Prop 8, The Play

[Daniel2]

Imagine if Mormons stated they were against polygamy and then Salt Lake City had parades celebrating the act, showing polygamous groups, and celebrating those individuals who were polygamous. A "Daniel" then telling us that "well some Mormons may believe in polygamy, but really the vast majority do not".

How much credibility would you place on such a person to honestly reflect the reality?

Even better than "imagining" your hypothetical scenario, Jeff, let's ask your question about a "real" scenario:

Imagine if Mormons stated they were against gay relationships, and then Salt Lake City had gay Pride Parades, celebrating gay and lesbian relationships, showing gay groups, and celebrating those individuals who are gay.

A "Daniel" then tells us that, "well, some Mormons believe in gay relationships, but really the vast majority do not."

Now... how much credibility would you place on such a person to honestly reflect the reality?

Your perception of LGBT relationships is distorted, Jeff. That isn't surprising, given the harsh treatment you've tragically had to endure by some scornful and hateful individuals. I lament and condemn their behavior towards you, and what you've had to face. Any sympathy does not make your misperception of those of us who are gay any more accurate. Unfortunately, that perception, forged in the hurtful experiences you've endured, is not reflective of all LGBT individuals or relationships. It seems to me that your vehement insistance that your experiences must be true of all gays and lesbians is akin to a victim of abuse misguidedly overgeneralizing the negative behaviors and/or character flaws of his or her abuser(s) onto other similiar-but-unrelated individuals.

In fact, I believe that the perception you and Storm Rider are suggesting is out of step with LDS leadership at the highest levels on this point. No where have I seen from them the blanket condemnation that is being suggested, here. Consider, for example, the following address my Marlin K. Jensen (a man who has my respect, despite our divergent religious beliefs):

Those Who Are Different

Elder Marlin K. Jensen is a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy.

This address was given at a Utah County Stake Conference Broadcast September 7, 2008 and will be published in the Religious Educator, Volume 10, number 2, in 2009 by the BYU Religious Studies Center.

Two years before I was born in 1942, my mother gave birth to my older brother, Gary. My brother Gary is a very special person. When he was born, his brain was damaged by a lack of oxygen. His mind never grew above the level of a six or seven year old. For over sixty years I watched my parents take care of Gary. They helped brush his teeth, comb his hair, and tie his tie on Sunday. Because he loved horses and cowboys, they took him to rodeos and Western movies and performed countless acts of love and kindness for him.

Unfortunately, people aren't always so kind to those who are different. I'm sorry to say that some children, even children from active LDS families-were unkind to my brother, Gary. They shut him out of games, called him ugly names, and teased him unmercifully. Once when he was eating an ice cream cone, a boy guided him over to a dog and let the dog lick the ice cream. Everyone laughed when Gary went back to licking the cone himself!

Gary was a childlike person who was always quick to forgive. He loved and accepted everybody. I think that aside from my parents, this special brother did more during my childhood to shape my outlook on life than anyone else. I sometimes think how it will be after the Resurrection when, as Alma describes, "all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame" (Alma 40:23). Then we'll know the real Gary for the first time, and I think we'll be very grateful for all the good things we've done for him and very sad about those times when we might have been more loving and understanding of his special circumstances.

There are many other people like Gary in our world. Even within the Church there are certain of our brothers and sisters who might be considered "different," and who especially need our love and understanding. Their need for this love and understanding stem in part from the culture that has developed as we strive to live life within the gospel and according to God's plan for us. Like all cultures, the culture surrounding the gospel of Jesus Christ includes certain expectations and what sociologists call mores, or morally binding customs. Marriage and family are highly valued, for instance, and fathers and mothers have divinely appointed roles to fulfill. Children and youth are encouraged to live by certain standards and walk prescribed paths to achieve certain educational and spiritual goals.

The desired outcomes of a gospel,centered life are held up as ideals for which we are all encouraged to strive. Although such ideals are doctrinally based and represent desirable objectives in our quest for eternal life, they can sometimes become sources of disappointment and pain for those whose lives may vary from the ideal.

Discomfort and unfulfilled expectations may exist, for example, for a divorced Church member, for a person still single though of marriageable age, for a person struggling with bouts of depression or an eating disorder, or for the parents of a wayward child. Other Church members who may feel culturally conspicuous are those in a racial minority, those struggling with feelings of same-gender attraction, or young men who for whatever reason chose not to serve a mission at the usual age. Members who repent and whose transgressions require formal and thus more public Church discipline also often find their social interaction in the Church to be quite awkward.

Even when worthy, members whose lives don't fit the ideal and thus are considered different often feel inferior and guilty. These feelings are heightened when we as their brothers and sisters fail to be as thoughtful and sensitive toward them as we ought to be. Consider, for instance, even the unintended impact on a couple married for some years who remain childless when a mother of three who has just had a new baby, arises in fast and testimony meeting and innocently thanks God for trusting her with one more of his precious children.

In resolving the challenging situations I have described, it is important to recognize that the solution isn't to eliminate or even lower the level of the ideal. Prophets and apostles have always had the duty to teach and encourage us to strive for the ideal. My guess is that President Packer and President Uchtdorf will be doing that today. It was what the Savior did. His injunction was "Be ye therefore perfect" (Matthew 5:48), not just "Have a good day."

A helpful insight on this matter came to me several years ago when I was reading the Savior's teachings about the man who had one hundred sheep and one went astray. The Savior asks, "Doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?" (Matthew 18:12). As one who has been a priesthood leader for many years, I had always thought of myself as the shepherd-the one out searching for the lost sheep. But in a moment of reflection it came to me that in some way or another we are all the one lost sheep. We all have our failings, and our lives vary in some ways from the ideal. We are all different! This is a humbling but helpful recognition.

It is also helpful to remember that in teaching the ideal, the Savior recognized that it isn't always immediately attainable. In speaking of spiritual gifts-those wonderful endowments of the Holy Ghost-the Savior said, "They are given for the benefit of those who love me and keep all my commandments." Having to keep all the commandments to enjoy spiritual gifts seems an impossibly high standard, but then the Savior adds that spiritual gifts are also given for the benefit of "him that seeketh so to do" (D&C 46:9). Seeking to keep all the commandments-even if we sometimes fall short of the ideal-is something within the power of each of us and is acceptable to our Heavenly Father.

Since at baptism we all covenanted to "mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort" (Mosiah 18:9), being compassionate and sensitive to those in special circumstances-those who are different-is an important aspect of our efforts to be Christ's disciples. Of Jesus, Nephi wrote, "He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world" (2 Nephi 26:24). It is inconceivable the Savior would do or say anything that would injure or intensify the pains of any of God's children. In fact, Alma taught that as a part of the Atonement, Christ voluntarily experienced our pains, sicknesses, and infirmities so "that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people" (Alma 7:12).

We can take great comfort in Christ's ability to relate to our own experiences in life, a trait known as empathy. An old Jewish saying describes empathy as "feeling your pain in my heart." The record of Christ's ministry is replete with instances of His empathy and kindness to those who were different.

When the current Primary Children's Songbook was compiled in 1987, a song was needed to speak to children (and all of us) about those, who because they are different, have special needs. Its purpose was to encourage kindness and love toward them. Carol Lynn Pearson wrote the words and Reid Nibley the music for "I'll Walk with You," 140-41. I conclude with its inspiring message:

If you don't walk as most people do,

Some people walk away from you,

But I won't! I won't!

If you don't talk as most people do,

Some people talk and laugh at you,

But I won't! I won't!

I'll walk with you. I'll talk with you.

That's how I'll show my love for you.

Jesus walked away from none.

He gave his love to ev'ryone.

So I will! I will!

Jesus blessed all he could see,

Then turned and said, "Come, follow me."

And I will! I will!

I will! I will!

I'll walk with you. I'll talk with you.

That's how I'll show my love for you.

May God bless us to realize that an important measure of how we are doing in our quest to come unto Christ is how we treat others, especially those who are different. I seriously doubt there will be anyone in the celestial kingdom who is not kind. And may we remember we are all different in some ways is my prayer, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

© Intellectual Reserve, Inc.

(Some may remember that Carol Lynn Pearson, the author of the Primary song Elder Jensen quotes, is well-known for having a husband who, after having children and several years of marriage, then came out of the closet as gay, ended their marriage and attempted to try to find a romantic gay relationship, subsequently contracted HIV, returned home, and passed away while in Carol Lynn's care).

I'm also continually grateful for the following portion of Elder Jensen's interview to PBS for their TV mini-series "The Mormons" which aired in 2006:

... What is the official position of the church on homosexuality?

... Our position on that is that there is a single standard actually of morality for all members of the church, and that essentially is that we abstain from all sexual relationships and sexual relations prior to marriage. Once we do marry, we are loyal, completely loyal, to our marital partner, and that the only marriage sanctioned by God is of a man to a woman. As Paul said, "Neither is a man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord."

So there is really no allowance within our doctrine for a homosexual relationship of woman to woman or man to man. Obviously that creates a lot of pain. It has created a lot of pain for me just because I've known some of these wonderful people who have these feelings, who have these thoughts, who have these desires, and I've worked with them in my official capacity as a church leader. ... I've sat with those that have tried for years to transition to a more traditional way of life and who haven't been able to produce those feelings in themselves that would permit them honestly to marry. ...

The thing that we have to ultimately say ... is, yes, there's nature; yes, there's nurture; but there's also agency. We all have the capacity and power to choose. If you're going to live your life within the framework of the Gospel, within the framework of our doctrine, then you've got to choose to marry someone of the opposite sex, and if you can't do that honestly, then your choice has to be to live a celibate life. That is a very difficult choice for the parents, for the young man, the young woman, for whoever's making that choice, and my heart goes out to them. I think we're asking a tremendous amount of them.

And yes, some people argue sometimes, well, for the gay person or the lesbian person, we're not asking more of them than we're asking of the single woman who never marries. But I long ago found in talking to them that we do ask for something different: In the case of the gay person, they really have no hope. A single woman, a single man who is heterosexual in their thinking always has the hope, always has the expectation that tomorrow they're going to meet someone and fall in love and that it can be sanctioned by the church. But a gay person who truly is committed to that way of life in his heart and mind doesn't have that hope. And to live life without hope on such a core issue, I think, is a very difficult thing.

We, again, as a church need to be, I think, even more charitable than we've been, more outreaching in a sense. A religion produces a culture, and culture has its stereotypes, has its mores. It's very difficult, for instance, in our culture not to be a returning missionary. What about the young man who chooses not to go, or the parents who marry and for whatever reasons don't have children, or the young woman who grows old without marrying, or the divorced person? I think we can be quite hard -- in a sense unwittingly, but nevertheless hard -- on those people in our culture, because we have cultural expectations, cultural ideals, and if you measure up to them, it's a wonderful life. If you don't, it could be very difficult. …

Science is moving toward the idea of a scientific origin for homosexuality. What if this isn't a choice, but the way people are born? Would that change the church's thinking about it?

I think that the origins of homosexuality are still very much up for grabs. ... I don't think the church could ever change its position, because gender, gender identification and the idea that a man and a woman coming together in marriage and to procreate and to have a family is such a core element in God's plan for our life. There's no room in doctrine, and there's no room within the plan of salvation, as we call it, or God's plan for our life, for homosexuality to be accepted. ...

At several points in your history there were changes in your doctrine. Is there any way, through revelation, this ban could be changed?

Again, through revelation, I suppose anything could be changed. But certainly, in the consistency with which God has dealt with us from the beginning, the elements of his plan for our life, the essential elements have remained unchanged. That's why in this context, in the context we were talking about here, the tension between the plan of salvation and the gay person, I just don't think there's room for the plan to accommodate the idea that someone can marry, live with, be romantically involved with someone of the same gender and can then be living in accord with God's plan or our life. It's too antithetical. Just cannot work within the confines of his plan. ...

I feel there's been a sea change in the Mormon community I've talked to. I still hear "abomination," but don't you feel there's been a change?

Yeah, I do. We're more enlightened. We're more accepting in the sense that we understand this is a condition that some people are dealing with and that even if it needs changing or even if it needs controlling, that can't be done without our support, our love, our empathy, our interest in them as people. That's much different, I'm sure, than it was in my youth. I hear very little terms of derision used anymore, for instance, yeah.

Clearly, there is still "derision" to overcome, on both sides of this issue.

To Elder Jensen, I give a hearty two-thumbs up in showing kindness, respect, a desire to understand, and a willingness to speak candidly about this issue, despite holding a fundamental difference of religious belief.

Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

Even better than "imagining" your hypothetical scenario, Jeff, let's ask your question about a "real" scenario:

Imagine if Mormons stated they were against gay relationships, and then Salt Lake City had gay Pride Parades, celebrating gay and lesbian relationships, showing gay groups, and celebrating those individuals who are gay.

A "Daniel" then tells us that, "well, some Mormons believe in gay relationships, but really the vast majority do not."

Now... how much credibility would you place on such a person to honestly reflect the reality?

Your perception of LGBT relationships is distorted, Jeff. That isn't surprising, given the harsh treatment you've tragically had to endure by some scornful and hateful individuals. I lament and condemn their behavior towards you, and what you've had to face. Any sympathy does not make your misperception of those of us who are gay any more accurate. Unfortunately, that perception, forged in the hurtful experiences you've endured, is not reflective of all LGBT individuals or relationships. It seems to me that your vehement insistance that your experiences must be true of all gays and lesbians is akin to a victim of abuse misguidedly overgeneralizing the negative behaviors and/or character flaws of his or her abuser(s) onto other similiar-but-unrelated individuals.

In fact, I believe that the perception you and Storm Rider are suggesting is out of step with LDS leadership at the highest levels on this point. No where have I seen from them the blanket condemnation that is being suggested, here. Consider, for example, the following address my Marlin K. Jensen (a man who has my respect, despite our divergent religious beliefs):

(Some may remember that Carol Lynn Pearson, the author of the Primary song Elder Jensen quotes, is well-known for having a husband who, after having children and several years of marriage, then came out of the closet as gay, ended their marriage and attempted to try to find a romantic gay relationship, subsequently contracted HIV, returned home, and passed away while in Carol Lynn's care).

I'm also continually grateful for the following portion of Elder Jensen's interview to PBS for their TV mini-series "The Mormons" which aired in 2006:

Clearly, there is still "derision" to overcome, on both sides of this issue.

To Elder Jensen, I give a hearty two-thumbs up in showing kindness, respect, a desire to understand, and a willingness to speak candidly about this issue, despite holding a fundamental difference of religious belief.

Daniel2

First off, there is no derision. I do not laugh at gay people and what they do, nor do I make gay jokes. Those are terribly wrong things to do. Indeed, I also feel sympathy for people who struggle with their sexuality, that too I can understand.

But I also know that within the gay community, especially in predominately gay communities it is indeed about hyper sexuality. The gay pride parades are simply one outlet used. When the gay community, which does not as a habit practice monogamy, which does not as a habit have family oriented parades, which does not as a habit understand moral behavior (look at how some believe you should take your children to gay pride parades, and then look at the photos).

The community makes abundantly clear where its direction lies. The community through its actions makes abundantly clear how they view others.

It is one reason I must reject the idea that homosexual men in their predominant setting in gay communities are willing to live monogamously, are willing to attempt to be faithful to one person, are willing to do away with the parodies reflected in the gay pride parades. No, they celebrate the very thing you are attempting so hard to tell us don't exist.

Yet we have photos, not just a few, but many, and documentation, we know for a fact that where the gay community is large there are these "white parties", highlights of the year for many, there are these parades, and of course there are those many many private parties where couples "take breaks" from their relationships. All of this leads to the conclusion that the need for marriage is little more than a selfish adjustment to their self centered desires of justification. It has nothing to do with rights, those were already given in California, as even some advocates here acknowledge. It is, however, everything to do with taking something away from another group, something they cannot have.

And when the other groups disagree? Well, you find the weakest minority of that group, pound them into the sand, take their jobs away whenever you can and imply that such is the lesson towards those who disagree with you.

I think that is perhaps the biggest lie of all from the gay community. They is no moral rubicon they are not willing to trust in order to force others to justify their lifestyles. You must sit in when they teach about the gay lifestyle. When they teach gay history, only positive images are allowed (even when history classes speak of negative aspects of other historical figures), that your livlihood might be threatened if you gain the ire of these people seeking to force justification.

And then we have the wonderful advocates for the gay community here who stylize the robbing of people's livlihood as good honest political discourse.

I stand with Elder Jensen, unfortunately the gay community cannot for its life see anything sympathetic towards anyone who does not accept their lifestyle.

If people choose the gay lifestyle as their life, that is fine. But do not force the rest of us, through the manipulation of law, or intimidation of the mob, to justify that lifestyle to ignore that it is wrong, and to force everyone to proclaim the parody of marriage to be the same as marriage. Elder Jensen would agree with me and tell you that you are on the wrong side of that argument. He may do it in a more loving manner, but he will certainly not agree with you.

[california boy]

I have been to two in San Fran and in Palm Springs. It is about sex.

As you can see from this

http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&tbib=2&q=gay+pride+parade&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=504

it is not the healthy wholesome atmosphere some people falsely portray it as. People who bring their children to it should be ashamed, they aren't good parents, and they reflect what is wrong with families. And it is the people in these photos that insist they are in loving relationships? One has to ask if they even understand what love really is, and how it is not sex.

One presumes then that you call those photos (taken and copied by the gay pride community) normal?

One supposes you think

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&hl=en&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&biw=1280&bih=504&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=thanksgiving+parades&oq=thanksgiving+parades&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3806l5853l0l6537l13l10l0l0l0l3l190l1177l3.7l10l0

are deviant.

Now that we have established the parameters you and the gay population hold as being "normal", tell us again why the gay parade groups somehow reflect a healthy wholesome society? Your denial shows just how out of touch with morality certain groups have become. When sexual perversions and deviant behavior is considered "normal", and even good for families. It only bolsters the importance of delineating a line between those who understand morality, and those who have gone so far as to believe "normal" is any perversion out there, and they are fine exposing it to children.

Tell me again the difference between what is seen in the photos you linked to and say a Britney Spears concert with her back up singers dancing around in their underwear, or Madona, or Cher or Lady Gaga or what you would see on any beach in America? Or the costumes you see at Cinco de Mayo parade, Yes it is a costume oriented parade. What a surprise. But it is your own mind that has whipped it up to be any more overtly sexual than other parades of this type. Or the costumes you see in a Mardi Gras parade?

Are you trying to say that only gay people dress in these kinds of costumes? And because of their costumes they wear at a gay pride parade, you are willing to sterotype and condemn an entire group as not possibly being able to have a loving relationship? If so, here are a few more groups you should put on your list to label as deviant. And can you explain to us your need to go to two gay pride parades if you find guys dressed in speedos offensive? You might want to stay away from the entire continent of Europe btw where entire families go to the beach dressed in speedos and women are topless. But then of course Europeans can not possibly love their families or be in stable relationships.

[Daniel2]

Tell me again the difference between what is seen in the photos you linked to and say a Britney Spears concert with her back up singers dancing around in their underwear, or Madona, or Cher or Lady Gaga or what you would see on any beach in America? Or the costumes you see at Cinco de Mayo parade, Yes it is a costume oriented parade. What a surprise. But it is your own mind that has whipped it up to be any more overtly sexual than other parades of this type. Or the costumes you see in a Mardi Gras parade?

Are you trying to say that only gay people dress in these kinds of costumes? And because of their costumes they wear at a gay pride parade, you are willing to sterotype and condemn an entire group as not possibly being able to have a loving relationship? If so, here are a few more groups you should put on your list to label as deviant. And can you explain to us your need to go to two gay pride parades if you find guys dressed in speedos offensive? You might want to stay away from the entire continent of Europe btw where entire families go to the beach dressed in speedos and women are topless. But then of course Europeans can not possibly love their families or be in stable relationships.

Apparently, California Boy, Jeff believes that everyone who's Irish in America always wears shamrock green, black shoes with buckles, red hair, and guzzles beer all day. Or people who celebrate Thanksgiving dress either like Puritain Piligrims or giant inflatable cartoon characters and dine on Turkey and Cranberry dressing all year long. Or those that celebrate Christmas wear red and white fur suits, ride reindeer-pulled sleighs, and always dine on peppermint confections all year long. Or all Americans that celebrate American Independance always wear Red, White, and Blue and are pyromaniacs all year long... The list could continue, of course. My point being that Jeff has a hard time separating the Parade- or Party-heightened behaviors of a few members of the LGBT community from the vast majority of parade-attendees' (not to mention NON-parade attendees'!) ordinary, daily lives.

Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

Tell me again the difference between what is seen in the photos you linked to and say a Britney Spears concert with her back up singers dancing around in their underwear, or Madona, or Cher or Lady Gaga or what you would see on any beach in America? Or the costumes you see at Cinco de Mayo parade, Yes it is a costume oriented parade. What a surprise. But it is your own mind that has whipped it up to be any more overtly sexual than other parades of this type. Or the costumes you see in a Mardi Gras parade?

Let us begin by stating that Brittany Spears doesn't want the government to force us to be like her or to accept her music. The Cinco de Mayo parade is vastly different from a Gay Pride parade.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cinco+de+mayo&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&biw=1280&bih=504&site=webhp&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=GeoyTpP8DYO30AG3x-n6Cw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ

Gay pride parade

http://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride+parade&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&biw=1280&bih=504&site=webhp&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=N-oyTrvDHOHN0AHpt-SiDA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBUQ_AUoAQ

And you of course do not see how one is hypersexualized and the other is a celebration of culture and people with traditions (such as marriage). Do you want to perhaps change the definition of a cinco de mayo parade so that it is a gay pride parade? It seems you want to do the same with marriage.

In essence your comparison of Mardis Gras, and Gay Pride parades, both of which reflect an immoral aspect of society, both of which should be roundly condemned. And yet you see it as "acceptable" for women and children (per your earlier post when you stated happily that "families were there). You seek to compare depraved aspects of society and then say this is why those parades and the people in them should be accepted as "normal" and their view of relationships as "marriage"? I don't think so. It would be insane to endorse such people.

Are you trying to say that only gay people dress in these kinds of costumes? And because of their costumes they wear at a gay pride parade, you are willing to sterotype and condemn an entire group as not possibly being able to have a loving relationship? If so, here are a few more groups you should put on your list to label as deviant. And can you explain to us your need to go to two gay pride parades if you find guys dressed in speedos offensive? You might want to stay away from the entire continent of Europe btw where entire families go to the beach dressed in speedos and women are topless. But then of course Europeans can not possibly love their families or be in stable relationships.

I am stating quite clearly that sex not culture is what drives gay pride parades, parades I might add that are completely influenced by the gay community. The gay community which chooses to reflect the best their community has to offer. If you think a man dressed in leather wearing speedos is simply a man wearing speedos and has no other context you are being more than a little false in your presumption. Or a woman in leather with a riding crop, riding another woman is just a female looking for a horse, then you are being insanely disengenuous because no one here believes that to be the case, not even you. We can see how "loving relationships" are denoted in gay pride parades, how the gay community shows "family oriented parades that reflect what believe to be important in these pictures. They reflect that the gay community has no idea what it means to be moral, they reflect that the gay community doesn't care about family, but does care about hypersexualizing everything about what they do. The reflect a lack of shame.

And what are you and Daniel left doing? You are basically saying "Don't believe your eyes, don't look at the pictures, really, it isn't there, those are "normal" people." In a warped sense they might be normal. Perhaps warped people call them normal as they engage and display sadomasochistic extremism and sadly reflect the worst that society has to offer. And this you consider "normal"? I consider it neither normal or worthy nor inclusive of healthy for families.

Not sure how you were raised California Boy, but your parents should have taught you better as to what is right, versus indulgence in what is wrong, regardless of orientation.

[Jeff K.]

Apparently, California Boy, Jeff believes that everyone who's Irish in America always wears shamrock green, black shoes with buckles, red hair, and guzzles beer all day. Or people who celebrate Thanksgiving dress either like Puritain Piligrims or giant inflatable cartoon characters and dine on Turkey and Cranberry dressing all year long. Or those that celebrate Christmas wear red and white fur suits, ride reindeer-pulled sleighs, and always dine on peppermint confections all year long. Or all Americans that celebrate American Independance always wear Red, White, and Blue and are pyromaniacs all year long... The list could continue, of course. My point being that Jeff has a hard time separating the Parade- or Party-heightened behaviors of a few members of the LGBT community from the vast majority of parade-attendees' (not to mention NON-parade attendees'!) ordinary, daily lives.

Daniel2

Daniel, as usual, you presume that somehow because I point out the gay communities actions and how they, with no outside influence act, reflects something wrong. Then you would have to call observation wrong. And your attempt to corner me into some limited stance reflects the duality by which you post on this board.

My point being that Jeff has a hard time separating the Parade- or Party-heightened behaviors of a few members of the LGBT community from the vast majority of parade-attendees' (not to mention NON-parade attendees'!) ordinary, daily lives.

No, I look at what the gay community does when it is left to themselves to plan and do something. The gay pride parade reflects it, it is specifically for one purpose, for the gay community and organized by the gay community. And how does the gay community celebrate itself? Does it have family oriented programs? Does it celebrate and encourage the long term relationship or union? No, it does not. It chooses to reflect what it wants to do. The gay pride parades are an icon of the freedom which the gay cultures wishes us all to indulge it.

You haven't countered that argument, all you have really done Daniel is highlight your duplicity.

Are there thousands of protest letters for example from those non participants complaining that the gay pride parade doesn't promote families? No, in fact there is no protest from the gay community for such behavior.

And that is the type of community that you Daniel, don't want us to be aware of, and that California boy calls "normal".

[Daniel2]

And what are you and Daniel left doing? You are basically saying "Don't believe your eyes, don't look at the pictures, really, it isn't there, those are "normal" people." In a warped sense they might be normal. Perhaps warped people call them normal as they engage and display sadomasochistic extremism and sadly reflect the worst that society has to offer. And this you consider "normal"? I consider it neither normal or worthy nor inclusive of healthy for families.

Not sure how you were raised California Boy, but your parents should have taught you better as to what is right, versus indulgence in what is wrong, regardless of orientation.

You misunderstand and completely misrepresent what I'm "left doing." As usual.

NO WHERE have I said, "Don't believe your eyes."

NO WHERE have I said, "Don't look at the pictures."

NO WHERE have I said, "It isn't there."

NO WHERE have I said, "Those are 'normal' people."

It seemse that the abusively-induced blackened lenses through which you view LGBT individuals and relationships obscure your ability to take what I write at face value.

What I HAVE said is: Believe your eyes. Look at the pictures. They are there. Whether "normal" or "abnormal" is simply a subjective label depending on the eye of the beholder.

THEN recognize that any such individuals who focus on radical expressions of sexuality (whether at Pride or at Mardi Gras) should be taken to be expressions of themselves.

Further recognize that any such individuals are NOT "true" or "universal" expressions of anyone and everyone else that share their same either heterosexual or homosexual orientation, and recognize that their behavior is NOT representative of all other relationships that are of either their same heterosexual or homosexual orientation.

In short, I'm not asking you to "ignore" or "deny" the existence of anything. I'm asking you to believe your eyes, but be wary of casting unrighteous judgement on entire classes of people based on false overgeneralizations.

Daniel2

[Daniel2]

No, I look at what the gay community does when it is left to themselves to plan and do something. The gay pride parade reflects it, it is specifically for one purpose, for the gay community and organized by the gay community. And how does the gay community celebrate itself? Does it have family oriented programs? Does it celebrate and encourage the long term relationship or union? No, it does not. It chooses to reflect what it wants to do. The gay pride parades are an icon of the freedom which the gay cultures wishes us all to indulge it.

You haven't countered that argument, all you have really done Daniel is highlight your duplicity.

Are there thousands of protest letters for example from those non participants complaining that the gay pride parade doesn't promote families? No, in fact there is no protest from the gay community for such behavior.

And that is the type of community that you Daniel, don't want us to be aware of, and that California boy calls "normal".

Jeff, would you say you consider me to be a member of "the gay community"?

I do consider myself a member of that community---though there are many diverse individuals and organizations within the gay community that I personally disagree with and which do NOT reflect myself, my values, or my beliefs.

As a member of the diverse gay community, I am actively invovled in many aspects of gay culture. I co-founded the Utah Gay Father's Association. It's charter, which I wrote, states:

The Utah Gay Father's Yahoo Group is the means of coordinating monthly, in-person social gatherings of gay dads along the Wasatch Front. Our focus is to embrace, affirm, and improve ourselves as gay fathers and men; to socialize and share the unique and universal joys, strengths, and challenges that we face as gay fathers in Utah. Activities include monthly pot-luck dinners hosted at members' homes, followed by group discussions about what it means to be a gay father, current issues group members may be facing, helpful suggestions, venting, personal therapeutic or legal recommendations, etc.

RESPECT for all members is key in our group, regardless of where we each may be on our own personal journeys--single, committed to our opposite-gender or same-gender spouses/partners, divorced, separated, or widowered; our children and grandchildren are all ages; some of us may not yet be fathers; some are atheists or agnostics, others are spiritual or religious from a variety of backgrounds (Catholic, LDS, UU, Jewish, Baptist, etc); our skin color may be as varied as the countries we originally come from. So long as the attitude is one of respect and value for others in the group, all are welcome.

Because group members come from a variety of different backgrounds and levels of openness about their sexual orientations within their external relationships, and because the social, familial, and vocational landscape within Utah is not always understanding of being gay or bisexual, a strict requirement of our group is to respect the privacy of each member. Prior to participating in group discussion, everyone will be asked to respect the confidences of others, maintaining a safe space in which all can share our struggles and find solutions that may work for us, individually.

We hope to have fun activities that can improve our friendships and strengthen our our abilities as fathers and sons, brothers and uncles that are "always becoming, always complete."

At our first meeting in my home in Pleasant Grove, we had 18 fathers attend; 17 were returned missionaries and had married in the temple; half were BYU graduatesm, a third were grandfathers, all of us shared a desire to be better fathers and find the best ways to try to be supportive of our ex-wives in the wake of both their and our unworkable dreams of Celestial heterosexual marriage after shattered promises from our priesthood leaders that we'd become heterosexual if we just tried hard enough, just had enough faith, just read the scriptures and attended the temple and magnified our callings, believing in Spencer W. Kimball's promise that "the door leading to heterosexuality would be opened for homosexuals, yet we must knock at that door “until your knuckles are bloody, till your head is bruised. It can be done.” [see "The Miracle of Forgiveness"].

I stood in awe in hearing the stories of hope and courage and loss and failure and ultimate redemption of men who had given their all, staking their very lives and love on the promise of the church. They had asked for bread, and had been given a stone. And yet, most had forgiven the church and moved on. And all of us remain profoundly grateful for our children, wanting to make connections with other fathers to improve our family relationships, grow as fathers, and strengthen our ties with and lessen the stress on our children.

Given the struggles I face in my own life, I eventually stepped away from leading that group, but continue to remain in awe at the great fathers and men who have continued carrying it's torch, beyond what I originally started. The Utah Gay Father's Association walked in the Pride Parade this year, and were awarded the "Best New Entry" award in the parade. Theose gay fathers that marched each were fully clothed and wore green t-shirts displaying the logo of the Father's Association. Many marched with their children; some of their former wives even marched with them.

I and others of my friends (including some fathers) chose not to participate, because Pride Parades are not something I'm comfortable with, and which do not reflect my sense of self.

However, I am proud of those man who chose to participate. Their presences speaks to their desire to show Utah and Salt Lake City the source of their "gay pride"--that of being a loving, supportive, and involved father to their children. The did not flaunt their sexuality; they did not focus on sex. Their participation directly contradicts your assertion that "Gay Pride" does not "have family oriented programs," or that it does not "celebrate and encourage the long term relationship or union," or that it doesn't "promote families."

The Father's Association is just one example of members of the gay community who work towards building stronger parents and families. There are many gay-affirming churches who also march in Pride Parades, many of whom show support for committed, monogomous, gay marriages--which further directly contradict your misguided and false accusations that Pride parades are only comprised of nearly-naked, speedo- or leather-wearing oversexed people engaged in abnormal, inappropriately-public sex acts.

You speak from profoundly breathtaking ignorance, Jeff, and it is difficult to not to grow weary of your hubris. I will be the first to admit that I certainly don't know everything, and I recognize it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. With all honest compassion I can muster, and in the sincerest of intentions, I express my hope that you'll to find healing from the negativity that you've suffered and learn to let go and forgive, so that your eyes won't be blinded by your ongoing misjudgement of LGBT individuals and our families.

Best,

Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

Allow me to state clearly, that the areas where the gay community has the greatest influence, you also see the greatest depravity.

Palm Springs, San Francisco. There influence there is without question. It is followed by "white parties", "gay pride parades" and let us not forget the many distinctive parties and "clubs" in place to ensure a good healthy interaction.

So it is nice that you have the gay fathers association, such anomalies in the gay community are just that. And yes, even with your post you show are asking us not to look at what communities heavily influenced by gay community do, just what you and small groups sometimes anecdotally do.

Again, where are the protests from the gay community against the bad behavior? It doesn't exist, and you still haven't shown any counter argument to the poor showing done by a group that "wants marriage" to include their parodies of a relationship. I am sure they will want "short marriages" too, being, you know, for the activity they are in with their various partners, as well as medium marriages for vacations, and "long marriages" for more than a year. They will define marriage and want it in so many ways, because they will never, ever be happy, because they cannot know what marriage is.

[Jeff K.]

You speak from profoundly breathtaking ignorance, Jeff, and it is difficult to not to grow weary of your hubris. I will be the first to admit that I certainly don't know everything, and I recognize it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. With all honest compassion I can muster, and in the sicerest of intentions, I express my hope that you'll to find healing from the negativity that you've suffered and learn to let go and forgive, so that your eyes won't be blinded by your ongoing misjudgement of LGBT individuals and our families.

Living in the Palm Springs area, I would say I have greater knowledge of the gay community than you could possibly know. How they interact in their councils, what the council goals are. You live in Utah, good for you. The state does not allow full reign for such groups to do as they please as it is in California.

So when you imply one aspect, you are actually asking me to forget about the council sessions I have sat in when they bolstered strip clubs for gay men and women, when they said its not about families its about rights, when they openly discussed the white parties coming up.

And nary a protest from people like you Darin, not one. As one person put it.. "its all good".

And you wonder why I think the gay population has no idea what the relationship of marriage is about.

[Daniel2]

Living in the Palm Springs area, I would say I have greater knowledge of the gay community than you could possibly know. How they interact in their councils, what the council goals are. You live in Utah, good for you. The state does not allow full reign for such groups to do as they please as it is in California.

So when you imply one aspect, you are actually asking me to forget about the council sessions I have sat in when they bolstered strip clubs for gay men and women, when they said its not about families its about rights, when they openly discussed the white parties coming up.

And nary a protest from people like you Darin, not one. As one person put it.. "its all good".

And you wonder why I think the gay population has no idea what the relationship of marriage is about.

I moved to Utah three years ago from Connecticut--where gay marriage is legal. The Utah Father's Assocation I formed, here, was patterened after a much larger Connecticut Gay Father's Association, which I was priviledged to be a part of, out there. This year, the Utah Gay Father's Association sponsored a trip to Seattle to parter with the Seattle Gay Father's Association to march in their Pride Parade, up there. Such groups exist in California, and, I'd wager, probably every state in the nation.

As I mentioned, this year's SLC Pride honored the Father's Association with the Best New Entry. There is a Yahoo Group, a website (www.utahgayfathers.com), and a Facebook page. The evidence of all of the above is hardly "anecdotal" or isolated. You just aren't looking at our community, except to focus on the mote that you've seen in San Francisco and Palm Springs (which, as I mentioned, also have Father's Associations). There are gay bingo clubs. Gay rodeo assocations. Gay travel groups. SAGE is a group for elderly gay groups. There are gay churches, gay service groups, gay charities, gay outreach programs, gay meals-on-wheels, gay AIDS caregivers, etc. etc. etc.

Yet you focus on the sex acts of some. I'm sorry I'm not following you around to point my finger and loudly condemn whatever injustices you perceive. I don't have time or energy to do so--I'm too busy trying to care for my own children and my elderly and increasingly-frail parents; to raise money for legal bills to keep fighting the angry and false accusations of my ex-wife and overcome the subsequent parental alienation my children are drowning in, not to mention trying to support and secure the same marriage rights that heterosexuals enjoy. Like so many others, my perhaps-too-obscure life is my example, my pride, and my voice--God knows I'm neither perfect nor a Saint, and I make plenty of messy mistakes, but I (like so many others) strive to be a better man, father, son, brother, and uncle each day; it's a pity you can't witness all of our lives to hear that message.

"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." For those of us who aren't fixed on sex, or fixated on condemning sex, there's a whole world of service, love, work, forgiveness, and compassion--regardless of whether we're straight or gay.

Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

Daniel, I have seen what the gay community does when it has overwhelming influence. I would not want it for my family. They reflect what definately should not be embraced as a family friendly community. And you may point out an anecdotal club here and there, but it does not reflect what the gay community wants. Gay communities do however reflect what they want, and frankly, from what I have seen, no father should want that for their children.

You keep telling us, or rather implying that we should look at some of your little anecdotal clubs and you don't want to talk about the communities at large and what they do (or how they intimidate others to do what they do). You are left desperately attempting to paint me as a single dimensional being with no experience, when in fact I have had much more exposure than it appears than you have in terms of dealing with the gay community at large.

Finally, any father should be ashamed if they do not raise their voice in protest against what is wrong behavior. Silence is acceptance. If you and your other "dads" do nothing more than say "oh well", you in effect endorse what should not be.

And with that alone the term marriage is not applicable to the gay community, since they haven't seemed to step beyond the term "sex".

[Daniel2]

Psst... Jeff, your experiences are just as "anecdotal" as mine.

Knock yourself out with the ongoing condemnation, Mr. Multi-dimensionally Experienced One. I'm done in this thread for now.

Daniel2

[Jeff K.]

Not nearly, as anecdotal given the photos and displays and of course dealing in an area with a predominant gay community that makes its full intentions made without apology.

You are not nearly as exposed in your somewhat limited gay community.

That is the one thing those in the gay community cannot seem to understand. When they are making all of these demands, people are actually watching them, and you Darin presume sadly that people can be hoodwinked by some kind words when the facts and photos are so blatently anti family, and anti relationship.

[Jeff K.]

To take it a bit further, a news article in another discussion...

The gray lady's sexual agenda revealed

Gay marriage supporters called liberationists "hope that gay marriage will help knock marriage off its cultural pedestal altogether," Douthat explained.

To liberationists, if traditional marriage becomes the "gold standard" for relationships both gay and straight, the gay marriage movement will have "failed in its deeper mission," which he describes as introducing a "greater freedom than can be found in the one-size-fits-all rules of marriage."

The apparent hope is that legalized gay marriages will be more openly sexually promiscuous than straight marriage, providing an example that would then influence heterosexual couples to adopt the same open-marriage lifestyle.

In a June article called "Married, With Infidelities," the Times used gay activist and columnist Dan Savage's open marriage as the new model for straight marriages that should take root culturally from the legalization of gay marriage.

In the article the Times praised Savage for arguing against the American obsession with strict fidelity. "In its place he proposes a sensibility that we might call American Gay Male, after that community's tolerance for pornography, fetishes and a variety of partnered arrangements, from strict monogamy to wide openness," the Times article reads.

"A more flexible attitude within marriage may be just what the straight community needs," the article continues. "Treating monogamy, rather than honesty or joy or humor, as the main indicator of a successful marriage gives people unrealistic expectations of themselves and their partners."

While straight marriage has its share of infidelity, studies show that gay male marriages are often very different from traditional straight marriages. Gay partnerships are far more culturally accepting of infidelity before the fact, and in many it is even expected. According to the book Sex in America: A Definitive Survey, 100 percent of male gay couples in the study experienced infidelity in their relationships in the first five years and those who stayed together past the 10-year mark did so only by accepting the painful reality of infidelity in their relationships. Some 85 percent of the couples reported that their greatest relationship problems centered on issues related to outside relationships.

Of course you will be told not to pay attention that that, somehow it doesn't represent the gay community.....

The information from the book "Sex in America" seems to underline what I am saying and undermine Darin's position. How is it a straight man understands the evidence so well while a gay man will be blind to it?

[california boy]

Let us begin by stating that Brittany Spears doesn't want the government to force us to be like her or to accept her music. The Cinco de Mayo parade is vastly different from a Gay Pride parade.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cinco+de+mayo&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&biw=1280&bih=504&site=webhp&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=GeoyTpP8DYO30AG3x-n6Cw&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ

Gay pride parade

http://www.google.com/search?q=gay+pride+parade&hl=en&qscrl=1&nord=1&rlz=1T4TSND_enUS413US413&biw=1280&bih=504&site=webhp&prmd=ivns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=N-oyTrvDHOHN0AHpt-SiDA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&ved=0CBUQ_AUoAQ

And you of course do not see how one is hypersexualized and the other is a celebration of culture and people with traditions (such as marriage). Do you want to perhaps change the definition of a cinco de mayo parade so that it is a gay pride parade? It seems you want to do the same with marriage.

In essence your comparison of Mardis Gras, and Gay Pride parades, both of which reflect an immoral aspect of society, both of which should be roundly condemned. And yet you see it as "acceptable" for women and children (per your earlier post when you stated happily that "families were there). You seek to compare depraved aspects of society and then say this is why those parades and the people in them should be accepted as "normal" and their view of relationships as "marriage"? I don't think so. It would be insane to endorse such people.

I am stating quite clearly that sex not culture is what drives gay pride parades, parades I might add that are completely influenced by the gay community. The gay community which chooses to reflect the best their community has to offer. If you think a man dressed in leather wearing speedos is simply a man wearing speedos and has no other context you are being more than a little false in your presumption. Or a woman in leather with a riding crop, riding another woman is just a female looking for a horse, then you are being insanely disengenuous because no one here believes that to be the case, not even you. We can see how "loving relationships" are denoted in gay pride parades, how the gay community shows "family oriented parades that reflect what believe to be important in these pictures. They reflect that the gay community has no idea what it means to be moral, they reflect that the gay community doesn't care about family, but does care about hypersexualizing everything about what they do. The reflect a lack of shame.

And what are you and Daniel left doing? You are basically saying "Don't believe your eyes, don't look at the pictures, really, it isn't there, those are "normal" people." In a warped sense they might be normal. Perhaps warped people call them normal as they engage and display sadomasochistic extremism and sadly reflect the worst that society has to offer. And this you consider "normal"? I consider it neither normal or worthy nor inclusive of healthy for families.

Not sure how you were raised California Boy, but your parents should have taught you better as to what is right, versus indulgence in what is wrong, regardless of orientation.

Jeff, we aren't asking you to buy our music, we are asking to be afforded the same civil rights. You as stating that because gays have a parade where they are dressed in underwear and speedos they should not have the right to be legally married. I simply am saying if that is the criteria on who should be allowed to marry in this country then there is a much longer list of people who should not be allowed to be married. You could open up just about any magazine in this country and start excluding those who should not be allowed to marry by what they are wearing in the underwear ads and swim suit ads. If the criteria is who should get married is based on how they paint their faces then you should be including a whole lot of people who celebrate Halloween. And of course we should ban civll marriage to ALL straight people because of the sexy costumes you see in a Mardi Gras parade that are absolutely no different than the costumes worn during a gay pride parade. NOW DO YOU GET IT?

[california boy]

Again, where are the protests from the gay community against the bad behavior? It doesn't exist, and you still haven't shown any counter argument to the poor showing done by a group that "wants marriage" to include their parodies of a relationship. I am sure they will want "short marriages" too, being, you know, for the activity they are in with their various partners, as well as medium marriages for vacations, and "long marriages" for more than a year. They will define marriage and want it in so many ways, because they will never, ever be happy, because they cannot know what marriage is.

And just where are the protests against unwed pregnancies. Where are the protests against divorce that leave families torn apart and children shuffled between two fighting parents without even a stable place to sleep and go to school. Where is the protests agains serial divorces. Jeff, you are painting the failings of part of one group as a reason to not allow the entire group to marry. Give me a break. If the criteria was that an entire group of people had to be moral according to your yardstick, who would be left to allow to be married. Sorry but in this country, that is NOT how we decide who gets to be married and who does not get to be married. There is plenty of immorality in both the straight and gay communities. To say that one group is solely immoral is just incorrect.

Sorry, but we don't decide who should get married and who should not get married based on the immorality of the group. Until a requirement of marriage is that both people are VIRGINS then your point is without merrit. Do you have any idea how few people in this country would qualify for marriage if being a virgin and morally clean was the requirement for marrriage?? Do you have any idea how immoral say LA is within the straight community? Should we outlaw marriage in LA because there is a lot of immorality in that city? Immoral behavior is immoral beahvior no matter whether you are straight or gay. Your argument is pointless and solely directed at the gay community because of your prejudices against that community.

[california boy]

Not nearly, as anecdotal given the photos and displays and of course dealing in an area with a predominant gay community that makes its full intentions made without apology.

You are not nearly as exposed in your somewhat limited gay community.

That is the one thing those in the gay community cannot seem to understand. When they are making all of these demands, people are actually watching them, and you Darin presume sadly that people can be hoodwinked by some kind words when the facts and photos are so blatently anti family, and anti relationship.

Jeff, if this was not a Mormon based thread, I could put picture for picture images from the gay pride parade against pictures from the straight community. What is your point and where are you pointing out every immorality in the straight community? Does that mean you support immorality in the straight community? You are so blinded by what you see. There is a mote and beam thing going on that you just can not see. Maybe you should be stepping back from this ridiculous argument and take in the words of Christ when pointing to the faults of others.

[Storm Rider]

First let me address the whole pride parade thing. I have been to about 5 pride parades in San Francisco. To characterize them as sexual is just not factual. You might be interested to know that the San Francisco Gay Pride Parade is the BIGGEST event San Francisco hosts each year. Over ! MILLION people attend the event. The majority of those attending are straight families. Yes families who choose to bring their children to watch the parade. The parade is also broadcast LIVE on local television. To make it out to be some kind of deviant sexual parade is just nonsense. period. In reality it is a pretty boring parade with every real estate company, church group, civic organization, public official etc marching down the street in support of equality for this part of America. Yeah some people believe gays have rights too. In fact the majority of Americans support gay marriage. There is nothing that goes on during a gay pride parade that also goes on at Carnival or Mardi Gras parade.

Do you get that your perverted views are in the minority? Not everyone falls for the diatribe you seem to want to give. Oral sex and **** sex is not restricted to the gay population. Do you rant and rave about how straight couples have sex as well? Is this some fetish of yours? It may not be what you want to do, but like I said, you are in no position to dictate how you think people should behave in the privacy of their own bedrooms. Unless you can specifically tell how it effects you personally, then you have no point. You are just one individual who happens to be against gay relationships. Fortunately you are not in the majority. And like I said, I don't really care what you think. Your views don't effect my life any more than my view effect yours.

When all else fails attack the messenger. That always seems to work for groups that move in this same circle. Perversion is perversion; it is clearly found with the gay community; however, they do not own by any stretch of the imagination. To admit that the gay community is perverse does not mean that perversion does not exist elsewhere. Do you actually think that finding perversion elsewhere excuses gay perversion?

I hail from Seattle and I have seen several films on the San Francisco "Pride" parade. You actually want the US society to accept you as if you are just innocent little boys and girls, skipping down the street? The problem is that we have eyes and see what they worship by the way they parade. Behavior is the best way to understand the heart's desire; words have become too cheap on this topic.

There is not need to use **** to blank out the perversion of gay lifestyle. Be honest enough to talk straight (no pun intended; levity never hurts), to talk honestly about the gay lifestyle. This is the topic no one in the gay community wants to talk about openly; they want to hide it from society at large for fear if everyone knew how truly perverted this was, the entire argument would be lost. Just be honest.

[california boy]

When all else fails attack the messenger. That always seems to work for groups that move in this same circle. Perversion is perversion; it is clearly found with the gay community; however, they do not own by any stretch of the imagination. To admit that the gay community is perverse does not mean that perversion does not exist elsewhere. Do you actually think that finding perversion elsewhere excuses gay perversion?

I hail from Seattle and I have seen several films on the San Francisco "Pride" parade. You actually want the US society to accept you as if you are just innocent little boys and girls, skipping down the street? The problem is that we have eyes and see what they worship by the way they parade. Behavior is the best way to understand the heart's desire; words have become too cheap on this topic.

There is not need to use **** to blank out the perversion of gay lifestyle. Be honest enough to talk straight (no pun intended; levity never hurts), to talk honestly about the gay lifestyle. This is the topic no one in the gay community wants to talk about openly; they want to hide it from society at large for fear if everyone knew how truly perverted this was, the entire argument would be lost. Just be honest.

I don't get what you want to talk about. Are you asking to discuss the immorality in the gay community? Sure of course it exists. Is this the forum to get explicit about gay sex? Personally I don't think it is. Do you want to also talk about the immorality in the straight community? Is this the forum to talk explicitly about straight sex? Personally I don't think it is appropriate on this forum as well.

What is your point? Are you suggesting that we live in a country where denying the right to marry is based on their moral behavior? Just how many straight people would be eligible for marriage if being morally clean was the criteria? How many straight men would be denied marriage because they enjoy oral sex. What do you want as the moral criteria for someone applying for a marriage license? Can you explain why you think a moral yardstick should only be applied to the gay community and not the straight community?

If you are interested in policing peoples morality as a criteria for the civil rights of that person, perhaps I could recommend a few countries in the middle east that you would be more comfortable in living.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 29 July 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:

Let us begin by stating that Brittany Spears doesn't want the government to force us to be like her or to accept her music. The Cinco de Mayo parade is vastly different from a Gay Pride parade.

http://www.google.co...ved=0CBQQ_AUoAQ

Gay pride parade

http://www.google.co...ved=0CBUQ_AUoAQ

And you of course do not see how one is hypersexualized and the other is a celebration of culture and people with traditions (such as marriage). Do you want to perhaps change the definition of a cinco de mayo parade so that it is a gay pride parade? It seems you want to do the same with marriage.

In essence your comparison of Mardis Gras, and Gay Pride parades, both of which reflect an immoral aspect of society, both of which should be roundly condemned. And yet you see it as "acceptable" for women and children (per your earlier post when you stated happily that "families were there). You seek to compare depraved aspects of society and then say this is why those parades and the people in them should be accepted as "normal" and their view of relationships as "marriage"? I don't think so. It would be insane to endorse such people.

I am stating quite clearly that sex not culture is what drives gay pride parades, parades I might add that are completely influenced by the gay community. The gay community which chooses to reflect the best their community has to offer. If you think a man dressed in leather wearing speedos is simply a man wearing speedos and has no other context you are being more than a little false in your presumption. Or a woman in leather with a riding crop, riding another woman is just a female looking for a horse, then you are being insanely disengenuous because no one here believes that to be the case, not even you. We can see how "loving relationships" are denoted in gay pride parades, how the gay community shows "family oriented parades that reflect what believe to be important in these pictures. They reflect that the gay community has no idea what it means to be moral, they reflect that the gay community doesn't care about family, but does care about hypersexualizing everything about what they do. The reflect a lack of shame.

And what are you and Daniel left doing? You are basically saying "Don't believe your eyes, don't look at the pictures, really, it isn't there, those are "normal" people." In a warped sense they might be normal. Perhaps warped people call them normal as they engage and display sadomasochistic extremism and sadly reflect the worst that society has to offer. And this you consider "normal"? I consider it neither normal or worthy nor inclusive of healthy for families.

Not sure how you were raised California Boy, but your parents should have taught you better as to what is right, versus indulgence in what is wrong, regardless of orientation.

Jeff, we aren't asking you to buy our music, we are asking to be afforded the same civil rights. You as stating that because gays have a parade where they are dressed in underwear and speedos they should not have the right to be legally married. I simply am saying if that is the criteria on who should be allowed to marry in this country then there is a much longer list of people who should not be allowed to be married. You could open up just about any magazine in this country and start excluding those who should not be allowed to marry by what they are wearing in the underwear ads and swim suit ads. If the criteria is who should get married is based on how they paint their faces then you should be including a whole lot of people who celebrate Halloween. And of course we should ban civll marriage to ALL straight people because of the sexy costumes you see in a Mardi Gras parade that are absolutely no different than the costumes worn during a gay pride parade. NOW DO YOU GET IT?

You are forcing everyone to change their definition of marriage. We know its not about rights, California gave the community all the rights it asked for in regard to marriage. Nothing was left out. So when you say it was about "rights" you are spreading something that is not true.

So why extend marriage to a group that does not hold marriage sacred. In my opinion the group simply wants what it doesn't have. And in a childish churlish way, they think by forcing others to call what they do one thing, they can have what they simply cannot understand.

To the question of Mardi Gras, it is a Catholic tradition and one condemned by most Catholics, in fact many people condemn its wanton behavior. They see it as something that happens when society goes wrong and allows a libertine attitude. People in the straight community protest it, send in letters, even have marches against it. I have yet to see a protest by gays against the extreme hypersexualized actions of the gay pride parade. It speaks volutmes to the type of society you belong to.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 29 July 2011 - 12:22 PM, said:

Again, where are the protests from the gay community against the bad behavior? It doesn't exist, and you still haven't shown any counter argument to the poor showing done by a group that "wants marriage" to include their parodies of a relationship. I am sure they will want "short marriages" too, being, you know, for the activity they are in with their various partners, as well as medium marriages for vacations, and "long marriages" for more than a year. They will define marriage and want it in so many ways, because they will never, ever be happy, because they cannot know what marriage is.

And just where are the protests against unwed pregnancies. Where are the protests against divorce that leave families torn apart and children shuffled between two fighting parents without even a stable place to sleep and go to school. Where is the protests agains serial divorces. Jeff, you are painting the failings of part of one group as a reason to not allow the entire group to marry. Give me a break. If the criteria was that an entire group of people had to be moral according to your yardstick, who would be left to allow to be married. Sorry but in this country, that is NOT how we decide who gets to be married and who does not get to be married. There is plenty of immorality in both the straight and gay communities. To say that one group is solely immoral is just incorrect.

Sorry, but we don't decide who should get married and who should not get married based on the immorality of the group. Until a requirement of marriage is that both people are VIRGINS then your point is without merrit. Do you have any idea how few people in this country would qualify for marriage if being a virgin and morally clean was the requirement for marrriage?? Do you have any idea how immoral say LA is within the straight community? Should we outlaw marriage in LA because there is a lot of immorality in that city? Immoral behavior is immoral beahvior no matter whether you are straight or gay. Your argument is pointless and solely directed at the gay community because of your prejudices against that community.

You are kidding right? People are doing their best to undo the things in society you consider "normal" or ok. Everyone that I know of seeks to make marriage permanent with counselors, help of all kinds. No one says divorce is good. But you say the gay pride parade is a good thing, nothing wrong with it, its normal and for families. The immorality in the gay community is not being fought by the gay community, it is being emgraced and magnified. That is a stark difference between those who think marriage is important and those who simply want the term marriage. How can you want something you cannot understand.

[Storm Rider]

I don't get what you want to talk about. Are you asking to discuss the immorality in the gay community? Sure of course it exists. Is this the forum to get explicit about gay sex? Personally I don't think it is. Do you want to also talk about the immorality in the straight community? Is this the forum to talk explicitly about straight sex? Personally I don't think it is appropriate on this forum as well.

What is your point? Are you suggesting that we live in a country where denying the right to marry is based on their moral behavior? Just how many straight people would be eligible for marriage if being morally clean was the criteria? How many straight men would be denied marriage because they enjoy oral sex. What do you want as the moral criteria for someone applying for a marriage license? Can you explain why you think a moral yardstick should only be applied to the gay community and not the straight community?

If you are interested in policing peoples morality as a criteria for the civil rights of that person, perhaps I could recommend a few countries in the middle east that you would be more comfortable in living.

Two wrongs never will make it right. This is the best you have to justify your position? Those people do wrong so we can do wrong too? This is really the best to have?

From a biological position homosexuality makes not sense. A homosexual relationship at its very best is only mutual masturbation; it is completely, totally sterile. It is only a poor imitation of heterosexuality.

The only reason I think it is fair to discuss the homosexual lifestyle is that it becomes crystal clear to everyone that we are talking about a truly perverted lifestyle. There is nothing vituous, lovely, or praiseworthy. Why do you want to hide it? True, it is a disgusting discussion, but adults can handle it.

I want it clear that from a scientific position and a religious position there is no foundation to build or excuse the gay lifestyle. You think that because a majority (you say; that certainly has not been supported by the polls) says it is right, that it is therefore acceptable? Carnal man accepts all kinds of perversion and a majority alone will never make it right.

[california boy]

Star Studded Cast for Prop 8, the play.

Here is the link Washington Post

Morgan Freeman, Marisa Tomei among the stars to be in a play about Proposition 8 on Broadway

By Associated Press, Published: August 17

NEW YORK — Anthony Edwards, Morgan Freeman, Cheyenne Jackson, Christine Lahti, Rob Reiner, Yeardley Smith and Marisa Tomei will appear in a one-night-only reading on Broadway of a play about Proposition 8.

On Wednesday, producers announced some of the cast members who will perform in Dustin Lance Black’s play “8’’ as part of a fundraiser at the Eugene O’Neill Theatre on Sept. 19.

Proposition 8 is the measure approved by California voters in 2008 that bans gay marriage in the state. A federal judge struck down the law last year. That ruling is being appealed.

The play, which is based on the trial transcript and interviews, will be directed by Tony Award-winning actor and director Joe Mantello.

Black won the Oscar for “Milk,” his biopic of gay-rights pioneer Harvey Milk.

[subgenius]

Because the recordings of the trial were not made public, so the information must be shared through alternate means; but most importantly, because our families do not yet have equal protection under the law. Once we do, we can "move on."...

As was decided by the Washington state supreme court, and others - LGBT has never been found to be an "immutable" condition and in spite of increasing political influence does not suffer from absence of protections afforded by the law.

Equal protection for marriage only applies to those who qualify to be married - ie. age. We do not allow a father to marry his daughter nor do we allow a woman to marry a parrot. To attempt to equate the LGBT political tantrum to the centuries of struggle endured by "real" minorities is childish, insulting, and embarrassing.