Not so easy?

[Brant Gardner]

To make Bill's challenge even closer to the Book of Mormon example, he should allow the KJV New Testament. However, there would be no manuscript copies in original languages, only the KJV.

In addition to the archaeological evidence and inscriptions you might find about Christianity, you must deal with the anachronisms in the KJV (such as swaddling clothes and candles). Just for fun you could try to resolve Luke's description of Nazareth with archaeology (see Crossan and Reed, Excavating Jesus for the nature of the conflict).

I do notice (as did Bill) that no one has taken the challenge seriously. A comment from toon:

However, I'd be more than willing to consider non-archealogical and pre-400 A.D. inscriptional evidence of the BOM. For example, if Mayan descendents (or other Native Americans) had an oral tradition or history with some similarities to the BOM, that would be considered evidence. Not conclusive, but it could make it more or less likely.

Let's see. You expect that a lore community that did not accept the Christian story might preserve it for 1600 years when it had no relevance to their own community (and was consciously attacked by the people you expect to preserve the lore)? Would you please tell us why any folklorist would expect that such a think might happen?

[Bill Hamblin]

I still don't see why I shouldn't be able to consider any evidence that would might exist had Christianity ended in 300 A.D.

Actually if you did it still would make little difference. You would get some funerary inscriptions which mention Paul, Peter, and Christians. Occasional references in such inscriptions to Christ were usually abbreviated X, which would be unintelligible without additional data.

You would also have papyri fragements of a few parts of the NT.

The problem here is constructing a methodological problem analogous to the demands made by anti-Mormons for what should be discoverable about Nephites in Mesoamerica. Ecological conditions in Mesoamerica and the types of writing material essentially insure that no pre-conquest codexes survive. Thus, Christian papyrological material should not be permitted. Furthermore, as far as I am aware, we have no private funerary inscriptions from pre-400 Mesoamerica. Thus, you should not be allowed to use private Christian funerary inscriptions. Hence the form of the challenge.

Admittedly the challenge is not precisely analogous--nothing in history is ever precisely analogous--but it gives a feel for the type of demand the anti-Mormons are making of the BOM. The general claim of anti-Mormons is that it should be an easy thing to do, and the fact that it is not done is proof that the BOM is ahistorical.

So do it.

[Bill Hamblin]

To make Bill's challenge even closer to the Book of Mormon example, he should allow the KJV New Testament. However, there would be no manuscript copies in original languages, only the KJV.

Brant's got a good point.

Good luck.

[Brant Gardner]

cinepro:

If I remember correctly, Brant's "response" is characteristically apologetic: we're supposed to assume that the "text" is being poetic, or mythical, or exaggerated. In other words, we're not supposed to believe what the text actually says.

Somehow that doesn't sound like any position I have taken. I have certainly indicated that the Book of Mormon should be read in the same way as other ancient texts and that such texts frequently have layered meanings that do not correspond to our assumed readings of the text.

I see that as a significantly different point than being "characteristically apologetic." As far as I know, that is how any scholar would approach any ancient text. If you are speaking of 4 Nephi, there is some very good evidence that the dating in that is intended to by more symbolic than literal - and it is the text itself that declares it, not just me.

[toon]

I note that, despite all the attempts at distraction, no one has actually taken the challenge.

I note that you first asked this question less than two hours after creating the thread and issuing the challenge. is it a realy challenge, or are you just playing games?

You should also note that I didn't refuse the challenge. (Although I questioned whether it was even issued to me as I never clamed that it should be easy to find conclusive proof of the BOM through archeological evidence.) I merely asked a couple clarifying questions.

That being said, and playing within the parameters you set forth, I suspect that the archeological evidence and insciptions will provide greater evidence for the existence of pre-300 A.D. Christianity than it will for the existence of a Nephite/Lamanite civilization. In other words, someone who had never heard of Christrianity would be able to look at the available evidence and verify, with a certain degree of assuredness, a claim that there was a group of people between 33 -300 A.D. who believed something to the effect that a Jew named Jesus was some form of deity who was crucified and resurrected. Likewise, that same person would not be able to verify, with anything close to the same degree of assuredness, any BOM claims throught he examination of Mesoamerican evidnece.

I admint that I'm no expert. However, I have ordered Snyder's book through Amazon and will take a stab at it.

At the end of the day, however, I don't believe this proves anything. But again, I don't think I'm in your target audience as I've never said it'd be easy to find conclusive proof.

[A Random Catholic]

I bet this "monument" would lead the researchers astray...

This crude graffiti cartoon from the early second century, may be the oldest depiction of Christ. Scratched onto a plaster wall, it depicts a donkey headed man on a crucifix. Next to him is a figure with a raised arm, ostensibly the butt of the joke. The Greek caption reads "Alexamenos sebete theon" (Alexamenos worships his god).

Enjoy the last laugh, Alexamenos

[toon]

However, I'd be more than willing to consider non-archealogical and pre-400 A.D. inscriptional evidence of the BOM. For example, if Mayan descendents (or other Native Americans) had an oral tradition or history with some similarities to the BOM, that would be considered evidence. Not conclusive, but it could make it more or less likely.

Let's see. You expect that a lore community that did not accept the Christian story might preserve it for 1600 years when it had no relevance to their own community (and was consciously attacked by the people you expect to preserve the lore)? Would you please tell us why any folklorist would expect that such a think might happen?

I think you missed my point. Fortunately, Bill got it. I understand his response, and very well may be right. I certainly don't know the evidence as well as I suspect he does.

[Bill Hamblin]

Enjoy the last laugh, Alexamenos

The problem with this evidence is, of course, why would anyone think this is Christian? No mention of Jesus or Christians.

[Bill Hamblin]

I suspect that the archeological evidence and insciptions will provide greater evidence for the existence of pre-300 A.D. Christianity than it will for the existence of a Nephite/Lamanite civilization.

I look forward to seeing your evidence to support this claim.

[alienward]

For those that think it should be easy to find conclusive proof of the BOM through archaeological evidence, I offer the following challenge.

All that survives in Mesoamerica from pre-400 AD is archaeological artifacts, and some Maya royal inscriptions and reliefs.  Assume, for the sake of Argument, that Diocletian's persecutions of Christianity were successful, Constantine never converted, and Christianity disappeared around 300 AD.  Using solely archaeological artifacts and imperial Roman inscriptions, reconstruct the history of Christianity.  What, precisely, could we prove about Christianity using solely archaeological artifacts and Roman royal inscriptions?  To give you a little help, you can turn to Graydon F. Snyder, Ante Pacem: Archaeological Evidence of Church Life Before Constantine, 2nd ed.(Mercer UP, 2003), which includes all major archaeological data.

Not much, that

[A Random Catholic]

Enjoy the last laugh, Alexamenos

The problem with this evidence is, of course, why would anyone think this is Christian? No mention of Jesus or Christians.

Yeah, I'm sorta on your side. Researchers would have a bunch of data involving a crucified God, including this. They might think that the donkey-headed thing was somehow important and end up with a skewed vision of Christianity. I thought it was right on target...

[Dr. Shades]

Bill "Metcalfe is Butthead" Hamblin writes:

Assume, for the sake of Argument, that Diocletian's persecutions of Christianity were successful, Constantine never converted, and Christianity disappeared around 300 AD.

[aznative]

Hey random,

Instead of only being 'sorta on your side", how about you just give in? Go ahead, you know you want to convert. We'll let you come on over and 'hit for the other team'. I'll even give up that nasty tobacco habit of mine so I can dunk ya!

[aznative]

Yes, yes R.C. (my favorite cola also) I understand that you may be speechless over such a once in a lifetime offer.

Just take the plunge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Just Curious]

..and on RC Cola..what does RC stand for?

[Scott Lloyd]

..and on RC Cola..what does RC stand for?

Royal Crown.

But I wouldn't expect anybody younger than I to know that.

[mormon fool]

..and on RC Cola..what does RC stand for?

Royal Crown

Yucky stuff

[Guest Just Curious]

ok guys I was trying to see if AZ knew...dang it...LOL.....Yep I grew up on RC cola in the 60's too...ever take a bag of planters peanuts and pour em in your RC...I remember when RC had those big old heavy bottles...with the top you had to use an opener for...

[aznative]

I'm 29 there Scott. How old are you man? Did the REDSOX win their last world series prior to last night when you were in high school?

Mormon fool, good stuff. Good stuff.

[aznative]

okay there JC, I'm not that old. Jeez, what is a bottle opener? And why would you need to open a bottle?

[John Russell]

Royal Crown

Yucky stuff

Oh, puhleeze! Obviously you have never plopped yourself on the front porch with a case of RC Cola and a box of moonpies, and let the world pass you by (actually, I've heard this hypothesized as the reason the South lost the Civil War).

[Beowulf]

I note that no one has mentioned a true-to-life example from the Roman world.

The Gnostics were widespread in the first three centuries after Christ, but then completely disappeared. Men knew basically nothing about them until texts started being dug out of the sands in the last few decades, most notably at Nag Hammadi in 1945.

If asked, most people would have had nothing to say about them, while others would not believe they existed at all!

Beowulf

[Bill Hamblin]

If the Book of Mormon is true, then finding evidence of the Nephites in Mesoamerica should be no more difficult than finding evidence of the Roman Empire in Italy.

See the other "Not so Easy." A more reasonable comparison is Nephites with the ancient kingdom of Israel.

Your next task is to distinguish pre-Babylonian Israelites from Canaanites on the basis of archaeology alone.

And, once you've had a go at that one, find the name of Jerusalem from pre-Christian archaeology.

[aznative]

Yes tis very well could've been the reason why. It is most obvious that the North did not have superior leadership. Greater numbers of men and better munitions and the means to replenish said munitions. But definitely not leadership. Or RC Cola. Or Moon pies. Must go to cabinet and get RC.

[Guest Just Curious]

RC Cola and a box of moonpies,

Been there done that more times than I have fingers and toes to count on...

OHHHH way down yonder in the land of Cotton

Old times there are not forgotten ...

Ok um AZ...long time ago in a galaxy far far away before the advent of screw top bottles, the old bottles had a round lip on them, the tops were kind of tin with a cork or rubber liner and flared out, then the bottle with the top on it passed thru a crimper that pushed the top and flare down around the lip and it caught onto the lip, the bottle opener was a little metal device that looked like a handle with a loop on the end or a little doohicky that hung down to catch the top and pry it off...no twisting or plastic there..