am at . . . they can never know my joy and my deliverance, because they are not living it.

It seems to me . . . and as D & C 138 shows . . . there is something that happens to the condition of a spirit, a deliverance, that comes from covenants (ordinances) . . . even good people had to wait for those.

One of my problems with bifurcative explanations of any matter of the gospel--setting the wicked on one side, and the righteous on the other and drawing a pretty red line down the middle--is that this simply is not how it is. Each individual has done evil, each individual has done good (barring a few saints and a few Akish's so to speak), so how do you decide where each one "goes", if it is simply a matter of the spiritual ticket price to a certain piece of real estate? So I simply think there is more to it. Obviously, the scriptures give us a pattern, but is devoid of detail.

But I'm sure I have more to learn.

It could be more of a segregation of the mind/spirit then of the body, locationwise we are all present as we are here. However those who spiritually are in darkness cannot see that which is in light, as we grow in the light of the Spirit we become more and more aware of others and our surrounding that are of good and not of wickedness and darkness.

Would make for more efficient missionary work among other things.

Edited September 2, 2011 by calmoriah

[zerinus]

I have now re-read Alma 40 and D & C 138, and I can see that there are place(s) of peace and place(s) of darkness (D&C 138:22 "Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace."), so thank you for reminding me. However, I would maintain that nothing in Alma 40 or D & C 138 necessitates a bifurcated real estate. Rather, the condition of the souls involved are what determines the nature of the real estate . . . just as what happens here among the living. I live in a beautiful little small town that is quite safe . . . because of the righteous people who live here. But no one is barred from driving through. Maybe there are more controls that righteous spirits have for their protecting their places in the spirit world, I wouldn't doubt it and would like to think that is so.

Also . . . the wicked are segregated in the living world too . . . because those who choose to be wicked, or are ignorantly wicked, can never "come" where I am at . . . they can never know my joy and my deliverance, because they are not living it.

It seems to me . . . and as D & C 138 shows . . . there is something that happens to the condition of a spirit, a deliverance, that comes from covenants (ordinances) . . . even good people had to wait for those.

One of my problems with bifurcative explanations of any matter of the gospel--setting the wicked on one side, and the righteous on the other and drawing a pretty red line down the middle--is that this simply is not how it is. Each individual has done evil, each individual has done good (barring a few saints and a few Akish's so to speak), so how do you decide where each one "goes", if it is simply a matter of the spiritual ticket price to a certain piece of real estate? So I simply think there is more to it. Obviously, the scriptures give us a pattern, but is devoid of detail.

But I'm sure I have more to learn.

I am sure there is great diversity within the various kingdoms, including heII. The D&C teaches for example that there is great diversity within the telestial kingdom. But there is also strict demarcation or segregation between them. "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:26). In this world I can easily obtain a gun and shoot my innocent neighbor dead, or do him some other kind of harm, out of the wickedness of my heart. But in the spirit world you can't do that any more--except to people of your own kind! If you have that kind of disposition, you will be confined to a place where people of the same disposition are, where they can do to each other whatever they like!

HeII basically is the place where hellish people are; and heaven is a place where heavenly type people are. It is the kinds of people there that makes the place a heII or a heaven. When you get to the next life, you can't just switch sides as you like, like you can here.

Edited September 3, 2011 by zerinus

[Maidservant]

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:26)

That is comforting .

[Messenger]

One thing to keep in mind as far as the Spirit World is concerned, Those in the spirit prison have to be taught, or at least have the privilege of being taught the Gospel. This is much like missionaries today that teach and cross the "gulf" of different countries and circumstances. So, the gulf is not entirely impassible, nor could it be in order to accomplish Christ’s task. This is a change that happened after Christ's death, before his resurrection when he organized the gospel in the spirit world.

Here a reference to that from the Church Website....

"The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).

D&C 138:30 But behold, from among the righteous, he ^aorganized his forces and appointed ^bmessengers, ^cclothed with power and authority, and ^dcommissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in ^edarkness, even to ^fall the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

.... If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise."

In another reference, clarification is given on the organization that was set up between the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ....

"President Joseph F. Smith wondered how the Savior could have preached to all the people in the spirit world in the short time between His death and Resurrection. But President Smith perceived that “unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant … , his voice was not raised. …“But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers … [to] proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

“Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets” (D&C 138:20, 30–32).

"The work of preaching the gospel to these unbaptized dead goes on even to this day. The messengers now being dispatched by the Savior to the unbaptized who have died include the faithful members of the Church of this dispensation who have died. For when the faithful “depart from mortal life, [they] continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead” (D&C 138:57)."

Some may kask what actual work to the rightous spirit in paradise do? It is true that they are at rest from every earthly care ... providing a living for themselves with a job and monetary income and they have no health concerns. But, in my opinion, are busy helping us, influencing us, in many ways including temple work and finding names for those to have ordinances performed in proxy.

"Baptism for the dead and other sacred ordinances performed for the dead were restored to earth through the Prophet Joseph Smith. These sacred ordinances are now performed in more than 100 temples throughout the earth. These temples are an outward manifestation of our testimony of the reality of the work that goes on for the dead both here and in the spirit world, a work initiated by the Savior’s visit to the righteous dead."

This concept of LDS Church doctrine is part of the poem that I have been working on ... see part of my poem below ....

He atoned for the sinner, drunk, rich and blind.

So that we can see, through his clear understanding.

That his love will dissolve the past; the chains of our grief

Into the fire they are cast, He miraculously sets us free

Then Christ organized the spirits dead, entering their grave

No longer they wait, so righteous they became, they taught

truth to those in body & without, and they listen and see, the joy of thee.

They are transfigured from foreigners, into one, they are we!

They influence the struggle of our journey. Without the sword,

we push our cart with our sweat, and carry the word

and wear it on our heart. We travel the Journey sometimes alone

As pioneers, faithfully and sometimes bittersweet is our part.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Messenger

[Messenger]

I Just wanted to say thanks to the OP for posting this thread. The lesson in High Priest went really well for me since I had the benefit of studying this subject before hand via this thread. It just goes to show this is one of the true advantages of this website.

Thanks again.