Why Engraven Images Of A Caucasian Jesus?

[HeatherAnn]

Jeff,

When one assumes that Jesus must look like them & makes images portraying him that way & displaying it with spotlights in places of worship, despite commandments not to, that is pride & hubris.

When one assumes because one is not affected by racial prejudice in LDS scriptures & in incorrect images of Jesus, that others are not negatively affected by such racial prejudice, that is pride & hubris.

[Jeff K.]

Nor did I write, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart & mind & the 2nd is like unto it... thou shalt love thy neighbor as theyself... On these laws hang ALL the laws and the prophets."

Yet, I know it's true, because of how I feel within when I love and am loved... & I know that we are "spiritual beings having a rare human experience" & that we should do as God & look upon the heart of ourselves & others.

No, you would simply not allow others to express their love of Christ, unless it fits your narrow scope.

I know an artist that has painted Christ. She spends hours looking for the faces that create the most humble and yet majestic mix she can find. She takes so much time searching photographs, looking in books and reading, just to be in that spiritual mood. There isn't a racist thought in her mind as she attempts to produce those features that are most Christ like.

The artist was not forced. She thought mightily upon the process of love and how to express it.

Edited July 20, 2011 by Jeff K.

[LeSellers]

No but you took it out of context, made it a false commandment and then impressed others that yours is the only interpretation. You call that "standing up for what's right"? I call it pride and hubris.

Do you mean the authors that also wrote....

You have yet to reconcile your inconsistencies with the scriptures and the prophets. I would call that straining a gnat.

Who are you talking to?

"Reply" is not that difficult to use. It does the "hard work" for you, and the rest of us can follow the conversation.

Lehi

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

When one assumes that Jesus must look like them & makes images portraying him that way & displaying it with spotlights in places of worship, despite commandments not to, that is pride & hubris.

When one assumes because one is not affected by racial prejudice in LDS scriptures & in incorrect images of Jesus, that others are not negatively affected by such racial prejudice, that is pride & hubris.

No one assumes Jesus must look like anyone, that is no one except you. The images portrayed are merely artists attempting to offer their best fruits to the highest aspirations of what they can imagine. I call that a offering to the Lord of first fruits, the best that can be offered. You call it racism. I do not think those artists are racist, whether Asian or Middle Eastern, I think they approach their work with humility and ask the spirit to guide them. You on the other hand are judging them as racists and judging them as being prejudiced. I would say you should look carefully at your own pride and hubris before judging others.

[Jeff K.]

Who are you talking to?

"Reply" is not that difficult to use. It does the "hard work" for you, and the rest of us can follow the conversation.

Lehi

There, done.

[HeatherAnn]

No, you would simply not allow others to express their love of Christ, unless it fits your narrow scope.

Although you are wrongfully acussing me in a couple of ways, you bring up a good point about resonating.

True love is not superficial... true love does not love Jesus only if he looks like them.

True love is wanting & striving for what is best... He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for "God is love."

Christ is not Jesus' last name, but what he became & encouraged us to become.

Why would you want to focus externally on one image when worship & spirituality happens INSIDE of us?

There is a reason why we were given the 2nd commandment to not make any graven images in ANY way regarding worship.

The process... as Jesus clearly explained, The kingdom of God... is within us, and does not come with observation.

Still, how we resonate isn't as important as resonating itself. If somebody must imagine a white Jesus to feel close to him, so be it.

Yet, to make images of this so we can better worship, is clearly breaking the 2nd commandment.

Eventually, as one strives to be more loving & more godlike, one will learn to resonate with a deeper love.

And one won't have to imagine Jesus white, dark or anything, but will realize that each person one comes across IS a child of God... & how we treat others is treating Jesus.

Believe it or not, I am a much harsher judge on myself than others.

At this moment, I have pictures of a white Jesus in my home - one of which my mom did (based on modern day Jewish men), & another my sister did.

They came from their hearts & I appreciate their good intentions. Yet, that doesn't detract from the pain I've seen of racial prejudice among church members.

Having images of white Jesus for purposes of worship not only violates the 2nd commandment...

It also supports lds racially prejudice scriptures, and hurts people, violating the most important commandments - to love God & others as ourselves.

Edited July 20, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Pahoran]

MolaRamSudaRam,

A racially prejudice picture is portraying someone who orginally had dark skin with light skin.

Thank you for giving us your opinion.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus.

An interesting link. Have you read it? What do you think of the Ethiopian artists who portay Jesus as African? Are they producing "racially prejudice" [sic] pictures? What about the Chinese portrayal of Jesus with almond-shaped eyes and a tiny Asian nose? Is that a "racially prejudice" [sic] picture?

Or are only "white" people capable of producing "racially prejudice" [sic] pictures?

Yet, what's more important is not trying to make ANY image out of someone we worship... which breaks the 2nd commandment & corrupts Jesus' teachings, which were originally to focus within instead of externally.

You have been given valid scriptural reasons why your interpretation is not correct. You have failed entirely to address or engage these. Merely reasserting an unsupported opinion is not enough; not when evidence to the contrary is on the table.

I stand up for what is right, when I see people are blind to it & their blindness hurts them & others.

If you think this is straining at a gnat, take it up with God or Jesus (or the authors that quoted them)...

I didn't write, "Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing..."

Nor did I write this:

Exodus 25:

18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

This has been pointed out to you at least three times in this thread, HeatherAnn, and you have not condescended to address it. Yet unless you do so, it remains fatal to your forced interpretation of the commandment. Either the Lord was breaking it when He gave those instructions to Moses, or the commandment did not actually mean that such representations were forbidden. Which was it?

Nor did I write, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart & mind & the 2nd is like unto it... thou shalt love thy neighbor as theyself... On these laws hang ALL the laws and the prophets."

Yet, I know it's true, because of how I feel within when I love and am loved... & I know that we are "spiritual beings having a rare human experience" & that we should do as God & look upon the heart of ourselves & others.

I fail entirely to see that it is unloving to show a picture of Jesus that does not look exactly like a given person. Since Jesus was a genuine human male, it follows that He did not look exactly like everybody. Is it "unloving" to mention that He wasn't a woman? Must all women henceforth feel rejected, degraded, excluded, second-class because Jesus didn't look like them, and in ways far more fundamental than anything as trivial and superficial as mere pigmentation?

I didn't write these scriptures either...

"And I beheld the spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper & obtain the land for their inheritance; & I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair & beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain." -1Nephi 13:15

"And he caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, & exceedingly fair & delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." -2Nephi 5:21

"And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression & their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, & Joseph, & Sam, who were just & holy men."-Alma 3:6

Yes, you keep throwing the same handful of passages in our faces. To what purpose?

And see what "mischief" has come of having white images of a Middle-Eastern Jesus as well as Book of Mormon scriptures associating righteousness with fair skin...

I don't know; what "mischief" has come of it? You keep repeating that word, evidently as a pretext to use the next lot of passages as bludgeons against your opponents, but you have yet to show (or even attempt to show) that it actually applies.

"Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?" - Psalms 94:20

Application to this thread?

"Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, & that write grievousness which they have prescribed." - Isaiah 10:1

"See that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged." -Moroni 7:18

The irony being that you, HeatherAnn, seem to be the one who is wrongfully judging everyone who disagrees with you on this point.

Regards,

Pahoran

[volgadon]

And see what "mischief" has come of having white images of a Middle-Eastern Jesus

Mola posted a painting of Christ that looks very similar to a guy I served with in the army. He was a half-Moroccan and half-Kurdish Jew.

[Jeff K.]

True love is not superficial... true love does not love Jesus only if he looks like them.

True love is wanting & striving for what is best... He who doesn't love doesn't know God, for "God is love."

You seem to be relatively ignorant of what goes into art, and how true love is built into art, as well as architecture. I can understand how pride and hubris would blind you to the humble efforts of artists who express their love for Christ. I am sorry that you disdain the use of their talents in order to show Christ as the best they have to offer. I am sorry that you think artists who do this are by their nature racists (even as other races take part in the such offerings). Yours must be a cold and empty world with strict calvinist limitations. Such is unfortunate since God, the apostles, the prophets and scriptures disagree with you and your limited interpretation.

I of course am still waiting for you to reconcile the other scriptures presented with the one you have made your own personal gospel hobby.

Still, how we resonate is important. If somebody must imagine a white Jesus to feel close to him, so be it.

Yet, to make images of this so we can better worship, is clearly breaking the 2nd commandment.

Eventually, as one strives to be more loving & more godlike, one will learn to resonate with a deeper love.

And one won't have to imagine Jesus white, dark or anything, but will realize that each person one comes across IS a child of God... & how we treat others is treating Jesus.

One wonders, with the emphasis you place on painting whether you would recognize Jesus when you saw Him. You see, the painting is the struggle of the artist to produce the best that is within us all. I appreciate that in such paintings regardless of the depiction of race. I look for those facets of wisdom, love and humility. I know I will see them when I see Christ. All you see is racism. One wonders then, whether or not you will "resonate" because you only see the wrong and evil, while those who sought the good, will most likely recognize it in the face they see. And not care a wit about the fleshtone before them when He appears.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Jeff K.

[HeatherAnn]

An interesting link. Have you read it? What do you think of the Ethiopian artists who portay Jesus as African? Are they producing "racially prejudice" [sic] pictures? What about the Chinese portrayal of Jesus with almond-shaped eyes and a tiny Asian nose? Is that a "racially prejudice" [sic] picture?

Or are only "white" people capable of producing "racially prejudice" [sic] pictures?

Of course not. Every imperfect human being is capable of it.

Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

This has been pointed out to you at least three times in this thread, HeatherAnn, and you have not condescended to address it. Yet unless you do so, it remains fatal to your forced interpretation of the commandment. Either the Lord was breaking it when He gave those instructions to Moses, or the commandment did not actually mean that such representations were forbidden. Which was it?

The commandment given was to not make images for the purpose of worship. There was no commandment against art, nor beauty, nor decoring the temple. The commandment was to keep spiritual worship within, not external. God did not want him, her nor of "any likeness" to be portrayed in an image.

And about not adressing it before... I haven't felt like adressing every insult or argument against my posts or against me.

I fail entirely to see that it is unloving to show a picture of Jesus that does not look exactly like a given person. Since Jesus was a genuine human male, it follows that He did not look exactly like everybody. Is it "unloving" to mention that He wasn't a woman? Must all women henceforth feel rejected, degraded, excluded, second-class because Jesus didn't look like them, and in ways far more fundamental than anything as trivial and superficial as mere pigmentation?

If you looked similar to Jewish men during the time of Christ, with darker skin, you'd understand how portraying one who actually looked like you, to look white, is offensive.

It is unloving to paint someone who obviously was Middle-Eastern with darker skin, to look caucasian. It's like saying, "We can only love a Jesus who looks white."

It is also unloving to continue to print & teach racial prejudice found in the Book of Mormon.

I've heard it asked, "Why did Jesus come as a man?"... Some worship a woman figure of Mary.

Some believe God is more female than male, since females are the most creative one... nurturing & giving physical life... & spiritual life.

Personally, I believe God is both, Male & Female.

Yes, you keep throwing the same handful of passages in our faces. To what purpose?

For the same reason you've thrown passages at our face... to make your point.

I don't know; what "mischief" has come of it? You keep repeating that word, evidently as a pretext to use the next lot of passages as bludgeons against your opponents, but you have yet to show (or even attempt to show) that it actually applies.

Maybe you haven't read all of my posts, which is understandable - there've been a lot.

When a lds member refuses to take sacrament from an Aaronic priesthood holder because he has dark skin... it's "mischief."

Most of the racial prejudice I've witnessed is more subtle - disrespect - ignoring.

When we discussed this topic in SundaySchool, many told me that Heavenly Father is white, or used other justification for prejudice.

I happen to have family & friends who I love deeply, who happen to have dark skin. It breaks my heart when I see lds members treat them as "less than."

It also breaks my heart to see incorrect racial prejudice taught in a church proclaiming to be of God & Christ.

Edited July 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[volgadon]

Some believe God is more female than male, since females are the most creative one

With a very long line of exceptions to the rule including (in no particular order) Homer, Hesiod, El Greco, Da Vinci, Rembrandt, Michaelangelo, Camoens, Chaucer, Donne, Blake, Coledridge, Dylan, Dylan Thomas, Chekhov, Bulgakov, Rublyov, de Maupassant, Roerich, Kipling, Warhol, Shelley, Somerset Maugham, Saki, Waugh, Beardsley, Chapman, Sabatini, Turner, and O. Henry.

[volgadon]

In Nazareth, at the Catholic Church of the Anunciation there is a long wall with artwork depicting the Virgin Mary donated by Catholics the world over, from Japan to Myanmar to Ukraine to Slovenia to Sweden to France to Sub-Saharan Africa and South America. Its all very moving.

In some cases she is depicted as a Northern European, in others as an East Asian, South American, or Black African. I think that very, very few actually look like Mary might have. That doesn't matter!

I would love it if someone were to paint a picture of Jesus as a clean-shaven eastern Medditeranean type in 1st c. Hellenistic clothes, but that doesn't mean that paintings of him as a European are offensive. BTW, for the first 6 or 7 years of my life I was practically the only blond, blue-eyed kid in a community of mainly North-African Jews, so I have experienced racism and bullying. So bally what.

[HeatherAnn]

BTW, for the first 6 or 7 years of my life I was practically the only blond, blue-eyed kid in a community of mainly North-African Jews, so I have experienced racism and bullying. So bally what.

So... maybe you're returning the favor.

If you think racism & bullying is ok, that's your opinion.

I believe it's morally wrong & ungodlike.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1John 4:8

Edited July 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[volgadon]

So... maybe you're returning the favor.

If you think racism & bullying is ok, that's your opinion.

I believe it's morally wrong & ungodlike.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1John 4:8

So you really are claiming that having a picture of a European looking Jesus is racist bullying?

Are you really saying that having a picture of a European looking Jesus is the equivalent of beating someone up for having different (in my case, blond) hair colour?

Wow, some love you have.

[Pahoran]

Of course not. Every imperfect human being is capable of it.

I'm glad to see you admit that. For a long time, I thought this thread was largely an expression of "white guilt."

The commandment given was to not make images for the purpose of worship. There was no commandment against art, nor beauty, nor decoring the temple. The commandment was to keep spiritual worship within, not externally. God did not want him, her nor of "any likeness" to be portrayed in an image.

Such is your interpretation. It is wrong. The simple, straightforward meaning is that it was forbidding idolatry:

Exodus 20:

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

You see, it's not about "keep spiritual worship within" at all. That is mere sentimental mush. It is about worshipping God and no-one or nothing else. It follows directly from the first commandment, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," and the majority of Christians actually see it as an expansion upon that.

And about not adressing it before... I haven't felt like adressing every insult or argument against my posts or against me.

What "insult" do you see in pointing out that God commanded Moses to make actual images of things "in the heavens above" and "the earth beneath" to be used in connection with worship? Does it "insult" you every time you are confronted with a fact that disagrees with your opinions?

You started this thread, HeatherAnn. And while you are in nowise obligated to respond to every single post, you need to remember that this is a forum for discussion, not a pulpit for you to preach from. Ignoring relevant points, and merely reasserting your opinion as though those points were never made, is boorish and rude.

If you looked similar to Jewish men during the time of Christ, with darker skin, you'd understand how portraying one who actually looked like you, to look white, is offensive.

No. It is not.

Not to any rational person, anyway.

Mel Gibson is about a foot shorter than William Wallace was, but how many people in Scotland, or of Scottish extraction, were mortally offended by him being the one to portray Wallace in Braveheart? He doesn't look like the real guy!

But then again, Scots are not dark-skinned, so I suppose that doesn't count.

It is unloving to paint someone who obviously was middle-eastern with darker skin, to look caucasian. It's like saying, "We can only love a Jesus who looks white."

No. It is not.

It's like saying, "let's paint a picture that people will recognise as Jesus."

The fact you have still failed to address -- and I'd bet real money you will not address, no matter how many pages this thread runs to -- is that nobody knows what Jesus looked like in life anyway. The reconstruction you keep pointing everyone to was NOT!!! Jesus. It was, at best, one of his neighbours. Absolutely everyone, without exception, who purports to depict Jesus is guessing.

So when you pass judgement upon people on no better grounds than that they prefer one guess over another, you are judging unrighteously.

It is also unloving to continue to print & teach racial prejudice found in the Book of Mormon.

There is no "racial prejudice found in the Book of Mormon."

In my view, it is unloving to accuse people of "racial prejudice" simply because they like art you don't.

But that's just my view.

I've heard it asked, "Why did Jesus come as a man?"... Some worship a woman figure of Mary.

Some believe God is more female than male, since females are the most creative one... nurturing & giving physical life... & spiritual life.

Personally, I believe God is both, Male & Female.

Again, that is your opinion, and you're entitled to it.

Jesus, if He actually had a face for anyone to cruelly and maliciously mis-draw, was male, however.

For the same reason you've thrown passages at our face... to make your point.

But your passages don't actually support any point relating to pictures of Jesus. They merely support the "point" that people who are so gosh-darned enlightened as to agree with you, are thereby so splendidly superior to the rest of us ignorant rednecks who supposedly think Jesus spoke American English (with a midwestern twang.)

Maybe you haven't read all of my posts, which is understandable - there've been a lot.

When a lds member refuses to take sacrament from an Aaronic priesthood holder because he has dark skin... it's "mischief."

I've never heard of that happening. But if it did, then the member in question would in apostasy; his idiocy would hurt only himself.

Most of the racial prejudice I've witnessed is more subtle - disrespect - ignoring.

When we discussed this topic in SundaySchool, many told me that Heavenly Father is white, or used other justification for prejudice.

So what? People say all sorts of things in Sunday School.

I happen to have family & friends who I love deeply, who happen to have dark skin. It breaks my heart when I see lds members treat them as "less than."

That's never happened to my dark-skinned family. Perhaps that's why my white guilt isn't as highly sensitive as yours.

It also breaks my heart to see incorrect racial prejudice taught in a church proclaiming to be of God & Christ.

And of course it would be cruelly insensitive of me not to validate your feelings. Well, since the Church does not teach racial prejudice, I hope your poor broken heart will mend soon.

Regards,

Pahoran

[TAO]

Of course not. Every imperfect human being is capable of it.

The commandment given was to not make images for the purpose of worship. There was no commandment against art, nor beauty, nor decoring the temple. The commandment was to keep spiritual worship within, not external. God did not want him, her nor of "any likeness" to be portrayed in an image.

And about not adressing it before... I haven't felt like adressing every insult or argument against my posts or against me.

Heatherann.... heatherann....

I am guessing you are thinking right now that we are resisting what you are saying.

To an extent, that is correct. But... I think we understand what you are saying. We disagree with it though. We interpret things differently.

Now... let's say there was an Arab man who drew Jesus like an Arab... to show Arab pride. That would be racist, yes. But if that same man, did so... searching for humble faces... as Jeff said... simply for the love of Christ, it would be wonderful. The man would not be racist.

Now we have many pictures of Christ... in many races. And yet... it isn't the historical aspect that is important in the pictures. It is the spirit that is within them. No, not a spiritual spirit... I mean the uplifting thought it promotes. That is what makes pictures of Christ so beautiful and so effective. The pictures remind us of our God above, and how much he loves us. The picture doesn't love us... God does... and he reminds us. =)

Now... you say... "The commandment given was to not make images for the purpose of worship." So, if that is the case, then why have scriptures... or have churchs... or have any of those things. Why have mountains... and valleys... or any works of God. When you admire a mountain... it is God's transcendent beauty that is upon it... it is his creation... and it shows us what marvelous works he has done upon the Earth, and to create it. Is there anything different between admiring a mountain, and admiring a picture of Christ that was given in the spirit of love? For me... they are both the same... both representations of God's love, beauty, and power. =D.

Now, you say... 'The commandment was to keep spiritual worship within, not external'. However... this was the Old Law, was it not? The Old Law... it was based on sacrifices. Animal Sacrifices... and other things. Burnt Offerings. This is a physical form of worship. It is not wholely spiritual... it was meant to lead, and prepare us for things spiritual which the Lord God had prepared and intended to give us from the beginning of time. It was a 'type' of things to come... so it says in the scriptures... just as Abraham preparing to sacrifice Jacob was a type of the things to come (Jesus being sacrificed on the cross, allowed through Heavenly Father... despite his love).

Now... if God did not want his likeness, or any image of such... why did he create us then? We are in the likeness and image of God. Whenever we have humans... we are portraying a bit of God, in it... inside of us. Art with humans... sculptings... paintings... other art forms... they all have a bit of God in them... because he created us... and we created them... and because they portray us.

Now, I do agree that God does not want art that causes much contention, stress, and disorder. But I believe that the pictures of Christ are probably about the closest you can get to pure art.... pure and pleasing to the Spirit... perfect, because it portrays him in his humility and gentleness... teaching us how to be better people. I realize... some may use this as an improper justification... as did that man when he refused to take the sacrament from an Aaronic Priesthood holder. That is not what Christ is about. But the pictures are good... it's the people who misrepresent them that made the mistake... not the artist who drew the picture with a full heart. =3.

If you looked similar to Jewish men during the time of Christ, with darker skin, you'd understand how portraying one who actually looked like you, to look white, is offensive.

Not really, my friend XD. I don't really care how people look at me physically. Physically, I am in the image of God... but so is everyone else. Even portrayed differently, I'd still be in his image, and still have his gift =).

It is unloving to paint someone who obviously was Middle-Eastern with darker skin, to look caucasian. It's like saying, "We can only love a Jesus who looks white."

Well... you can talk to Volgadon about such... but it is not known what type of skin color he had. But in any case... it isn't unloving =D. In fact... I'd prefer it if it got the message across better =). I really wouldn't care how I was portrayed as long as I had a giant big smile =D. Not sure what Jesus would say... but I'm pretty sure he would not care so much either... as long as his message of love, peace, and kindness was there =).

It is also unloving to continue to print & teach racial prejudice found in the Book of Mormon.

Is the Book of Mormon racist though?

I was reading a certain part in it, today. Helaman 6-8 to be precise. It deals with... the righteousness of the Laminates... and them coming to teach the Nephites. =) One set of verses that I loved was:

4 And it came to pass that many of the Lamanites did come down into the land of Zarahemla, and did declare unto the people of the Nephites the manner of their ^aconversion, and did exhort them to faith and repentance.

5 Yea, and many did ^apreach with exceedingly great power and authority, unto the bringing down many of them into the depths of humility, to be the humble followers of God and the Lamb.

Helaman 6:4-5

...unto the bringing down many of them into the depths of humility... I like that part... that is really what it means... to be a humbler, servant of God. It is what it means to be happy, to have eternal life, with him, forever. And the Lamanites did this for their cousins, the Nephites... who were wollowing in sin, and iniquity. They did such... a great service, for their fellow man.

No, the Book of Mormon is most certainly not racist =). It is one of the books that shows that race is not a determining factor of righteousness, in fact =D. It shows... that we can overcome our physical selves... and become... something much more. Samuel the Laminate was truly an awesome guy, indeed... he was one of the most powerful, daring, and loving prophets to do what he did =D. Some of his words, I like also:

30 And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto ^ahimself; and whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are ^bfree; ye are permitted to act for yourselves; for behold, God hath given unto you a ^cknowledge and he hath made you free.

31 He hath given unto you that ye might ^aknow good from evil, and he hath given unto you that ye might ^bchoose life or death; and ye can do good and be ^crestored unto that which is good, or have that which is good restored unto you; or ye can do evil, and have that which is evil restored unto you.

True words. Very few people were more farseeing then Samuel. =)

I've heard it asked, "Why did Jesus come as a man?"... Some worship a woman figure of Mary.

Why did he come as a man? I do not know. I believe gender is eternal though... and this was his choice. In the pre-existence, perhaps this was his gender. Or perhaps there is a more glorious reason? I do not know, my friend... I do not know, but I trust God that it works =).

Some believe God is more female than male, since females are the most creative one... nurturing & giving physical life... & spiritual life.

It depends, I suppose, on what you are referring to. God has many meanings in today's world. I am sure the Lord is male. I am also sure Father is male. But I am not sure all Gods are male. After all, exaltation results in the creation of a female God =). A pair of Gods.... is a beautiful thing to behold =D. But I will leave my questions till later, when I talk to the Lord face to face, and am able to meet him, and shake his hand... clean his feet...if I am able to, that is =).

Personally, I believe God is both, Male & Female.

=).

For the same reason you've thrown passages at our face... to make your point.

Isn't that what apologetics is... throwing passages... to make a point =/.

Eh... it didn't serve Socrates too well, in the least XD. Actually... it may have been what killed him... besides his personal choice, to stay, and to not be exiled.

I think apologetics is a useful thing... but only useful when we are asked... the Lord asks me to restrain myself alot of the time... sometimes I don't listen tho =(.

Maybe you haven't read all of my posts, which is understandable - there've been a lot.

When a lds member refuses to take sacrament from an Aaronic priesthood holder because he has dark skin... it's "mischief."

My friend... if he does that... he really isn't a member of Christ's church yet... in the spiritual sense. I don't think many of us are, in fact... we all have many problems we have to fix... we climb the ladder... to find out there is more to climb =). We are a part of the church, I guess... but we aren't at the goal yet, we haven't reached the top =D.

Most of the racial prejudice I've witnessed is more subtle - disrespect - ignoring.

When we discussed this topic in SundaySchool, many told me that Heavenly Father is white, or used other justification for prejudice.

You need to come down to Cali =D. Really =). It'd be good =D. Awsome people down here... much harder, some of the time... but very good people in the church mostly =).

In any case... the people who are ignoring... it is there weakness... let us be free of malice of them though. Christ promised us that if we humbled ourselves before him, and had faith in him we could overcome any weakness we had. Let us do that my friend... overcome our malice... forgive them... even if they haven't fixed that yet... and move on... be loving... fix the problems that occur.... teach mildly, humbly, and of the truth =). We can do what we can... but then Christ... and them have to do the rest. Christ will fufill his part, I am sure... so it just means we have to wait for them. Sometimes they won't come... but I have a feeling, Heather, that Christ will teach many of them, if they are open to it =).

Yah, that's the spirit =D !

I happen to have family & friends who I love deeply, who happen to have dark skin. It breaks my heart when I see lds members treat them as "less than."

It also breaks my heart to see incorrect racial prejudice taught in a church proclaiming to be of God & Christ.

I have cousins also, who have somewhat darker skin. They are Hispanic actually... and they aren't members of the church. But they are epically awesome people... and I will get angry at anybody who says otherwise =D. !!!!

Random blip - At this point, I am feeling very much like the cat in my avy =3. I <3 cats. =D.

Happy Wishes and Loving Wishes,

-TAO

Edited July 21, 2011 by TAO

[erichard]

... If somebody must imagine a white Jesus to feel close to him, so be it. ...

Hi HeatherAnn,

One implication of your conviction that Jesus had to be dark skinned is that you are also saying that the non-dark skinned Jews in Israel today are not real Jews.

Right?

Do you believe that Jesus was racially similar to his forefather Judah? Judah had an uncle (Esau) who was red-haired. Before hair dye, red hair was a trait pretty much only found in light skinned people.

By the way, I do not feel "guilt" for being white. There are good and bad people in every race. Whites have probably had the worst of the worst. Still, anti-racism is a codeword for anti-white pretty much every time the topic comes up.

Right?

Richard

[HeatherAnn]

Thanks for your comments.

ERichard,

Saying that people who live in Israel today look the same as they did 2,000 years ago, is even more extreme than saying all Native Americans were white, since most Americans are.

Check out Jewish history the last 2,000 years & you'll understand what I mean.

Tao,

You made a good point that the 2nd commandment's interpretation & application is not clearly discerned.

I'd say more people have actively worshiped someone they were in love with, or spent more time engaged with Media, more than with God, though they may not consider it "worship."

God is too abstract & too seemingly futuristic... so we try to compensate & resonate with what we are more familiar with.

It's understandable that we'd imagine Jesus to be what we're most familiar with, yet to make an image out of someone specifically for the enhancement of worship does go against the 2nd commandment. God didn't want worship to be limited to one type of person or thing, as it limits when images are created. God & love is found in ALL... & is internal not external.

Pahoran,

If you think "keeping spiritual worship within is mere sentimental mush" - then how do you propose to feel the spirit & worship externally?

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

See Iconoclasm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm

[Jeff K.]

I imagine those who hold Heatheranns view could, without a twinge of conscience burn paintings of Christ, destroy images that were done with the ideal of loving Christ, and even desecrate them because they are unholy. All for that greater good, and their personal interpretation.

One can of course also ignore prophets, apostles, scripture, and hold to ones own deeply held interpretation of a single verse using rationalized ideals. But usually when one ignores prophets apostles and scriptures and holds to their own unique interpretation, they find themselves separated from God and His servants. I do not know if that is the goal of such firmly held beliefs. I do not know if they themselves know they are shooting beyond the mark, that somehow they have missed the mark which is Jesus Christ, and have instead focused upon singular rules. The Pharisees and Sadducees have shown that such adherence leads to a rejection of Christ. One should be careful when one goes down that path.

To the question of a rathionalization regarding racism: There is no racism in the many paintings I have seen. There is no racism in the hearts of the painters, nor in the those observing the paintings regardless of the complexion used to represent Christ. I suppose one can implant the idea of racism, one can promote it, hoping it will grow. But it doesn't mean its there, but where does the seed come from then? We can only ask the farmer.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

I don't/can't know about HeatherAnn's personal motivations. She's not my patient. But I do agree that taken to the extremes such ideas do lead to gross violations of basic human rights

Something the Saints are very well aware of.

[Jeff K.]

I just remember how angry I was when this statue was destroyed by the Taliban in Afghanistan. The statue was not worshipped, it merely reflected an aspect of Siddhattha Gotama.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Jeff K.

[thesometimesaint]

Agreed.

[erichard]

Thanks for your comments.

ERichard,

Saying that people who live in Israel today look the same as they did 2,000 years ago, is even more extreme than saying all Native Americans were white, since most Americans are.

Check out Jewish history the last 2,000 years & you'll understand what I mean.

...

No one is saying there were not both dark and light skinned people in Israel at the time of Christ. I do not see your point.

If you do an image search of ancient greek statutes, guess what? They actually do look a lot like us today. So there were people who looked like us in that area of the world anciently.

Here is an image from a hellenized town (Tzippori) 3.7 miles away from Nazareth dated from near the time of Christ:

Obviously there were many kinds of people in the Middle East 2000 years ago. Jesus was descended from a people who would not marry outside their religion, which pretty much also meant outside their race. I believe the evidence is that Jesus was similar racially to his ancestors back to the time of the Patriarchs.

Richard

[HeatherAnn]

Jeff & Thesometimessaint,

Moses threw down the commandments & demanded the golden calf be destroyed. Jesus cleared out the temple with a whip.

So, Moses & Jesus were "iconodules." Yet what you label it, isn't as important as doing what's right.

They saw people focusing on external pride, instead of internal & knew it was wrong, so they let them know.

Do you think they liked it? Did the people like Nephi telling them the truth?

"And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; & the righteous have I justified, & testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." -1Nephi 16:2

It is written that God revealed this commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto them the 3rd & 4th generation fo them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, & keep my commandments." - Exodus 20: 4-6

And Jesus explained what triumphs over all the laws & prophets are to love God & love others as ourselves.

If you're upset with these commandments, take it up with Moses, Jesus & God.

ERichard,

Before travel was easier, people tended to stay in one area & looked more alike.

Jesus & his parents went to Egypt (Africa) to hide from Herod... so they must have blended in pretty well.

From advanced archeological forensics (& studies of skulls etc.) we know what a typical man during Jesus' time & area might have looked like...

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus

If Jesus was white, he would have stood out, yet he didn't because Judas had to point him out for the guards, by betraying Jesus with a kiss.

Still, what is most important is that we don't make an image out of who we worship.

Imagine you had a very sacred spiritual experience. You decided to share it publically, while requesting others respect your wish to not turn it into their own images. But you were disappointed to discover many twisted your experience, focused & magnified the wrong details, made cartoons of it, & commercialized it, by making stickers, bookmarks, website pictures, paintings etc. with images of their twisted version of your sacred spiritual experience.

How would you feel?

How do you think God & Jesus feel?

Edited July 21, 2011 by HeatherAnn