Progression

[inquiringmind]

Is heavenly Father still progressing?

Did JS ever say anything about the Son moving up to the Father's exaultation, and the Father moving up to a higher exaultation, when the rest of us are exaulted?

( seem to recall that, but I can't remember where, and I'm not sure if it was JS or BY.)

Also, I recall a passage (from the book of Abraham, I think), that talks about the head of the Gods appointing a God for this world.

Would that be heavenly Father appointing the Son as His rep., or heavenly Father's God appointing Him as our God?

[Questing Beast]

I'm pretty sure that if you ever find a Joseph Smith quotation asserting that God the Father is still "progressing", it will be considered not doctrine. Explaining the existence of such an assertion from Joseph Smith will be in the nature of, "The scribe did not get it right; Joseph Smith did not mean that."

The actual doctrine is that God the Father knows everything, is all powerful and his influence (Spirit) is everywhere. The only "increase" God the Father is eternally experiencing is increased "glory"; in other words, infinite worlds of spirit children all progressing to the CK and their exaltation, etc.

Jesus Christ knows all that the Father knows. He knew it before this world was formed and he became a mortal. His mind was blanked because of "the veil" just like all mortals. But everything he needed to know/remember to work out the atonement he remembered. Once resurrected he took his rightful and previous place "at the right hand of the Father". They are "One", in knowledge, power, glory, etc.

The Lectures on Faith (no longer "canon") make it clear that to have faith in a god that god must know everything, be all powerful and present everywhere. Asserting that God the Father is still learning is a lesser concept than this, so is not a concept that one can have sufficient faith in to obtain salvation....

[inquiringmind]

Then our God was always God, there's no heavenly Grandfather, and there was no God before God?

Is that right?

[inquiringmind]

Double Post (deleted.)

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[TAO]

Is heavenly Father still progressing?

Yep.

Did JS ever say anything about the Son moving up to the Father's exaultation, and the Father moving up to a higher exaultation, when the rest of us are exaulted?

Not sure. I think so. Not sure if it's doctrinal yet.

Also, I recall a passage (from the book of Abraham, I think), that talks about the head of the Gods appointing a God for this world.

I don't know. Remind me of the verse =).

Would that be heavenly Father appointing the Son as His rep., or heavenly Father's God appointing Him as our God?

No idea, sorry =P. I think the first is correct, not sure about the second though, I shouldn't be making opinions though, srryz.

[inquiringmind]

I don't know. Remind me of the verse

I don't know the verse.

It's something I recall reading somewhere, and as I just finished re-reading the King Follet sermon (and it doesn't seem to be there), I thought it might be the Book of Abraham.

Can anyone help me out?

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Actually, I only skim-read the King Follet Sermon, and I missed this.

"I saw the Father work out His kingdom with fear and trembling and I am doing the same, too. When I get my kingdom, I will give it to the Father and it will add to and exalt His glory. He will take a higher exaltation and I will take His place and also be exalted, so that He obtains kingdom rolling upon Kingdom."

http://ldsunity.com/...talk-about-god/

And this.

In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through–Gods. The head of the Gods appointed one God for us;

http://ldsunity.com/...talk-about-god/

Would the head of the Gods be heavenly Father, and the God appointed for us be Christ; or would it be Heavenly Grandfather, and the God appointed for us be heavenly Father?

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

Critics like to throw a fit about this, but the "God having a god, who has a god, who has a god, who has a god, ad infinitum" is not doctrine, but is nevertheless believed by many Latter-day Saints. I don't know if I believe it or not. I also know nothing about Heavenly Father being "appointed" to be the God of this earth. It might be talking about Jesus Christ as the one who was "appointed," but Christ is the Savior of all other worlds as well, and the head of the gods, the God of gods, is God the Father. But either way, whatever Joseph Smith meant is up to you to decide, since it must be remembered that parts of the King Follett discourse were not recorded, and I'm still trying to figure out how Joseph fit these ideas together, since he obviously believed the Book of Mormon and the Bible and their statements of God being eternal.

Regardless, the Church holds no position on this issue. Members are free to believe as they wish. Information regarding this will, however, certainly be given to us in the future. The only thing I can do with certainty is to echo everything that Questing Beast said, that the Father and the Son are increasing in glory. They are already all-knowing and all-powerful, and the amount of what they know and can do is too far beyond our understanding to even discuss without speculating.

Edited July 1, 2011 by altersteve

[inquiringmind]

I'm still trying to figure out how Joseph fit these ideas together, since he obviously believed the Book of Mormon and the Bible and their statements of God being eternal.

Technically, didn't he believe we're all eternal (without beginning or end, and that that which has a beginning must have an end)?

And as far as heavenly Father being the head of the Gods, and the God of Gods, did Brigham Young believe that too?

Edited July 1, 2011 by inquiringmind

[TAO]

Inquiring mind, altersteve is right =). I like his post.

Yeah, eternal, some parts of us. And yeah, I believe Brigham did. Not sure though, but I believe he did.

[Storm Rider]

Is heavenly Father still progressing?

Did JS ever say anything about the Son moving up to the Father's exaultation, and the Father moving up to a higher exaultation, when the rest of us are exaulted?

( seem to recall that, but I can't remember where, and I'm not sure if it was JS or BY.)

Also, I recall a passage (from the book of Abraham, I think), that talks about the head of the Gods appointing a God for this world.

Would that be heavenly Father appointing the Son as His rep., or heavenly Father's God appointing Him as our God?

1) Still progressing: No, that is false doctrine. McConkie stated, "Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths. This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression. God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

2) ditto

3) Verse?

4) God is/was always God. Just as Jesus was always the Son of God, member of the Godhead, God, which did not negate his coming to earth, nor did it negate God the Father from doing so.

[awh204]

Is heavenly Father still progressing?

Though I doubt it is part of official church doctrine, people have divergent opinions. Woodruff said: "If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us. We are in a probation, which is a school of experience" (JD 6:120) whereas McConkie, as evidenced from Storm Rider's post, thinks differently.

Did JS ever say anything about the Son moving up to the Father's exaultation, and the Father moving up to a higher exaultation, when the rest of us are exaulted?

Well, the Book of Revelation talks of Jesus taking his Father's throne (Revelation 3:21).

Also, I recall a passage (from the book of Abraham, I think), that talks about the head of the Gods appointing a God for this world.

That comes from JS's sermon on the plurality of gods: "In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through—Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth."

[awh204]

Though I doubt it is part of official church doctrine, people have divergent opinions. Woodruff said: "If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us. We are in a probation, which is a school of experience" (JD 6:120) whereas McConkie, as evidenced from Storm Rider's post, thinks differently.

Just to further:

"Some men seem as if they could learn so much and no more. They appear to be bounded in their capacity for acquiring knowledge, as Brother Orson Pratt, has in theory, bounded the capacity of God. According to his theory, God can progress no further in knowledge and power; but the God that I serve is progressing eternally, and so are his children: they will increase to all eternity, if they are faithful." ~ Brigham Young (JD 11:286)

[Deborah]

When you have contradictory statements from leaders of the church it simply means we don't know. It hasn't been revealed and everyone is expressing an opinion based on his own study and interpretation. I would love to see how Joseph Smith worked all this out had he lived longer because he too was learning and expanding his understanding little by little. I see nothing wrong in this as God gave us minds to do such things and perhaps we come close to the truth at times and perhaps it is something so beyond our comprehension that we can't possibly comprehend it in mortality. We have the basics for salvation and all understanding after that is frosting on the cake and what makes the mysteries so fun to explore.

[Questing Beast]

Then our God was always God, there's no heavenly Grandfather, and there was no God before God?

Is that right?

Yes. And no. Every possibility is realized in its own eventual reality. That realities, "ends", are separated from every other possible outcome should not be any mystery; since only in the infinite mind of "God" do all outcomes exist NOW. Space-time is for separating and lining up all things momently. Without space-time all things - even their alternate outcomes - would occur NOW.

So the "only God with which we have to do" (paraphrasing in part B. Young) is known to some as "God the Father". "The Word" is the "God of this world", in the Creator sense; and that includes the entire perceivable universe. "The Word" is the "Son" of God the Father. Some believe, or conceive, that we are siblings to "the Word"; others believe that the Word IS God in another manifested form, ergo we are not siblings but creations only. Pointing this difference of opinion/doctrine out only illustrates the plethora of opinions/doctrines.

The more expansive concept allows for them all to be valid. It doesn't matter. Each person seeks after "God" however they can moment by moment. "Mormon today, agnostic tomorrow, religion-maker after that?" God alone knows the outcome. And what is the world like, where Joseph Smith never lived beyond his leg operation?...

[CV75]

Is heavenly Father still progressing?

Did JS ever say anything about the Son moving up to the Father's exaultation, and the Father moving up to a higher exaultation, when the rest of us are exaulted?

( seem to recall that, but I can't remember where, and I'm not sure if it was JS or BY.)

Also, I recall a passage (from the book of Abraham, I think), that talks about the head of the Gods appointing a God for this world.

Would that be heavenly Father appointing the Son as His rep., or heavenly Father's God appointing Him as our God?

He progresses in that He never stops existing and never does backward, but expands His influence over other co-eternal intelligences that are also progressing in the path to becoming like Him and one with Him. The nature of His existence is to eternally extend His blessings to others so that they become gods and they follow after Him in doing the same. His exaltation expands or increases as more gods join Him in their exaltation, and in this way He advances from one exaltation to another.

[Deborah]

From the King Follett Discourse:

It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and h*** together to refute it.

This is how Joseph reasoned thus:

These are the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourners, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that, although the earthly tabernacle is laid down and dissolved, they shall rise again, to dwell in everlasting burnings in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more; but they shall be heirs of God and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? To inherit the same power, the same glory, and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of a God and ascend the throne of eternal power, the same as those who have gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the track of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children. It is plain beyond disputation; and you thus learn some of the first principles of the Gospel, about which so much hath been said.

Now let me put it in more earthly terms. As a parent I loved my children more than life itself. I sacrificed for them I did all that I knew how to do to help them become responsible adults. But when I had grandchildren the joy I felt was overwhelming. I could not imagine I could love anything more. And when I have great-grandchildren...? Yesterday as I visited my son and my little two year old granddaughter came running up to me I was awash in love and joy for this little person. I stayed with her while the parents went out. And as much fun as she had with me when Mom and Dad came home she ran to the door and they were her world again.

Now let's substitute the word glory for joy. Suppose that when God speaks of glory being added upon he is speaking of this joy that I only feel in a small way toward my own posterity. Is this not the greatest progression to expand love and joy so that it fills the universe?