Trinity

[Anakin7]

Once again, the Trinity doctrine says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are united in being. That is the part that we reject and the part that doesn't make any sense.

CFR that God (Jesus Christ, to be exact, since it was He who covenanted with Israel) being the Great I AM means that He is "the only self existent being in existence."

Remember aftersteve if you understand that "Being" in non LDS Christian Doctrine/Thought means "Nature" then we have no problem/quarrel with that for each member of the LDS Godhead/Trinity have the same True God Nature = each holds the title of "God" in scripture.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited July 31, 2011 by Anakin7

[LeSellers]

First [recognizing Satan's one-time fraternal relationship with Jesus] equates an infinite God with the created, as though they are equal, which they never were or are now. That's the primary problem.

You are assuming, against all evidence, that the Son of God is equal to God the Father. He is not: He is the Son of God, and was "created" in the premortal Spirit world.

Why in the world is there a Son of God if, in fact, He is exactly the same as the "Father" (Who isn't His Father anyway)? "Son" and "Father" actually mean something.

From this error, comes the idea that Jesus was created (which altersteve just got done explaining wasn't true, so which is it?).

It depends on what we mean when we say "created". In one sense Jesus, nor anyone else among all mankind, was created. We, as prespiritual "intelligences", have always existed, and we were not created at all.

In the sense of moving from the "intelligence" world to the "spiritual" world, we, and He, too, were created, i.e., "formed", "shaped", "fashioned", "organized". So, it is both, not "which one".

In Christian Theology all of life comes through God, as it says, "all things were created by him and for him." Which means Satan was created by Jesus, hence they couldn't have been spirit brothers.

The quotation does not mean what you claim.

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Notice it says all things in heaven and on earth. "Heaven" does not mean the place where God lives, it means the sky. (BTW, "visible and invisible" means "seen and unseen", not "able-to-be-seen" and "unable-to-be-seen".)

Further, if Christ created all things, He would have created Himself, and God, too. That's impossible.

Lehi

[altersteve]

Right. One Being = One God

For the LDS three Beings = One God

Did I get that right?

Once again, in LDS theology, the "oneness" shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not a oneness of essence or substance, but of heart, mind, purpose, love, and glory. They act as one, they think as one, they speak as one, they love us as one, and they are perfectly agreed in all things, and that is how each of them can be referred to as God. That is exactly what the Bible teaches and is the one thing that you need to understand. Saying that these three separate and distinct beings are collectively one God is no different than saying that fifty separate and distinct states are collectively one nation, or how one man and one woman (two separate and distinct persons) are in the unity of marriage collectively "one flesh."

I don't mean any offense, but how many more times is this going to have to be explained to you?

However, united in purpose, doesn't make one God. Just as we are united to God, doesn't make us one God.

So are you saying that you are "united in purpose" with God? You know what God's purposes are, what His will for you and for all of mankind is? You have the same desires for the world that He has? You are perfectly agreed with God in all things and feel the same love for others that He feels for His children? You think the same way He does? If so, that's interesting, because the Bible says you don't.

Edited August 1, 2011 by altersteve

[Hughes]

Thank you. That is more than can be said about the Trinitarian theology!

There is another aspect of the Mormon doctrine of Godhead that you have overlooked. Although there are many gods, they all worship the One God, who is the Father. In other words, there is a hierarchy of gods, with the Father standing at the apex. He is the God to whom all other gods pay homage and give reverence, including Jesus. Jesus worshipped God. He prayed to that God. He prayed to that God even after His resurrection, as evidenced by His visit to the Nephites. So in that sense of the term there is literally only one God, and all other "gods" become such by being transformed into His image and likeness to such an extent that they become "one" with Him in mind, purpose, and will, as taught in the Gospel of John.

I asked near the beginning of this thread if you (LDS) worship Jesus? The answer was yes. Which indicates that you (LDS) worship both the Father, and Jesus separately, two different Gods.

You are assuming, against all evidence, that the Son of God is equal to God the Father. He is not: He is the Son of God, and was "created" in the premortal Spirit world.

Why in the world is there a Son of God if, in fact, He is exactly the same as the "Father" (Who isn't His Father anyway)? "Son" and "Father" actually mean something.

It depends on what we mean when we say "created". In one sense Jesus, nor anyone else among all mankind, was created. We, as prespiritual "intelligences", have always existed, and we were not created at all.

In the sense of moving from the "intelligence" world to the "spiritual" world, we, and He, too, were created, i.e., "formed", "shaped", "fashioned", "organized". So, it is both, not "which one".

The quotation does not mean what you claim.

Notice it says all things in heaven and on earth. "Heaven" does not mean the place where God lives, it means the sky. (BTW, "visible and invisible" means "seen and unseen", not "able-to-be-seen" and "unable-to-be-seen".)

Further, if Christ created all things, He would have created Himself, and God, too. That's impossible.

Lehi

You are correct, that I believe that Jesus is equal to the Father. Because that is how he is seen in the Bible.

John 5:18 "making himself equal with God [the Father]."

John 14:8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

Matt. 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

CFR as to Jesus being created in the premortal Spirit World, in the Biblical text.

The words Son and Father denote relationship, not inequality.

So, the LDS Doesn't believe that Jesus created all things?

[Hughes]

Once again, in LDS theology, the "oneness" shared between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not a oneness of essence or substance, but of heart, mind, purpose, love, and glory. They act as one, they think as one, they speak as one, they love us as one, and they are perfectly agreed in all things, and that is how each of them can be referred to as God. That is exactly what the Bible teaches and is the one thing that you need to understand. Saying that these three separate and distinct beings are collectively one God is no different than saying that fifty separate and distinct states are collectively one nation, or how one man and one woman (two separate and distinct persons) are in the unity of marriage collectively "one flesh."

I don't mean any offense, but how many more times is this going to have to be explained to you?

So are you saying that you are "united in purpose" with God? You know what God's purposes are, what His will for you and for all of mankind is? You have the same desires for the world that He has? You are perfectly agreed with God in all things and feel the same love for others that He feels for His children? You think the same way He does? If so, that's interesting, because the Bible says you don't.

So, I said, "Right. One Being = One God

For the LDS three Beings = One God

Did I get that right?"

And it appears that yes I got it right.

You said, "three separate and distinct beings are collectively one God"

My point was about Jesus praying that we will be one as they are one, which is used by the LDS. I said, "just as we are united to God" when we get to heaven, we won't all be "collectively one God" as you claim those three are, will we?

Edited August 1, 2011 by Hughes

[altersteve]

I asked near the beginning of this thread if you (LDS) worship Jesus? The answer was yes. Which indicates that you (LDS) worship both the Father, and Jesus separately, two different Gods.

No. Latter-day Saints worship the Father and the Son in unity. To worship one is to worship the other.

You are correct, that I believe that Jesus is equal to the Father. Because that is how he is seen in the Bible.

Not according to Christ's own words:

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

Also:

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29).

If the Father "is greater than all," then He is greater than Jesus too.

So, the LDS Doesn't believe that Jesus created all things?

Nobody ever said that. Of course we do. Jesus Christ, under the direction of the Father, created all things that were created. Latter-day Saints fully and completely embrace this.

Once again, it helps to study LDS theology before you criticize it.

So, I said, "Right. One Being = One God

For the LDS three Beings = One God

Did I get that right?"

And it appears that yes I got it right.

No, you didn't. You seem to think that we believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are literally one God. We don't. I guess I have to explain that to you again. Honestly, it's getting tiring.

You said, "three separate and distinct beings are collectively one God"

Way to take my words way out of context, buddy.

My point was about Jesus praying that we will be one as they are one, which is used by the LDS. I said, "just as we are united to God" when we get to heaven, we won't all be "collectively one God" as you claim those three are, will we?

All we know regarding this is that we will never be as great as our Father, our Savior, and the Holy Ghost. That much is for certain. We may be "gods," whatever that means, but never God. I'm sure someone else could answer this question better than I can.

Edited August 1, 2011 by altersteve

[Hughes]

No. Latter-day Saints worship the Father and the Son in unity. To worship one is to worship the other.

Not according to Christ's own words:

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

Also:

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29).

If the Father "is greater than all," then He is greater than Jesus too.

Nobody ever said that. Of course we do. Jesus Christ, under the direction of the Father, created all things that were created. Latter-day Saints fully and completely embrace this.

Once again, it helps to study LDS theology before you criticize it.

No, you didn't. You seem to think that we believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are literally one God. We don't. I guess I have to explain that to you again. Honestly, it's getting tiring.

Way to take my words way out of context, buddy.

All we know regarding this is that we will never be as great as our Father, our Savior, and the Holy Ghost. That much is for certain. We may be "gods," whatever that means, but never God. I'm sure someone else could answer this question better than I can.

So the LDS worship two Gods in unity? (again I'm not criticizing, I'm only trying to understand this point)

Regarding your quotes of Jesus stating that his Father is greater, and greatest. You've done a great job ignoring the vast amounts of scripture to pluck two out that show Christ's humility. Which of course we all acknowledge. He humbled himself to become a man, at which point his Father was greater and greatest.

My question to LeSellers wasn't a criticism, but a question based on his response to my quoting the scripture that says that through Christ all things were made.

Please, I didn't take your words out of context. I was looking for a straight forward answer to see if my logic was correct, and your statement matches mine exactly.

The difference appears to be that you believe that somehow unity is better or more accurate than trinity. And my point is that unity, as you are using it, doesn't mitigate "many". The only way you can have unity is if you have more than one, which logically equals poly-theism.

[Storm Rider]

Regarding your quotes of Jesus stating that his Father is greater, and greatest. You've done a great job ignoring the vast amounts of scripture to pluck two out that show Christ's humility. Which of course we all acknowledge. He humbled himself to become a man, at which point his Father was greater and greatest.

The only way you can have unity is if you have more than one, which logically equals poly-theism.

First of all, you know as well as everyone else here that there is a plethora of verses of scripture that clearly delineate the Father and the Son as two distinctly separate gods. There are also scriptures that make it appear that the Father and Son are one. Trying to disprove one another with scripture is seldom efficasious.

Islam levels the identical criticism at Christianity that you use against LDS. Three never was one; three is polytheism. Simply by creating a philosophical work-around by the it substance, essence, etc. does nothing; there are still three. The problem for Trinitarians is that God had a Son. How could be possibly be divine and not destroy monotheism? Thankfully they admitted Jesus was divine, but then called two, One. Still not monotheism regardless of how many times you say Three (two) are One. Pot calling kettle black.

[zerinus]

I asked near the beginning of this thread if you (LDS) worship Jesus? The answer was yes. Which indicates that you (LDS) worship both the Father, and Jesus separately, two different Gods.

Jesus is a bit of an exception. He is our Savior, Redeemer, and creator. "All things were made by Him . . ." (John 1:3). He stands next to the Father in all things. But even Jesus never commanded us to worship or pray to Him, but only the Father. Paul makes a clear distinction between the two: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6). He calls the Father God, and Jesus Lord; and each of them are distinct from the other.

You are correct, that I believe that Jesus is equal to the Father. Because that is how he is seen in the Bible.

John 5:18 "making himself equal with God [the Father]."

The Jews said that; Jesus didn't. His accusers said it. Jesus said that His Father was greater than Him.

John 14:8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

That again doesn't say what you are claiming it says. He is one with the Father in the sense that He has acquired all the attributes of the Father. That does not mean that they are equal in every respect.

Matt. 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

The same here. It doesn't make them equal in every respect.

CFR as to Jesus being created in the premortal Spirit World, in the Biblical text.

Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14.

The words Son and Father denote relationship, not inequality.

It denoted inequality in rank.

So, the LDS Doesn't believe that Jesus created all things?

Yes we do, under the direction of the Father.

[Flyonthewall]

There is no possible way for three individuals to be God, and yet there be only on God. And you know this how?

Understanding the english language.

Please, shed light on this to make sense of it...without "de-meaning" any words.

[Hughes]

First of all, you know as well as everyone else here that there is a plethora of verses of scripture that clearly delineate the Father and the Son as two distinctly separate gods. There are also scriptures that make it appear that the Father and Son are one. Trying to disprove one another with scripture is seldom efficasious.

Islam levels the identical criticism at Christianity that you use against LDS. Three never was one; three is polytheism. Simply by creating a philosophical work-around by the it substance, essence, etc. does nothing; there are still three. The problem for Trinitarians is that God had a Son. How could be possibly be divine and not destroy monotheism? Thankfully they admitted Jesus was divine, but then called two, One. Still not monotheism regardless of how many times you say Three (two) are One. Pot calling kettle black.

So, what you seem to be saying is that you're not denying that you worship separate gods?

Your criticisms of the Trinitarian view are noted, and Islam's as well. However, when we say we worship one God, in three persons. We are only trying to be accurate to the text. The fact that Islam doesn't understand or care to understand this, nor do they have the burden to understand it, hasn't ever bother me, nor surprised me.

Fact remains that the LDS seem to claim to worship at least two "distinctly separate gods." And no scripture doesn't clearly say there are two separate gods.

[Hughes]

Jesus is a bit of an exception. He is our Savior, Redeemer, and creator. "All things were made by Him . . ." (John 1:3). He stands next to the Father in all things. But even Jesus never commanded us to worship or pray to Him, but only the Father. Paul makes a clear distinction between the two: "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" (1 Corinthians 8:6). He calls the Father God, and Jesus Lord; and each of them are distinct from the other.

The Jews said that; Jesus didn't. His accusers said it. Jesus said that His Father was greater than Him.

That again doesn't say what you are claiming it says. He is one with the Father in the sense that He has acquired all the attributes of the Father. That does not mean that they are equal in every respect.

The same here. It doesn't make them equal in every respect.

Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14.

It denoted inequality in rank.

Yes we do, under the direction of the Father.

Christ was worshiped and prayed to by the first believers and Apostles.

Jesus never corrected those accusers, when he claimed equality with God.

Matt. 28 indicates that all three are equal, as all three are used in the baptismal formula.

Jesus being created in the premortal Spirit World, in the Biblical text?

Col. 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Nope. Not created in this passage.

Rev. 3: 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation."

Nope not this one either.

Neither passage above mentioned "premortal Spirit World" Sorry.

Nor do they say that Jesus was created. The word first born is not the same as created. Adam was created a living soul, Jesus wasn't ever created because he always was, as he said, before Abraham was, I AM.

Just as a husband and wife have different roles, but are equal, the same way that the Father and Jesus are equal, but have different roles. So your pointing out their different roles, doesn't indicate inequality.

Hughes, on 30 July 2011 - 10:55 PM, said:

There is no possible way for three individuals to be God, and yet there be only on God. And you know this how?

Understanding the english language.

Please, shed light on this to make sense of it...without "de-meaning" any words.

You claimed to know this. I was curious how you know this?

[Anakin7]

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/trinity.html

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Edited August 1, 2011 by Anakin7

[zerinus]

Christ was worshiped and prayed to by the first believers and Apostles.

First, I don’t recall in the Bible that they did. Second, we also worship Jesus; but in our formal prayers we follow the example Jesus set, by addressing our prayers to the Father in His name.

Jesus never corrected those accusers, when he claimed equality with God.

Actually He did. He corrected them by saying that He was the Son of God, which is not the same as making Himself equal with God.

Matt. 28 indicates that all three are equal, as all three are used in the baptismal formula.

That doesn’t make them equal either. It simply is not a logical deduction to make, that just because all three are mentioned in the baptismal formula, therefore all three must be equal. The conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise. If I signed a contract in behalf of my dad, my next door neighbor, and my wife’s great uncle, does that mean that all three of them are equal?

Jesus being created in the premortal Spirit World, in the Biblical text?

Col. 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Nope. Not created in this passage.

Rev. 3: 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation."

Nope not this one either.

Neither passage above mentioned "premortal Spirit World" Sorry.

Nor do they say that Jesus was created. The word first born is not the same as created. Adam was created a living soul, Jesus wasn't ever created because he always was, as he said, before Abraham was, I AM.

First of all the verses you quoted don’t agree with translation of the Bible I am using. The KJV renders them as follows:

Colossians 1:15

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the

firstborn of every creature

"

Revelation 3:14

"These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the

beginning of the creation of God

"

Secondly, these verses suggest that Jesus in some sense or other was created, or had a beginning. He was the “firstborn of every creature,” and the “beginning of the creation of God”. The fact that the “pre-existent world” or the “spirit world” is not mentioned is irrelevant. If He had a beginning, then that beginning was before the creation of this earth; you can call that "beginning period" whatever you like.

Just as a husband and wife have different roles, but are equal, the same way that the Father and Jesus are equal, but have different roles. So your pointing out their different roles, doesn't indicate inequality.

When Jesus prays to His Father, and calls Him His God, and declares that He is greater than Him, I take that to mean what it says.

You claimed to know this. I was curious how you know this?

To answer for him, because it just doesn’t make sense.

[altersteve]

Hughes, you keep pulling the polytheism card on us. We do not worship the Father and the Son separately, as you seem to be content with claiming. We reject the idea that they are united in essence or substance, but believe that they are perfectly united in every other way, making them "one God," members of one Godhead, in that sense. And it is God—the Father and the Son in unity, with the accompanying influence of the Holy Ghost—whom we worship. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are only separate "gods" in the sense that they are divine beings, like I said. That puts polytheism out of the picture. Your claim that Joseph Smith was too dumb to comprehend the doctrine of the Trinity is without merit, because both LDS and non-LDS scholars agree that he was very intelligent. His "lack of comprehension" had nothing to do with it. Scholars, both LDS and non-LDS, are also in agreement that the doctrine of the Trinity was not known or taught prior to the centuries after Christ, giving strength to the LDS belief in an apostasy within the Christian faith, and in the necessity of a restoration.

Therefore, it comes down to one thing: was Joseph Smith a prophet? And the best (and maybe only) way to know the answer to that question is to study the Book of Mormon, ponder the message it contains, put its teachings into your life, and sincerely ask God "with real intent" and "while having faith in Christ" if the book is true, and He will give you the knowledge of whether it is or it is not. In other words, if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, then the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God's authorizing institution on this earth, and all its doctrines are true, which means that the doctrine of the Trinity (three consubstantial persons united in substance as one being without substance) is false.

It seems that every claim made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints comes down to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. Funny how that works. So this conversation will really go nowhere unless we keep that in mind, and unless you keep our other beliefs and claims in mind as you study our religion.

[Storm Rider]

Christ was worshiped and prayed to by the first believers and Apostles.

Jesus never corrected those accusers, when he claimed equality with God.

Matt. 28 indicates that all three are equal, as all three are used in the baptismal formula.

Jesus being created in the premortal Spirit World, in the Biblical text?

Col. 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Nope. Not created in this passage.

Rev. 3: 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation."

Nope not this one either.

Neither passage above mentioned "premortal Spirit World" Sorry.

Nor do they say that Jesus was created. The word first born is not the same as created. Adam was created a living soul, Jesus wasn't ever created because he always was, as he said, before Abraham was, I AM.

Just as a husband and wife have different roles, but are equal, the same way that the Father and Jesus are equal, but have different roles. So your pointing out their different roles, doesn't indicate inequality.

You claimed to know this. I was curious how you know this?

It always makes me laugh when someone is purposely obtuse. Please explain in English how firstborn does not mean the first born? Before Jeremiah was fromed in the belly, God knew him, before he was born he was ordained sanctified and ordained a prophet. Tell me how that happened if Jeremiah did not already exist. Please no philosopical backflips, just admit the obvious. It is easy; try it.

How do you get all are equal because all names are used in the baptismal prayer? Where does it say that? Nope, not there either. Oh, you think it implies that?!? No, it means Jesus tells them to use all three names for each member of the Godhead. Count the names - there are three. Not one, but three.

You will never find a LDS who is confused about to whom s/he is praying; it is always God the Father. You will not find them praying to Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost. Why do you think that is? Why do Protestants mix them up; worship all three seperately. They even say prayers directly to Jesus in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words. Why is that?

What is so frustrating is there is not one of these "critics" (using the term loosely here) that is not guilty of exactly what they accuse LDS of. They always want to use two standards. Intellectually dishonest and completely deceitful. Of course, it could just be a case of spiritual blindness, which I think is far more likely.

[altersteve]

Before Jeremiah was fromed in the belly, God knew him, before he was born he was ordained sanctified and ordained a prophet. Tell me how that happened if Jeremiah did not already exist. Please no philosopical backflips, just admit the obvious. It is easy; try it.

A lot of non-Mormon Christians I have spoken to claim that God knew Jeremiah in His own mind. I reject that interpretation, of course, but if you don't believe in a pre-existence, then that seems to be the most logical answer.

You will never find a LDS who is confused about to whom s/he is praying; it is always God the Father. You will not find them praying to Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost. Why do you think that is? Why do Protestants mix them up; worship all three seperately. They even say prayers directly to Jesus in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words. Why is that?

On the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry website, president and founder Matt Slick said that since Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are both God, it is appropriate to pray to both or either of them. I reject that, too, because it stands, like you said, in direct opposition to Jesus' instructions. I see that as a Protestant's way of harmonizing tradition with what the Bible really says, which is why tradition cannot be reliable. That, I think, is the fundamental conflict between Protestant and LDS belief. Latter-day Saints reject most of what is "traditionally" taught, while Protestants reject almost any new interpretation, or any claims of a restoration, and they, as you said, use double standards and logical fallacies to make this work for them. This is why Mormonism is, at least in my own view, much more intellectually satisfying than any other set of doctrines.

What is so frustrating is there is not one of these "critics" (using the term loosely here) that is not guilty of exactly what they accuse LDS of.

I'm glad someone agrees with me here. I am always amazed at how terrible most "critics" are at criticizing. I always want to say, "If you want to criticize me, then at least do it properly." Sometimes it's absolutely pathetic.

Edited August 1, 2011 by altersteve

[Flyonthewall]

...

You claimed to know this. I was curious how you know this?

And as I stated, my understanding of the English language allows me to understand the meaning of the words. I understand each word individually, and when grouped together.

The only way to make the words mean the things put forth are to change the meanings of the words.

So, if you can shed light on this, without "de-meaning" the words, then please do so.

[Storm Rider]

So, what you seem to be saying is that you're not denying that you worship separate gods?

Your criticisms of the Trinitarian view are noted, and Islam's as well. However, when we say we worship one God, in three persons. We are only trying to be accurate to the text. The fact that Islam doesn't understand or care to understand this, nor do they have the burden to understand it, hasn't ever bother me, nor surprised me.

Fact remains that the LDS seem to claim to worship at least two "distinctly separate gods." And no scripture doesn't clearly say there are two separate gods.

I worship the same God that Jesus worshipped and prayed to, God the Father. I always approach him as commanded through his Son, Jesus Christ. They communicate to me through the Holy Spirit. Worshipping the Son; Jesus is my intermediary with the Father; I am his disciple and seek to follow him; I love him and therefore I keep his commandments; when I fall, which is often, I strive to repent. The Spirit guides me, strengthens me, sustains me, and helps me to recognize the better path.

When Stephen looked up into the Heavens and saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father, are you saying that is not a clear statement of two seperate gods? Are you saying that one of them was not a God? I look forward to your answer.

[Rob Bowman]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

First of all, you know as well as everyone else here that there is a plethora of verses of scripture that clearly delineate the Father and the Son as two distinctly separate gods. There are also scriptures that make it appear that the Father and Son are one. Trying to disprove one another with scripture is seldom efficasious.

Please cite for us even one verse in the Bible (I'll also allow you to use the Book of Mormon for the sake of argument) that clearly says that the Father and the Son are two separate gods. Verses that say or indicate that they are personally distinct from one another (i.e., that show that the Father is someone other than the Son and vice versa) do not count. Trinitarians agree that the Father and the Son are different persons. Please show us from the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) that they are different gods.

You wrote:

When Stephen looked up into the Heavens and saw Jesus on the right hand of the Father, are you saying that is not a clear statement of two seperate gods?

That's right, it is not a clear statement of two separate gods. Nothing in the text says this or clearly requires it (Acts 7:55-56). The text does reveal that the Father and Son are personally distinct from one another, but not that they are separate gods.

[Rob Bowman]

Storm Rider and altersteve,

I'd like to ask you about your comments regarding praying to Jesus. Storm Rider wrote:

You will never find a LDS who is confused about to whom s/he is praying; it is always God the Father. You will not find them praying to Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost. Why do you think that is? Why do Protestants mix them up; worship all three seperately. They even say prayers directly to Jesus in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words. Why is that?

Altersteve commented:

On the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry website, president and founder Matt Slick said that since Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father are both God, it is appropriate to pray to both or either of them. I reject that, too, because it stands, like you said, in direct opposition to Jesus' instructions.

CFR that Jesus ever instructed his disciples not to pray to him. Citing statements in which Jesus spoke of praying to the Father (e.g., in the Lord's Prayer) don't count. In no text does Jesus say that prayer must be addressed only to the Father and not to him.

Contrary to what the two of you claim, the NT frequently speaks of prayer addressed to Jesus Christ (John 14:14; Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60; 9:14; 22:16; Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8-9; 1 John 5:14-15; Rev. 22:20-21). If Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the OT, as your theology admits, then it makes absolutely no sense to claim that it is wrong to pray to Jesus, since Jehovah is God from eternity to eternity (Psalm 90:2) and so is God right now. To claim to believe that Jesus is Jehovah, that he is "God," but to refuse prayer to him, is incoherent.

[shalamabobbi]

Storm Rider,

You wrote:

Please cite for us even one verse in the Bible (I'll also allow you to use the Book of Mormon for the sake of argument) that clearly says that the Father and the Son are two separate gods. Verses that say or indicate that they are personally distinct from one another (i.e., that show that the Father is someone other than the Son and vice versa) do not count. Trinitarians agree that the Father and the Son are different persons. Please show us from the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) that they are different gods.

You wrote:

That's right, it is not a clear statement of two separate gods. Nothing in the text says this or clearly requires it (Acts 7:55-56). The text does reveal that the Father and Son are personally distinct from one another, but not that they are separate gods.

So are you saying that one God has the same significance in relation to the Father and Son as one presidency has to Barack Obama and Joe Biden?

[Rob Bowman]

Shalamabobbi,

You asked:

So are you saying that one God has the same significance in relation to the Father and Son as one presidency has to Barack Obama and Joe Biden?

No, that wouldn't be an adequate analogy. Obama is the president and Biden is in no sense the president. Only one of them can be president of the USA at a time. The Bible reveals that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, simultaneously (and eternally).

[altersteve]

Please cite for us even one verse in the Bible (I'll also allow you to use the Book of Mormon for the sake of argument) that clearly says that the Father and the Son are two separate gods. Verses that say or indicate that they are personally distinct from one another (i.e., that show that the Father is someone other than the Son and vice versa) do not count. Trinitarians agree that the Father and the Son are different persons. Please show us from the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) that they are different gods.

We don't have to cite anything that they are separate "gods." A "god," by definition, is any divine being. God the Father and Jesus Christ are, however you look at it, divine beings, or persons, and are therefore "gods" by the very definition of the word.

The Bible reveals that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God, simultaneously (and eternally).

You say this as if we don't believe it. Why?

Edited August 2, 2011 by altersteve

[altersteve]

CFR that Jesus ever instructed his disciples not to pray to him. Citing statements in which Jesus spoke of praying to the Father (e.g., in the Lord's Prayer) don't count. In no text does Jesus say that prayer must be addressed only to the Father and not to him.

Contrary to what the two of you claim, the NT frequently speaks of prayer addressed to Jesus Christ (John 14:14; Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60; 9:14; 22:16; Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 16:22; 2 Cor. 12:8-9; 1 John 5:14-15; Rev. 22:20-21). If Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the OT, as your theology admits, then it makes absolutely no sense to claim that it is wrong to pray to Jesus, since Jehovah is God from eternity to eternity (Psalm 90:2) and so is God right now. To claim to believe that Jesus is Jehovah, that he is "God," but to refuse prayer to him, is incoherent.

First of all, it is only your own opinion that it is "incoherent" to not pray to Christ. Second, your implication that it is okay to pray to Jesus since Jesus did not instruct His disciples not to pray to Him is a complete argument from silence. Luckily, Latter-day Saints do not have this problem, because latter-day revelation affirms that we are to pray to the same person that Jesus prayed to: His Father. You also must realize that in the New Testament verses you cited, none of the individuals praying to Jesus were present when He commanded His disciples to pray to the Father.

But that is beside the point. For whatever reason, we are to no longer pray to Jehovah, and until we are commanded otherwise, we will continue praying to our Heavenly Father through and in the name of His Son.