Why Engraven Images Of A Caucasian Jesus?

[TAO]

Whiteness does NOT equate to purity & perfection.

Not caucasian whiteness. Whiteness whiteness.... think of the temple... THAT type of whiteness.

Are outerspace... the depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they aren't white or lack light?

Spiritual whiteness, not that =P.

We've got to get away from associating white skin with rightousness. It simply is wrong & causes others pain. Don't you realize that, Tao?

Not skin XD. Spiritual.

It may not cause you pain because you're white, but if we want to show love to others... to be like God, who IS love... then we must learn to empathize with others different from us & to show compassion.

Erp. Nah, I was talking about spiritual whiteness... it will be as if he is brilliant beyond compare =D. Tis awesome =).

Think white, like pure light. That type of whiteness.

EDIT: Here is an excellent video to show you that I am really not referring to God's skin color, okay? =)

Now, if you get that movie, and watch the end... you will see what you can call 'spiritual whiteness'... it's... purity. The movie is mainly humor... but at the end... it takes on a very positive and building tone... and that's why I like it =D.

Best Wishes,

TAO

Edited July 17, 2011 by TAO

[Libs]

Yes, what skin anyone has DOESN'T MATTER... except when people make it matter, as I've seen with prejudice shown on this thread & from other church members.

Libs, You seem to have shown an open- mind to other concepts. Try to imagine how you'd feel as a person with dark skin... coming into a ward of predominately caucasians, who give you dirty looks or ignore you... basically treat you as less than caucasian members. One member refused to receive the sacrament from an Aaronic Priesthood holder who happened to have dark skin.

How would you feel being part of a church that teaches righteousness is based on skin tone?? (based on scriptures previously mentioned, as well as additional related scriptures)

Maybe if you've never experienced prejudice yourself, or had someone you loved experience it, you might not be able to empathize as well.

Yet, I believe we can all learn to see things from different perspectives, & if we want to become more Godlike - more loving - we must.

HeatherAnn, let me make very clear that I believe racial prejudice is very wrong...just as wrong as it can be. I, actually, have experienced that kind of prejudice, even though I am white and live in a predominately white culture. I took a class in black history, in college, back in the early 70's (black instructor and almost all black students). This instructor, most unfortunately, made it very clear that he didn't appreciate having white students, in his class. It was quite shocking for me, and I did end up leaving the class and never told anyone at the university about it (although, in retrospect, I should have). Racial prejudice is humiliating and degrading and certainly has no place in the LDS Church or anywhere else.

I am really, really sorry that you have had bad experiences within the church, but I know the leaders of this church do not approve of that kind of behavior. They denounce it. I also know that it does happen, sometimes. Hopefully, those incidents will become less and less, as our culture becomes more tolerant (all of us). I think that has already happened to a large degree. I was born in the 40's, so I've seen some really bad racial discrimination, in my day. It has gotten so much better and I hope that we will "all" continue to learn and grow in love and grace, as our Savior would want us to.

[Sevenbak]

I previously wrote, "Why should a parent know more than a child?"

Obviously, healthy parents know more than their newborn & children (minors) about most things. There could be exceptions like with geniuses, but that's rare & still, parents tend to have more wisdom through experience. Again, my point being... parents know more because they've experienced more over time. We're learning & progressing with time. In every field of study, as a human race, we're learning more... including archeology. Now we have a better idea of what a man during Jesus' time & are might have looked like.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus

Joseph, did NOT teach us to just accept anything without questioning. Nor did Jesus.

They taught to question, & to seek learning through study and by faith.

To blindly follow is what the adversary taught, not Joseph, nor Jesus.

...Brother Joseph did not SEE with his eyes...

Woah! Joseph did not SEE with his eyes? I've never heard that doctrine. Yes he was quickened in spirit in order to spare him death by seeing God, but please provide references that the First Vision was a mere spiritual experience that could be interpreted differently...

And again, I would ask, what possible difference does it make if men Jesus's time looked a certain way? Christ was the son of God, and son of Man.

Joseph's visions were real, and his testimony of the fact is real. He saw what he saw, and recorded what he recorded.

I don't blindly follow, but I don't "not follow" unless it makes sense to my mortal understanding. That's a dangerous approach, imo.

[Sevenbak]

Whiteness does NOT equate to purity & perfection.

Are outerspace... the depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they aren't white or lack light?

We've got to get away from associating white skin with rightousness. It simply is wrong & causes others pain. Don't you realize that, Tao?

It may not cause you pain because you're white, but if we want to show love to others... to be like God, who IS love... then we must learn to empathize with others different from us & to show compassion.

I suspect that you've been hurt by someone with less than pure motives in the church. I'm sorry for that, but I believe you're barking up the wrong tree.

Think Samuel the Lamanite. He was more righteous than all the "fair" Nephites, his skin color made no difference whatsoever.

Forgive the pun, but all is not so black and white.

[Sevenbak]

He propheside some things wrong... like saying Jesus would return within 56 years (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189).

I would also add that I don't agree with your perception that this was a prophecy, wrong or right. No offense, but it appears to me that this is straight out of the anti's playbook.

Here's some useful info on the topic.

http://www.fairwiki.org/Joseph_Smith/Alleged_false_prophecies/Second_Coming_to_be_in_1890

[TAO]

One member refused to receive the sacrament from an Aaronic Priesthood holder who happened to have dark skin.

Whoever did such was very very wrong... and you DEFINATELY should have reported such to the bishop. That is a big no-no >=(.

How would you feel being part of a church that teaches righteousness is based on skin tone?? (based on scriptures previously mentioned, as well as additional related scriptures)

1. The BoM is not necessarily referring to skin tone.

2. Even if it is, ya got it reversed, it says that skin tone is based on righteousness

3. Even if that is such, it doesn't apply today, in reference to God's priesthood, so why would that matter?

My friend... just chill... the church doesn't care about skin tone, nor do I. In fact... where I live... skin tone is a matter of joking around between friends who are in their teens. I realize it's not near that perfect everywhere, but really, what you got was a rare occurrence, I do hope.

Edited July 17, 2011 by TAO

[Nathair/|\]

I've got to say this about my brother, Tao (even if it's against rules). He's one of the kindest and most sensitive souls I've encountered on the net, without guile and without hate towards anybody.

[HeatherAnn]

Whiteness does NOT equate to purity & perfection.

Are outerspace... the

depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they

aren't white or lack light?

Yes, they are imperfect, but not because of their color.

How are outerspace... the depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they aren't white or lack light imperfect???

Edited July 17, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Nathair/|\]

How are outerspace... the depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they aren't white or lack light imperfect???

Everything you can travel to in space and time is imperfect.

[bluebell]

How are outerspace... the depths of the sea, tree roots underground, or navy suits imperfect because they aren't white or lack light imperfect???

They are imperfect because they part of a fallen world.

White doves, cotton, and snow are imperfect as well for the same reason.

The color of something has no impact on whether or not it is perfect. White is sometimes used as a sympbol of perfection because the color denotes purity.

I never said they were imperfect 'because they aren't white or lack light imperfect'. I don't even know what that means.

Edited July 17, 2011 by bluebell

[HeatherAnn]

TAO,

I understand you meant whiteness as in purity & perfection, yet that's partly my point... whiteness, whether skin or walls, or carpet etc... does not mean purity & perfection IMO.

The temples I've been in are beautiful - but they're not 100% white! Only sanitary hospitals may be so white.

Pure white is boring & uninspiring. LDS Humanitarian services asks for colorful decorations for orphan babies, so they don't have to stare at a white wall.

As beautiful as the temples are, they are nothing compared to our Creator's creations!! The mountains, beaches, deserts, valleys, canyons, waterfalls... are incredibly beautiful & colorful!

Color is associated with life! Or life is associated with color! Either way, take your pick!

1. The BoM is not necessarily referring to skin tone.

Yes, it is. I went through this in my post with Sevenbak

2. Even if it is, ya got it reversed, it says that skin tone is based on righteousness

Who cares which word comes first? Skin tone and righteousenss are incorrectly associated.

3. Even if that is such, it doesn't apply today, in reference to God's priesthood, so why would that matter?

My friend... just chill... the church doesn't care about skin tone, nor do I. In fact... where I live... skin tone is a matter of joking around between friends who are in their teens. I realize it's not near that perfect everywhere, but really, what you got was a rare occurrence, I do hope.

Obviously, you haven't experienced nor witnessed prejudice among church members as I have.

To say something doesn't matter because it doesn't affect you is lacking in empathy for others who ARE negatively affected.

Edited July 17, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn, let me make very clear that I believe racial prejudice is very wrong...just as wrong as it can be. I, actually, have experienced that kind of prejudice, even though I am white and live in a predominately white culture. I took a class in black history, in college, back in the early 70's (black instructor and almost all black students). This instructor, most unfortunately, made it very clear that he didn't appreciate having white students, in his class. It was quite shocking for me, and I did end up leaving the class and never told anyone at the university about it (although, in retrospect, I should have). Racial prejudice is humiliating and degrading and certainly has no place in the LDS Church or anywhere else.

I am really, really sorry that you have had bad experiences within the church, but I know the leaders of this church do not approve of that kind of behavior. They denounce it. I also know that it does happen, sometimes. Hopefully, those incidents will become less and less, as our culture becomes more tolerant (all of us). I think that has already happened to a large degree. I was born in the 40's, so I've seen some really bad racial discrimination, in my day. It has gotten so much better and I hope that we will "all" continue to learn and grow in love and grace, as our Savior would want us to.

Thanks, Libs.

I've experienced various types of prejudice also. Not fun, yet it's helped me develop empathy & compassion for those I previously was oblivioius to, as some seem to be in the church.

Yeah, we've made progress, but we're not done! We've got a lot more to go... & I think the racial prejudice wording in the scriptures need to be changed.

I also think that they should not order any more pictures nor paintings of a white Jesus.

Either nothing... or who he was... not some made up version because they can't handle the truth of Jesus' true appearance.

[HeatherAnn]

I don't blindly follow, but I don't "not follow" unless it makes sense to my mortal understanding. That's a dangerous approach, imo.

Joseph is praised for not taking alcohol despite being operated on.

So, why is it Utah is 7th in the nation for pain-killer pill abuse? If you follow Joseph Smith despite understanding, why don't you do as he did? Or maybe you've never taken anything for pain?

God gave us a brain to use & expected us to be wise & USE it.

God also gave us intuition to use in combination with intellect.

To discount archeology findings that don't fit with what you're comfortable with or with tradition... is not using one's brain nor intuition properly, IMO.

[HeatherAnn]

Everything you can travel to in space and time is imperfect.

Please explain exactly how they are imperfect... & who is it that determines such perfection?

If we believe in eternal progression, is not God still progressing? So is God not perfect?

Isn't perfection found IN spiritual progress?

[TAO]

TAO,

I understand you meant whiteness as in purity & perfection, yet that's partly my point... whiteness, whether skin or walls, or carpet etc... does not mean purity & perfection IMO.

The temples I've been in are beautiful - but they're not 100% white! Only sanitary hospitals may be so white.

That is okay =). That is the shade of white I am referring too... the whiteness of the temples... can you not breathe it in, it is so... thick? The spirit in the temple is... perfect... like air to breathe.... is is white. =D.

Pure white is boring & uninspiring.

Of course it is, my friend. Jesus isn't only white. But the word 'white' describes his spiritual... feeling. It is pure. It is the color that most matches it =).

LDS Humanitarian services asks for colorful decorations for orphan babies, so they don't have to stare at a white wall.

Most definately =). And that is good.

As beautiful as the temples are, they are nothing compared to our Creator's creations!! The mountains, beaches, deserts, valleys, canyons, waterfalls... are incredibly beautiful & colorful!

Color is associated with life! Or life is associated with color! Either way, take your pick!

Life is associated with color, my friend =). Nah, the whiteness... it is hard to describe... it is... well, you'll see ;-).

Yes, it is. I went through this in my post with Sevenbak

Only if you interpret it that way =). You see... it can be read in many ways... look at all the verses... and you can read it in a way that refers to skin tone... or you can read it in a way that refers to spiritual alignment. In a way, both may be true. But especially the latter.

Who cares which word comes first? Skin tone and righteousenss are incorrectly associated.

Let me tell you why it is important which come first. One is the cause, the other is the effect. If the link is removed (as it has been in latter days), is the cause the effect anymore? Nah, it is not =).

Obviously, you haven't experienced nor witnessed prejudice among church members as I have.

Correct, I haven't. I have witnessed many thankful for the Official Declaration 2 though. Including many Caucasian members. It is a rare member who thinks that God uses skin these days.

Let me tell you, my friend, I cannot take back the words of another member. But I can tell you that we are more grateful for the Official Doctrine 2 then can be imagined... and I can also tell you... the other member has a few things to learn from God. As do all of us, I guess.

To say something doesn't matter because it doesn't affect you is lacking in empathy for others who ARE negatively affected.

I disagree, my friend... a day will come when colors are no longer associated with race. We will look forward on that day.

I am careful when I use color terms, here on the forums. But on that bit... I was clear. Being clear is really important. I understand your point, I respect it.

But... I think though that you are worrying too much about color. Color is just another thing in the world. It is another complexity... another thing... which can both hurt and help.

The thing you should remember about us caucasian people, is that we aren't really white. We are... tan... or brown-ish. We get dirty looking very easily. VERY easily. And sunburns are awful XD.

Only the Savior has a claim to be white, my friend. It is his own color. He reflects away the other colors... so that way he can love all. That is his promise... to not be a respecter of persons =).

Peaceful Wishes,

TAO

[TAO]

God gave us a brain to use & expected us to be wise & USE it.

God also gave us intuition to use in combination with intellect.

To discount archeology findings that don't fit with what you're comfortable with or with tradition... is not using one's brain nor intuition properly, IMO.

This logic isn't perfect actually. Take horses. Originally thought they came over with the conquistadors. Now we know differently. Archeology changes, my friend,and to trust it, ya gotta know that you could have to change your opinion in the future ;-).

Edited July 17, 2011 by TAO

[Sevenbak]

Joseph is praised for not taking alcohol despite being operated on.

So, why is it Utah is 7th in the nation for pain-killer pill abuse? If you follow Joseph Smith despite understanding, why don't you do as he did? Or maybe you've never taken anything for pain?

God gave us a brain to use & expected us to be wise & USE it.

God also gave us intuition to use in combination with intellect.

To discount archeology findings that don't fit with what you're comfortable with or with tradition... is not using one's brain nor intuition properly, IMO.

All correct, from a certain point of view.

But let's revisit Joseph's own words from the scriptures.

"‘I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!’ (JS—H 1:17).”

It was an actual event, real vision, seen with his eyes, and recorded with his own words.

I really love the way President Hinckley phrased the reality of that sacred event:

"...There, in circumstances which he has described in much detail, he beheld the Father and the Son, the great God of the universe and the risen Lord, both of whom spoke to him.

"This transcendent experience opened the marvelous work of restoration. It lifted the curtain on the long-promised dispensation of the fulness of times.

"For more than a century and a half, enemies, critics, and some would-be scholars have worn out their lives trying to disprove the validity of that vision. Of course they cannot understand it. The things of God are understood by the Spirit of God. There had been nothing of comparable magnitude since the Son of God walked the earth in mortality. Without it as a foundation stone for our faith and organization, we have nothing. With it, we have everything.

"Much has been written, much will be written, in an effort to explain it away. The finite mind cannot comprehend it. But the testimony of the Holy Spirit, experienced by countless numbers of people all through the years since it happened, bears witness that it is true, that it happened as Joseph Smith said it happened, that it was as real as the sunrise over Palmyra, that it is an essential foundation stone, a cornerstone, without which the Church could not be 'fitly framed together.' "

Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Cornerstones of Our Faith," Ensign, Nov. 1984, 52

[Sevenbak]

This logic isn't perfect actually. Take horses. Originally thought they came over with the conquistadors. Now we know differently. Archeology changes, my friend,and to trust it, ya gotta know that you could have to change your opinion in the future ;-).

[Nathair/|\]

Here is how Brother Joseph and Sidney Rigdon described Him one time they saw Him:

2We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit, before us; and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold, in color like amber. 3His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:

4I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.

Doctrine and Covenants 110

[Sevenbak]

Here is how Brother Joseph and Sidney Rigdon described Him one time they saw Him:

I'm pretty sure that was Oliver Cowdry that saw that particular vision of the glorified Savior with Joseph.

The vision Rigdon had with Joseph came earlier... I think.

[Nathair/|\]

I'm pretty sure that was Oliver Cowdry that saw that particular vision of the glorified Savior with Joseph.

The vision Rigdon had with Joseph came earlier... I think.

Yeah, you are right. Sorry for the Brain Fart. You caught it before I could fix it.

[erichard]

... I've also wondered why Jesus is usually (at least in the LDS church) portrayed as being caucasian, when he wasn't.

...

Hi,

This wikipedia article quotes ancient Middle Eastern writings that speak of blue eyed and light skinned people there anciently.

And there are many other evidences that light complected, blue eyed people lived in the Middle East in antiquity, and during the time of Christ.

King David, a direct ancestor of Jesus, is described as being "ruddy", which is usually only associated with what are known as whites today:

And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was

ruddy

, and withal of a

beautiful countenance

, and goodly to look to. And the Lord said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. -- 1 Sam 16:12

And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and

ruddy

, and of a

fair countenance

. --1 Sam 17:42

Joseph Smith, who was white and blue eyed claimed he was a pure Ephriamite. The tribes of Israel were racially similar by my understanding. So I am convinced that a pure Judahite would be similar to Joseph racially.

Some Eastern European Jew have blue eyed and fair complexion. If you can believe they, who had been there for untold hundreds of years, and who then immigrated to Israel and discarded the Yiddish language and learned Hebrew, were part of the same people of Judah that were there 2000 years ago, why should it be so hard to believe that Jesus might have had a fair complexion and blue eyes?

Richard

[Tramper]

I think of the picture of Jesus that is very common in LDS circles.

http://lds.org/hf/art/display/1,16842,4218-1-2-83,00.html

And I would not say he looks like a Caucasian from Sweden.

I would say this picture is not to far off of the 2001 CGI of what Jesus may have looked like. Olive skin runs in my family and I am Caucasian, so I don;'t know what all the hubbub is.

I visited Scandinavia a few years ago. I met hundreds of Swedish/Danish/Norwegian men who looks like this picture.

For instance take a look at Benny Andersson former member of the pop group Abba ... http://www.fanpix.net/gallery/benny-andersson-pictures.htm

Look especially at this picture http://www.fanpix.net/picture-gallery/benny-andersson-picture-14277572.htm

Edited July 17, 2011 by Tramper

[HeatherAnn]

That is his promise... to not be a respecter of persons =).

Yes, & we'd do well to follow his example.

Erichard,

Just as in Middle Eastern countries, there may have & be some with lighter complexions, but the majority have darker skin.

If Jesus had lighter skin, he would've stood out... yet remember, the guards could not tell him apart from his apostles, so Judas dinstinguised him with a kiss of betrayal?

Nathair,

Thanks for the laugh... "brain fart" ha ha.

Tramper,

Israel is a tad far away from Scandinavia... maybe that was your point, though.

Sevenbak,

When you feel the spirit, is it through your optical lenses?

"All spirit is matter, but is more fine or pure, & can only be discerned by purer eyes. We cannot see it, but when our bodies are purified, we shall see that it is all matter." - Joseph Smith

"The kingom of God cometh NOT with observation... the kingdom of God is within you." - Jesus (Luke 17:20, 21)

[HeatherAnn]

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Thou shat not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..." - Exodus 19:4,5

Maybe the reason why this was listed as one of the 10 commandements is because it's important! Keeping this commandment could be a challenge & in breaking it (even slightly) - could cause problems, as with racial prejudice, in inaccurately portraying images of Jesus...And Book of Mormon scriptures associating righteousness with fair skin contributes to "mischief."

"Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?" - Psalms 94:20

"Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, & that write grievousness which they have prescribed." - Isaiah 10:1

"See that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged." -Moroni 7:18