Why Engraven Images Of A Caucasian Jesus?

[Pahoran]

Pahoran,

If you think "keeping spiritual worship within is mere sentimental mush" - then how do you propose to feel the spirit & worship externally?

You are changing the subject, HeatherAnn. The point is that "keeping spiritual worship within" is not what the second commandment is about. Claiming that it is, is mere sentimental mush at best.

Jeff & Thesometimessaint,

Moses threw down the commandments & demanded the golden calf be destroyed. Jesus cleared out the temple with a whip.

So, Moses & Jesus were "iconodules." Yet what you label it, isn't as important as doing what's right.

They saw people focusing on external pride, instead of internal & knew it was wrong, so they let them know.

I'm sorry HeatherAnn, but that is undiluted wastewater from a swine cleaing facility.

Moses saw Israel worshipping an idol, the graven image of a pagan god, in direct disobedience to the commandment which they had already received. Jesus saw the money-changers defiling the holy place with worldly commercialism and (probably) price gouging. If any of the offenders in either case were "focusing on external pride, instead of internal," that was merely incidental to the real offenses in view, which were, respectively, idolatry and desecration of the Temple.

Do you think they liked it? Did the people like Nephi telling them the truth?

"And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; & the righteous have I justified, & testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center." -1Nephi 16:2

How is that relevant to anything?

Yes, the wicked take the truth to be hard. OTOH, the falsely accused aren't too chuffed about being arrogantly judged, either. So the reaction of the target of your accusations is not evidence that you are in the right.

It is written that God revealed this commandment, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto them the 3rd & 4th generation fo them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, & keep my commandments." - Exodus 20: 4-6

And Jesus explained what triumphs over all the laws & prophets are to love God & love others as ourselves.

If you're upset with these commandments, take it up with Moses, Jesus & God.

No, we are not "upset with these commandments." We dispute the validity of your tendentious, self-serving misinterpretation and misapplication of these commandments. Thus, we will take it up with you.

It has been demonstrated to you, again and again and again and again and again, that your interpretation is wrong and was not adopted by those who first articulated these commandments. Not once have you deigned to engage the arguments that eviscerate your interpretation.

Which tells me that you cannot deal with them. Yet you continue to push your interpretation, and when challenged, you sidestep the issue by saying "take it up with Jesus!" Sorry, HeatherAnn, but we're not falling for such a transparent dodge.

ERichard,

Before travel was easier, people tended to stay in one area & looked more alike.

In the time of Jesus, the Levant was the crossroads of the East. It was as cosmopolitan in its day as New York City is in ours.

Jesus & his parents went to Egypt (Africa) to hide from Herod... so they must have blended in pretty well.

Egypt is in north Africa (where black folks are thin on the ground) and the Egyptian art of the period shows that native Egyptians were not black. Furthermore, as has been pointed out to you -- and as you have, of course, failed to acknowledge -- the northern part of Egypt had an awful lot of Greeks (i.e. Europeans) in it.

And the main point about fleeing to another country is not that you become invisible among the populace, but that the authorities from back home have no jurisdiction. Herod couldn't touch Joseph's family in Egypt because HEROD WAS NOT KING OF EGYPT.

You have leaped to an unwarranted conclusion.

From advanced archeological forensics (& studies of skulls etc.) we know what a typical man during Jesus' time & area might have looked like...

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus

As has been pointed out to you again and again and again, and as you have failed to respond to again and again and again: that person is not Jesus. I can see people who look like that every day, but that doesn't mean I look like them too.

If Jesus was white, he would have stood out, yet he didn't because Judas had to point him out for the guards, by betraying Jesus with a kiss.

As has been pointed out to you again and again and again, and as you have failed to respond to again and again and again: it was at night with no street lights. All cats are grey in the dark.

Still, what is most important is that we don't make an image out of who we worship.

No, what is important is that we don't worship images.

Heather, if you actually have a response to the valid counterarguments you have received, then please offer it. Alternatively, if you have no valid response, but are merely determined to have the last word, then maybe the rest of us should withdraw from the discussion so that you can hear yourself talk.

Regards,

Pahoran

Edited July 21, 2011 by Pahoran

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Heather, if you actually have a response to the valid counterarguments you have received, then please offer it. Alternatively, if you have no valid response, but are merely determined to have the last word, then maybe the rest of us should withdraw from the discussion so that you can hear yourself talk.

Regards,

Pahoran

Which is what I am doing. There is not a discussion here.

[TAO]

Tao,

You made a good point that the 2nd commandment's interpretation & application is not clearly discerned.

I'd say more people have actively worshiped someone they were in love with, or spent more time engaged with Media, more than with God, though they may not consider it "worship."

God is too abstract & too seemingly futuristic... so we try to compensate & resonate with what we are more familiar with.

It's understandable that we'd imagine Jesus to be what we're most familiar with, yet to make an image out of someone specifically for the enhancement of worship does go against the 2nd commandment. God didn't want worship to be limited to one type of person or thing, as it limits when images are created. God & love is found in ALL... & is internal not external.

My friend... I don't think it's against the second commandment though. =0. That is what I am asking you to show. I am asking you to show me that the law is referring to that. =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

[volgadon]

No one is saying there were not both dark and light skinned people in Israel at the time of Christ. I do not see your point.

If you do an image search of ancient greek statutes, guess what? They actually do look a lot like us today. So there were people who looked like us in that area of the world anciently.

Here is an image from a hellenized town (Tzippori) 3.7 miles away from Nazareth dated from near the time of Christ:

Obviously there were many kinds of people in the Middle East 2000 years ago. Jesus was descended from a people who would not marry outside their religion, which pretty much also meant outside their race. I believe the evidence is that Jesus was similar racially to his ancestors back to the time of the Patriarchs.

Richard

I disagree with your comments about there being no intermarriage, but thanks for posting the Mona Lisa, that saves me the time as I'm assembling a modest gallery of images from late antiquity which I'm sure Heather Ann will disregard.

[volgadon]

Mosaics from Sepphoris, which, as erichard has noted, was only several miles from Nazareth.

Note especially the figures from the synagogue mosaic.

http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/SepphorisMosaics.html

Mosaic of Abaraham from the Beit-Alpha synagogue in the Jezreel Valley.

http://www.richardmcbee.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=75&Itemid=10

Beit-Shean in the Jordan Valley.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/4947736-Travel_Picture-Tel_Bet_Shean.jpg

http://www.digital-picture-printing-frames.com/store/images/503072-med.jpg

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/History/Early+History+-+Archaeology/Beit+She-an+-+A+Biblical+City+and+Scythopolis+-+A.htm?DisplayMode=print

King David from the synagogue at Meroth in Northern Galilee.

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/civil/israel/images/dss721a.jpg

The burial caves at Tel Maresha in the Shephelah.

http://www.israelinphotos.com/gallery8-BeitGuvrinMaresha.htm

Edited July 22, 2011 by volgadon

[HeatherAnn]

Volgadon,

Thank you for posting those pictures, which remind me of the face of a typical man living in the time & area of Jesus, constructed through archeological forensics...

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus

I also wanted to let you know I feel for you & others who are bullied & that I do not think that prejudice pictures or scriptures are the same, although they could & probably have inspired the same.

Let me clarify... in accusing anyone of violating the 2nd commandment & in misportraying what Jesus likely looked like, I am guilty too.

A few years ago, I gave away framed pictures & magnets of a white Jesus for Christmas... I've often covered care packages with stickers of Jesus.

For FHEs, I used many pictures of Jesus & have regularly had my kids watch cartoon movies about Jesus.

It's become part of my life - habit... and tradition in the church - so much that to question it seems ridiculous (as pointed out in this thread).

Yet, over time, I realized, after witnessing & hearing about prejudice among church members, that we need to make some changes in better following the 2nd commandment & especially, the command to love God & others as ourselves. Change is hard, yet positive change involves lasting reward.

Edited July 22, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[volgadon]

Volgadon,

Thank you for posting those pictures, which remind me of the face of a typical man living in the time & area of Jesus, constructed through archeological forensics...

http://en.wikipedia....i/Race_of_Jesus

Possibly because you refuse to actually look at the diversity in the pictures I provided.

[volgadon]

If you look closely you will see that most of them do not depict broad, bovine features like the one on the 'flaky' (to quote Tom Wright) reconstruction.

[Pahoran]

Volgadon,

Thank you for posting those pictures, which remind me of the face of a typical man living in the time & area of Jesus, constructed through archeological forensics...

Snip the link you've posted at least five times per page.

Yes, in that a picture is a picture, no doubt seeing one picture can remind us of another. However, if you actually look at the pictures Volgadon posted, they actually call into question the (rather patronising, if not actually racist) assumptions behind the notion of a "typical" person of the time that others should be expected to resemble.

I also wanted to let you know I feel for you & others who are bullied & that I do not think that prejudice pictures or scriptures are the same, although they could & probably have inspired the same.

Let me clarify... in accusing anyone of violating the 2nd commandment & in misportraying what Jesus likely looked like, I am guilty too.

A few years ago, I gave away framed pictures & magnets of a white Jesus for Christmas... I've often covered care packages with stickers of Jesus.

For FHEs, I used many pictures of Jesus & have regularly had my kids watch cartoon movies about Jesus.

It's become part of my life - habit... and tradition in the church - so much that to question it seems ridiculous (as pointed out in this thread).

Yet, over time, I realized, after witnessing & hearing about prejudice among church members, that we need to make some changes in better following the 2nd commandment & especially, the command to love God & others as ourselves. Change is hard, yet positive change involves lasting reward.

Yes, loving others as ourselves a commandment probably all of us need some work on. But pictures of Jesus (unless they're actually worshipped) do not break the second commandment; that much has been established beyond question. And you've shown no plausible connection between pictures of Jesus and loving others, so maybe we need to look elsewhere to find opportunities for improvement. Maybe if we avoid judging others and accusing them of "racism" for no better reasons than something as absurdly weak as the fact that they like traditional pictures of Jesus, that might help.

Regards,

Pahoran

[thesometimesaint]

HeatherAnn:

Yet that same Moses decorated the Tabernacle in the wilderness with all types of images, and

Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem was likewise decorated. Jesus himself was in regular attendence at the Temple, as were all the original Apostles, and by extention many of his followers. Are you now accusing Moses AND Jesus AND the Apostles of idolitry?

When I see a picture of my parents I'm reminded of them as people, the times and events of our lives, the love we share for each other, even though both are beyond the vail now. But I do not worship their picture or them.

When I see a painting of my Lord and Savior. I am reminded of him and his great sacrifice for me. I don't worship the picture.

[volgadon]

Yes, in that a picture is a picture, no doubt seeing one picture can remind us of another. However, if you actually look at the pictures Volgadon posted, they actually call into question the (rather patronising, if not actually racist) assumptions behind the notion of a "typical" person of the time that others should be expected to resemble.

Precisely. It is almost as if Jesus HAS to look like that somewhat exaggerated stereotype since forensic specialists have ruled it so.

[volgadon]

Madaba in Jordan.

http://www.madaba.freeservers.com/

http://www.jordanexpert.com/html/madaba.htm

Jerash in Jordan.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/-h1L7IO_VOXM/TIUBoXTLH6I/AAAAAAAADZ4/kgSFKwO6fig/8-30-2010_006.JPG

http://yachtquovadis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/DSC_6003.jpg

Mount Nebo in Jordan.

This one is particularly relevant because it shows that the ancients could depict very dark skin, but also that it was rather rare.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/jordan/mount-nebo-photos/mosaic-floor2-cc-templar1307.jpg

The Jordan Archaeological Museum.

http://tour.weebly.com/museums.html

[Jeff K.]

I was in an interfaith meeting last night at the Newport Beach Stake Center. Our Stake, along with two others, were planning a food drive with three local mosques. The representatives for the mosques were from many different regions in the Middle East. The meeting was almost over and it was time for prayers, we had a cleared room that allowed them to begin prayers and the women took a tour of the Newport Beach Temple next door. In our stake center we have a number of paintings depicting Christ, all from different artists depicting different and distinct Christs often with features that reflect the Levant. With the discussion of these many posts on my mind I ventured an open question to one of the men that walked around with me. I asked him "What do you think of the paintings".

His reply was telling. He loved the paintings. He said he sometimes wished there weren't the constraints by their beliefs about imagery so that they could have such wonderful paintings too. I explained that we don't know what Christ looked like but we depict what we think is most majestic, humble and wise aspects when we imagine Jesus Christ. He smiled at that, and pointed out one painting (one of Christ stilling the waters) and said it looked a bit like his brother. I laughed and said he must have a most impressive family.

The interesting point is that here we have two different religions with different views. One whose beliefs are very strong at proscribing imagery. He saw nothing racist in the paintings, he even saw someone that looked like his brother. I took from that conversation an interesting point. Racism has nothing to do with painting the images. It is a red herring and is not reflected, at least not by the representatives of the three mosques here (Garden Grove, Irvine, Mission Viejo) and what they saw. My experience reflects a definate lack of any racial overtones, and those with a much stronger mandate against imagery or graven images, saw nothing racial. Like coffee (which I loved in my youth before becoming a member), the question is not one of a rationalization that somehow a painting is racist (or coffee inherently bad), it is simply a covenant we live by. Race is not the issue, and should not be rationalized as an issue. In short you can paint a picture and still live all the commandments including loving they neighbor.

So it really does come down to the interpretation of scripture and the position held by living apostles and prohets (as well as those who have passed before). We know Moses used engraven images as commanded by God, he who brought the commandments down did this and should know their full context better than any of us. We know that other images were used in the most sacred of places, the temple. We know modern prophets and apostles have approved of graven images such as paintings and statues, and have even commissioned them under inspiration. Finally we know of scriptures that specifically call for images of things.

We can only conclude then that the question in the commandment, fitting the context of the first set of commandments, dealt with worship and focus upon God. We do not worship the images, we have them as a reflection of our talents and love for Christ, they have never been a substitute.

It was a good meeting, and we continue to work together in different projects for the area.

[Sleeper Cell]

I believe that the spirit giveth light to every man... that deep within, we know what brings us closer to God & what pulls us away.

We know that as we judge others, we'll be judged.

We know that as we define others, we define ourselves, since we are all children of God.

That's true - the light or spirit within can let us know when someone is misleading us.

The best method Jesus taught of shedding light on what is right or wrong are the 2 greatest commandments... to love God & to love others as ourselves.

If someone leads us to regard & treat others differently from ourselves, they clearly are leading us away from God.

[Emphasis added]

Since “darkness“ is the opposite of “light,” isn’t your use of the word “light” actually a racist expression?

How is equating the “spirit within” with “light” (as opposed to darkness) any less “racist” than a painting depicting a “white Jesus?”

As you say: “as we are judge others, we’ll be judged … as we define others, we define ourselves.”

[HeatherAnn]

Jeff,

That's great that you're involved in serving with other religious groups.

I can't help but wonder if the man was being polite, as you were also, probably to keep a good working relationship.

Although he hinted at his beliefs, why would he want to tell you what he really believed about portraying images for worship & start an argument & risk disrespecting your beliefs?

Madaba in Jordan.

http://www.madaba.freeservers.com/

http://www.jordanexp...html/madaba.htm

Jerash in Jordan.

http://lh6.ggpht.com...30-2010_006.JPG

http://yachtquovadis...07/DSC_6003.jpg

Mount Nebo in Jordan.

This one is particularly relevant because it shows that the ancients could depict very dark skin, but also that it was rather rare.

http://www.sacred-de...templar1307.jpg

The Jordan Archaeological Museum.

http://tour.weebly.com/museums.html

Volgadon,

Those pictures are great! Thanks, again!

Those images were created hundreds of years after Jesus, but they do show a more accurate image with dark hair & tan skin & shorter hair, than most modern images of Jesus.

I'm amazed that despite this evidence as well as anthropologic forensic evidence that Jesus was darker than portrayed in many pictures, some still argue it!

Why? Is it that difficult to imagine someone you love & loved you, as being different from you?

Christianity took hold & grew most in Europe, which is why Jesus is portrayed in the image of primarily white Europeans. Probably they used white models from their area.

Why do you think we have no graven images of Jesus during his life? Maybe because of that little commandment to not make graven images for worship, including portraying Jesus who we worship. (Exodus 20:4-6)

Images of Jesus are more of an art history lesson, reflecting how people make God into whatever image they wanted.

Some have even made Jesus with a mullet hair style...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3958241.stm

Notice how images of Jesus have changed over time...

http://www.religionf...age_gallery.htm

Do you think Jesus posed & said, "Please make a graven image out of me - it's so important for you to focus on that & not the kingdom of God within."

Of course not! His teachings reflect the opposite.(Luke 17:21) I understand why you ignore this - it's tradition. Many of us were read stories or sung songs with pictures of a white Jesus & grew up with images of Jesus, so we pass along that tradition to our kids, without much thought. Yet, it's time to rethink this... to put ourselves in the unique shoes of our brothers and sisters with darker complexion. Let's not do anything that would contribute to teaching one race is better than another. We are all children of God. And God is not found in a painting, or image, but within our souls, as Jesus taught.

Edited July 22, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

That's great that you're involved in serving with other religious groups.

I can't help but wonder if the man was being polite, as you were also, probably to keep a good working relationship.

Although he hinted at his beliefs, why would he want to tell you what he really believed about portraying images for worship & start an argument & risk disrespecting your beliefs?

That is a valid question and without further context a good observation. Just so you know, the individual and I are friends and I have frequented his mosque and we have enjoyed each others company in more than one Ramadan. We have had other discussions regarding Islam. This is his first time in the Newport Beach Stake Center (we have met before in other buildings), which has many depictions of Christ. He and I have a relationship that is open and honest in regards to discussing such things because we respect each others positions. He was being polite, but he was also being honest.

[Jeff K.]

Although he hinted at his beliefs, why would he want to tell you what he really believed about portraying images for worship & start an argument & risk disrespecting your beliefs?

I think this is telling. We have repeated the assertion, not only I but nearly everyone else who has responded, that paintings are not the equivalent of worship. You seem to continually miss that fact. I suggest you rethink your position since worship is not what anyone here does with paintings, while you are the only person to assert that it is what everyone is doing. Why is it you cannot take anyone's word for it but your own? Do you see how offensive your remark is?

[HeatherAnn]

I think this is telling. We have repeated the assertion, not only I but nearly everyone else who has responded, that paintings are not the equivalent of worship. You seem to continually miss that fact. I suggest you rethink your position since worship is not what anyone here does with paintings, while you are the only person to assert that it is what everyone is doing. Why is it you cannot take anyone's word for it but your own? Do you see how offensive your remark is?

I realize we don't pray to paintings of Jesus. I have not missed that, you just ignored my statements.

We worship Jesus & made paintings of Jesus to enhance our worship in churches, temples & homes. This clearly goes against the 2nd commandment, despite tradition.

If you want to know offensive remarks, try reading several racially prejudice scriptures in the Book of Mormon.

Or read this quote by Brigham Young, our 2nd prophet of the church...

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. "

- (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859)

[Jeff K.]

I realize we don't pray to paintings of Jesus. I have not missed that, you just ignored my statements.

We worship Jesus & made paintings of Jesus to enhance our worship in churches, temples & homes. This clearly goes against the 2nd commandment, despite tradition.

I suppose when we watch TV we are worshipping what we see. When we admire a comic books art, we are worshipping it because it enhances our experience to the story. Your position simply does not hold water, neither logically nor spiritually. When I go through the temple, do I worship the film or do I focus on the the story behind it? When I read the words in the bible and it creates images in my mind, do I worship the images in my mind, or do I understand the deeper meaning? You seem to think that imagery alone is worship, it is not, no more than we worship symbols. Both imagery and symbols act as a short hand to bring up to the meaning that exists. When I look at the painting of Christ stilling the waters, I do not worship the painting, but think of the meaning of what was done, and Peter's test of faith at that time, and how the storm represents the times we now live, and the symbolism that exists within the painting. It is amazing how you can overlook that and presume all that is left is worship of an object. Such shows the limiting scope you have regarding what Christ wishes from us and what worship truly is.

I find it amazing that you reflect such ignorance as to the true nature of worship, and greater ignorance as to what symbolism is, and how it is carried in paintings, and all manner of things.

If you want to know offensive remarks, try reading several racially prejudice scriptures in the Book of Mormon.

Or read this quote by Brigham Young, our 2nd prophet of the church...

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. "

I thnk your position is both petty and without a moral basis, it would be rejected by Christ as he called you to repentance. Consider that the basis of your argument against this statement:

I think this is telling. We have repeated the assertion, not only I but nearly everyone else who has responded, that paintings are not the equivalent of worship. You seem to continually miss that fact. I suggest you rethink your position since worship is not what anyone here does with paintings, while you are the only person to assert that it is what everyone is doing. Why is it you cannot take anyone's word for it but your own? Do you see how offensive your remark is?

And merely deflect it with a non sequitur statement by prophet of a different time and generation. You are saying "Well he said something offensive" and use it as an excuse in order to justify you being offensive? You seem to talk a great deal about the love and light of Christ when it suits you, but your post is as base and frankly childish as any that is placed on this board. "I do it because someone else did" is something no one should use as justification for their own actions.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Jeff K.

[HeatherAnn]

I suppose when we watch TV we are worshipping what we see. When we admire a comic books art, we are worshipping it because it enhances our experience to the story. Your position simply does not hold water, neither logically nor spiritually. When I go through the temple, do I worship the film or do I focus on the the story behind it? When I read the words in the bible and it creates images in my mind, do I worship the images in my mind, or do I understand the deeper meaning? You seem to think that imagery alone is worship, it is not, no more than we worship symbols. Both imagery and symbols act as a short hand to bring up to the meaning that exists. When I look at the painting of Christ stilling the waters, I do not worship the painting, but think of the meaning of what was done, and Peter's test of faith at that time, and how the storm represents the times we now live, and the symbolism that exists within the painting. It is amazing how you can overlook that and presume all that is left is worship of an object. Such shows the limiting scope you have regarding what Christ wishes from us and what worship truly is.

I find it amazing that you reflect such ignorance as to the true nature of worship, and greater ignorance as to what symbolism is, and how it is carried in paintings, and all manner of things.

It seems you still don't understand.

Ok... let me explain it again, as Jesus & Moses (or God) did.

The kingdom of God is within us, it doesn't come with observation, nor should we focus externally for what only comes within.

Yes, sometimes people use TV, internet, church activity, alcohol - & many other attempts to substitute for the spirit we all yearn for within.

It's great to get inspiration from symbols, but we are specifically commanded not to create images of God or Jesus or anyone else we worship.

Whether Jesus is portrayed, White, Chinese, Black or Blue... it is limiting Christ-like love to one race, when in reality, it is ALL races.

For this reason, as well as the fact that the kingdom of God is within... God commanded us to not make engraven images for any worshiping purpose.

I hope you understand now.

I thnk your position is both petty and without a moral basis, it would be rejected by Christ as he called you to repentance.

If you think what Jesus, Moses & God said is petty & without moral basis, then maybe so... Christ calls everyone to repentence.

Repentence is correcting one's thinking (including prejudice beliefs) which corrects feelings & behavior.

As mentioned, some take the truth to be hard.

And merely deflect it with a non sequitur statement by prophet of a different time and generation.

Hmm... Jeff... you contradict yourself as you say Brigham Young was a "prophet of a different time & generation" & then "It seems the words hold true over 140 years later"...& go on to praise him as one who would have done well politically in the US.

Delivered at the tabernacle April 7, 1869

It seems the words hold tru over 140 years later.

In a contemplative moment, I was wondering if anyone would speculate, given this discourse (and you can read more in the link), how Brigam Young would view todays political spectrum, the way in which the Saints are more a part of society than isolated. The political place of many Saints, the political questions. I see Brigham Young as a great man, indeed had he remained in New England, I do not doubt he would have gained great political power in the US, or remained obscure, meaning the environment makes the leader versus the leader the environment. Who knows.

I guess what I am looking for are some interesting imagined quotes, given the context of the discourse, and perhaps some idea of who the contemporary apostles and prophets (including recent ones who have passed away) who might have been of the Brigham Young mold.

Purely speculative, though I think some references to his discourses might help bolster an imagined quote or two.

Still, its amazing how contemporary old policies can be.

You are saying "Well he said something offensive" and use it as an excuse in order to justify you being offensive? You seem to talk a great deal about the love and light of Christ when it suits you, but your post is as base and frankly childish as any that is placed on this board. "I do it because someone else did" is something no one should use as justification for their own actions.

Sometimes the truth is offensive. I don't believe I've said anyting untrue. If I have, please point the exact quote.

On the contrary, I've often prayed before posting so I can post with love & inspiration & I admited to my own problems with this.

Jeff, you come across as someone who does not embrace lds prejudice teachings as you relate with others different from you.

My comments are for those who struggle more with this... especially church leaders who continue to support racial prejudice in various ways.

Do you frequently call people or their comments names, when you argue with them & accuse them of what you are doing?

Please clarify what you meant by "I do it because someone else did." It just came out of the blue. Anyway, I agree, that is not justification for one's actions.

Edited July 23, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[volgadon]

Whether Jesus is portrayed, White, Chinese, Black or Blue... it is limiting Christ-like love to one race, when in reality, it is ALL races.

Why is it limiting love? There are some Ethiopic icons of Christ I really like, I've never felt that the picture is saying that Christ-like love is withheld from me because I have Slavic features.

And yes, blue men can sing the whites.

Sometimes the truth is offensive.

So are half-truths and baseless accusations. Like Pahoran said, you can't judge merely from the reaction.

Volgadon,

Those pictures are great! Thanks, again!

Those images were created hundreds of years after Jesus, but they do show a more accurate image with dark hair & tan skin & shorter hair, than most modern images of Jesus.

Are we looking at the same pictures? The majority are only a shade or so darker than most Europeans, and the features aren't that far-off either.

I'm amazed that despite this evidence as well as anthropologic forensic evidence that Jesus was darker than portrayed in many pictures, some still argue it!

Why? Is it that difficult to imagine someone you love & loved you, as being different from you?

Not as amazed as I am that you are arguing the same-old same-old despite evidence to the contrary. Sometimes I have to wonder if the links don't show up absolutely, entirely differently on your screen than they do on mine.

Christianity took hold & grew most in Europe, which is why Jesus is portrayed in the image of primarily white Europeans. Probably they used white models from their area.

A lot of portrayals of Jesus were drawn off of Jews, such as Rembrandt's work. I think you are being overly and overtly simplistic.

Why do you think we have no graven images of Jesus during his life? Maybe because of that little commandment to not make graven images for worship, including portraying Jesus who we worship. (Exodus 20:4-6)

More likely that people rarely sat for portraits in that era, pagan or Jew. Egyptians did, but that was for coffin art.

[volgadon]

Also, are you going to respond to the evidence provided by the Mt. Nebo mosaic? It shows that the mosaic artists did know the difference between lighter and darker skin and were certainly capable of depicting it.

[Jeff K.]

It seems you still don't understand.

Ok... let me explain it again, as Jesus & Moses (or God) did.

The kingdom of God is within us, it doesn't come with observation, nor should we focus externally for what only comes within.

Yes, sometimes people use TV, internet, church activity, alcohol - & many other attempts to substitute for the spirit we all yearn for within.

It's great to get inspiration from symbols, but we are specifically commanded not to create images of God or Jesus or anyone else we worship.

Whether Jesus is portrayed, White, Chinese, Black or Blue... it is limiting Christ-like love to one race, when in reality, it is ALL races.

For this reason, as well as the fact that the kingdom of God is within... God commanded us to not make engraven images for any worshiping purpose.

I hope you understand now.

It appears you supply the limits to Christ's love. I do not. I see paintings as symbols of Christ's parables, of his life, I do not see them as artifacts to be worshipped. This is something unique to your heart, and your own limited standards and has nothing to do with true worship. It seems you have chosen God's limits, not I.

It also appears you have chosen to ignore God's scriptures for your own limited sense of God, and your own limited ability to worship. Try not to compartmentalize others within the limits you have set for yourself. Member or not, your gospel hobby seems to separate you from God, it places you in judgement of others and leaves you with nothing more than non sequitur arguments that have no relavence to the worship of God.

If you think what Jesus, Moses & God said is petty & without moral basis, then maybe so... Christ calls everyone to repentence.

Repentence is correcting one's thinking (including prejudice beliefs) which corrects feelings & behavior.

As mentioned, some take the truth to be hard.

As I stated before, you bring in non sequitur arguments. Jesus, Moses, and God both commanded images to be made. An issue you still have not spoken to in regard to scriptures.

Hmm... Jeff... you contradict yourself as you say Brigham Young was a "prophet of a different time & generation" & then "It seems the words hold true over 140 years later"...& go on to praise him as one who would have done well politically in the US.

No, I don't have time to go into the context and actions of history and a prophet whose quote is taken out of context with his actions. You will note that Utah, under Brigham Young passed an amendment giving African Americans the vote before the US passed such an amendment. It speaks to your ignorance of history that you seem to take one quote and build and entirely different universe out of the facts. History is complicated, your approach to history and its quotes is both simplistic and to a certain extent immoral. Something a follower of Christ would avoid.

Sometimes the truth is offensive. I don't believe I've said anyti[qng untrue. If I have, please point the exact quote.

On the contrary, I've often prayed before posting so I can post with love & inspiration & I admited to my own problems with this.

Jeff, you come across as someone who does not embrace lds prejudice teachings as you relate with others different from you.

My comments are for those who struggle more with this... especially church leaders who continue to support racial prejudice in various ways.

I would suggest you learn more before you begin attempting to make some sort of prejudicial remark. I dare say the philosophy you profess to follow offers more racist history and background than you care to think about. I at least make the attempt to learn the entire context of a historical time. What plays into it, why things are said, and what the varying results are, the true actions which reveal real intent. You don't look at that, and in that sense you harbor more racial prejudice, and more ignorance regarding what racial prejudice is than most. Because it resides in a blind spot you are to fearful to review, and such is reflected in your shallow understanding of history. So you make claims and judgments while rejecting Christ, or rather by putting yourself in Christ's place. I find such action abhorrent to say the least. To you Christ like love is merely a word used to cover up what is in truth a judgemental and spiteful position in regard to those who are not like you. It is important to realize that you have made wrong rationalizations, made egregious charges, and have yet to provide anything more than your own self centered judgements. It is something Christ would reject.

[Jeff K.]

Do you frequently call people or their comments names, when you argue with them & accuse them of what you are doing?

Please clarify what you meant by "I do it because someone else did." It just came out of the blue. Anyway, I agree, that is not justification for one's actions.

If you want to know offensive remarks, try reading several racially prejudice scriptures in the Book of Mormon.

Or read this quote by Brigham Young, our 2nd prophet of the church...

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. "

I thnk your position is both petty and without a moral basis, it would be rejected by Christ as he called you to repentance. Consider that the basis of your argument against this statement:

I think this is telling. We have repeated the assertion, not only I but nearly everyone else who has responded, that paintings are not the equivalent of worship. You seem to continually miss that fact. I suggest you rethink your position since worship is not what anyone here does with paintings, while you are the only person to assert that it is what everyone is doing. Why is it you cannot take anyone's word for it but your own? Do you see how offensive your remark is?

And merely deflect it with a non sequitur statement by prophet of a different time and generation. You are saying "Well he said something offensive" and use it as an excuse in order to justify you being offensive? You seem to talk a great deal about the love and light of Christ when it suits you, but your post is as base and frankly childish as any that is placed on this board. "I do it because someone else did" is something no one should use as justification for their own actions.

I cannot think how I could be more direct than the statements made.

[HeatherAnn]

Volgadon,

Thanks for the laugh... Somethin's up with your screen! Ha ha

Jeff,

Please provide exactly where Jesus instructed us to make graven images of him.

One more thing...

Sorry for arguing back with you...I've been feeling bad about it all night.