Lds Church Issues New Statement Re: Immigration

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

Your sophistry is your construction that individual states have any authority over Federal law. They don't.

Immigration is a Federal issue period. The supremecy clause of the US Constitution gives the Feds that exclusive power. Also SB1070 runs counter to the 14th Amendment.

[ELF1024]

Lehi:

Your sophistry is your construction that individual states have any authority over Federal law. They don't.

Immigration is a Federal issue period. The supremacy clause of the US Constitution gives the Feds that exclusive power. Also SB1070 runs counter to the 14th Amendment.

It will be interesting to see how the Supreme Court rules.

[LeSellers]

Your sophistry is your construction that individual states have any authority over Federal law. They don't.

Immigration is a Federal issue period. The supremecy clause of the US Constitution gives the Feds that exclusive power. Also SB1070 runs counter to the 14th Amendment.

It will be interesting to see how the Supreme Court rules.

To TSS's first point: I have never said or implied that any state can supercede federal laws. What I have repeatedly said, and which you, tss, have totally ignored, i that SB1070 does not do that in any way, and that the states, by the Constitution, have the power to repel invasions and to protect themselves in the face of imminent danger. This is all Arizona is doing.

Arizona has not interferred in any way with immigration. There is nothing in SB1070 that talks about the standards for immigrants. It does nothing beyond implementing the federal law. It does not even send Arizona police officers out looking for illegal immigrants. All it does is require them to, when they have probable cause to do so, inquire about their immigration status. Which, by their oaths of office, they are pledged to do.

How the XIV fits into this, I cannot fathom. Illegal aliens are not citizens. They have no inherent right to be here at all. They are breaking the law by their presence, even if by nothing else (which is not a given).

It will indeed be interesting to see what the supremes will do.

Lehi

Edited June 24, 2011 by LeSellers

[LeSellers]

Your sophistry is your construction that individual states have any authority over Federal law. They don't.

Oh, and ...

It isn't federal law that SB1070 addresses at all. It's that lack of federal law enforcement that Arizona had to overcome.

We should not forget, either, that Arizona is being sued for enforcing federal law.

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

Reading over posts in this thread, I admire & respect those who have compassion along with reason.

Not an easy balance, but it's what Jesus taught.

I don't agree that it is all scape-goat-ing. There is an amount of money that does go out to assist them, in particular health care dollars. Employed, unemployed, legal or illegal your gonna need healthcare at some point, even if it's just to have a baby delivered.

I'm sure at some level it may be scape-goat-ing but I'm not sure where addressing the issue, and just blaming them for problems ends.

The current unemployment rate isn't (all) the illegals fault. Maybe a percentage point or two at most, but NOT all of it. I think the E-Verify laws will fix that issue.

Yes, some illegal immigrants do pay taxes, by using a false SSN. Which is a kind of identity theft. All of a sudden the IRS has an extra w-2 for you that you didn't know you had. How many man hours does that cost to work out? Does it cost more than it brings in? I don't know the answer to those questions.

It's not a problem that has an easy fix; and I don't believe that we as American's can fix the problem entirely. It has to be addressed from the country of origin, and not just our side.

ELF,

I appreciate & respect that how you're being flexible in your perspective, seeing different sides of this issue.

I was thinking more about your paranoia... which may be very real after going to the middle east.

The terrorists that killed many Americans (9-11-01).. were all LEGALLY here, right?

[Bob Crockett]

If you had phrased it as follows, I would agree with you.

We are a nation of LEGAL immigrants, built by LEGAL immigrants, for the express purpose of adding the talents and abilities of LEGAL immigrants to our betterment as a nation.

And if you care to make an argument about us being Illegal, and the Indian's having the right to kick us off the Continent, that's fine, but it makes the point that the Indian's also had lousy immigration policy, and look what it got them.

For many of us that isn't a constructive way of addressing the immigration issue, what is legal and what is not.

President Reagan saw the conflict, morals and policies of immigration and granted 3 million people, otherwise "illegal", amnesty.

The Church's position doesn't rely upon such artificial distinctions. Nor does Christianity.

[Xander]

We should not forget, either, that Arizona is being sued for enforcing federal law.

That is not why it is being sued. If you insist on watching FOX News, I suggest you listen to their Judge Nepolitano who admitted that what Arizona tried to do was unconstitutional.

Yes, some illegal immigrants do pay taxes, by using a false SSN. Which is a kind of identity theft.

Not true. All undocumented workers pay taxes, period. Whether they obtain a SSN card or not, they pay taxes. And while most pay into Social Security, none of them will ever be able to reap those benefits. The great myth is that these folks leech off the system without putting anything back in. In many cases, they put more in than they receive back.

Undocumented workers making less than minimum wage while doing laundry at the Holiday Inn, is why I spent less on my trip to Florida this past week. Their willingness to work in the fields, doing jobs no Americans want, is also why I can get a head of lettuce for under a dollar, a pound of strawberries for less than $5.

The point is, their existence in this country translates to further savings by every citizen who spends money on basic necessities and services. But some folks don't see it like that. Instead, they follow these myths about how these folks are "illegals" who have "anchor babies" and drain our economy. Virtually every academic study has revealed different results. In many areas they provide a boost to the economy.

And contrary to many Right Wing myths, they are not eligible for food stamps or welfare. So that means while millions of "legal" citizens take advantage of such programs, the "illegals" find ways to adapt and overcome. They are in fact some of the most resourceful people on the planet, and we would all do well to learn to respect them like human beings they are instead of treating them all like "criminals."

Edited June 26, 2011 by Xander

[ELF1024]

For many of us that isn't a constructive way of addressing the immigration issue, what is legal and what is not.

President Reagan saw the conflict, morals and policies of immigration and granted 3 million people, otherwise "illegal", amnesty.

The Church's position doesn't rely upon such artificial distinctions. Nor does Christianity.

Artificial?????

I do not agree that being here legally is artificial.

Refer yourself to the articles of faith. We are honor bound to respect the law. Being here illegally is not doing so.

[ELF1024]

That is not why it is being sued. If you insist on watching FOX News, I suggest you listen to their Judge Nepolitano who admitted that what Arizona tried to do was unconstitutional.

Not true. All undocumented workers pay taxes, period. Whether they obtain a SSN card or not, they pay taxes. And while most pay into Social Security, none of them will ever be able to reap those benefits. The great myth is that these folks leech off the system without putting anything back in. In many cases, they put more in than they receive back.

Undocumented workers making less than minimum wage while doing laundry at the Holiday Inn, is why I spent less on my trip to Florida this past week. Their willingness to work in the fields, doing jobs no Americans want, is also why I can get a head of lettuce for under a dollar, a pound of strawberries for less than $5.

The point is, their existence in this country translates to further savings by every citizen who spends money on basic necessities and services. But some folks don't see it like that. Instead, they follow these myths about how these folks are "illegals" who have "anchor babies" and drain our economy. Virtually every academic study has revealed different results. In many areas they provide a boost to the economy.

And contrary to many Right Wing myths, they are not eligible for food stamps or welfare. So that means while millions of "legal" citizens take advantage of such programs, the "illegals" find ways to adapt and overcome. They are in fact some of the most resourceful people on the planet, and we would all do well to learn to respect them like human beings they are instead of treating them all like "criminals."

Illegal = breaking the law = criminal

Next!!!!

[Bob Crockett]

Artificial?????

I do not agree that being here legally is artificial.

Refer yourself to the articles of faith. We are honor bound to respect the law. Being here illegally is not doing so.

I think I am pretty familiar with the Articles of Faith as are most who post here.

I think the better question is one of practicality. What do you propose be done -- Churchwise? Should the Church change its position on immigration?

Do you intend to refuse to sustain the calling of a high councilor who is not legal (which calling has happened in my stake)?

Do you intend to report to immigration authorities your fellow members of the Church who are illegal?

I mean, aren't your posts really contrary to the spirit of the Brethren?

[ELF1024]

I think I am pretty familiar with the Articles of Faith as are most who post here.

I think the better question is one of practicality. What do you propose be done -- Churchwise? Should the Church change its position on immigration?

Do you intend to refuse to sustain the calling of a high councilor who is not legal (which calling has happened in my stake)?

Do you intend to report to immigration authorities your fellow members of the Church who are illegal?

I mean, aren't your posts really contrary to the spirit of the Brethren?

I don't work for ICE, nor do I make it a habit of asking peoples immigration status.

We do have a large number of LDS border patrol agents in the stake.

However, no I could not in good conscience sustain a local church leader I knew to be breaking the law. And no, I would not.

You either obey the law or you don't.

Edited June 26, 2011 by ELF1024

[ELF1024]

Undocumented workers making less than minimum wage while doing laundry at the Holiday Inn, is why I spent less on my trip to Florida this past week. Their willingness to work in the fields, doing jobs no Americans want, is also why I can get a head of lettuce for under a dollar, a pound of strawberries for less than $5.

There is no shame in honest work. There is no job an American is unwilling to do. However there are job that do not pay what they should. Supply and demand, if you pay a reasonable wage, you will have legal workers, esp in this economy.

These people are being taken advantage of by disreputable employers who wont pay what the job is worth. We need to enforce the law and punish the employers and have the illegals immigrate legally.

[ELF1024]

Not true. All undocumented workers pay taxes.

Virtually every academic study has revealed different results. In many areas they provide a boost to the economy.

Cfr on the above.

[Deborah]

There is no job an American is unwilling to do.

I disagree. Try to get someone from here to work in the mushroom farms of Pennsylvania. Dark and dirty work. They also make very good money from what I've seen but they also work long hours and sometimes 7 days a week.

As I've said before we need to make it easier for immigrants to come here to work without becoming citizens rather than making criminals of everyone who wants to come here legally but is stymied by a system that is antiquated.

[LeSellers]

I was thinking more about your paranoia... which may be very real after going to the middle east.

The terrorists that killed many Americans (9-11-01).. were all LEGALLY here, right?

No, several of them had overstayed their visas, as I recall.

Even if all of them were here legally, the 19 of that day were/are not the only terrorists who threaten us. And many of them are illegal. The estimates are all over the map as to numbers, but it is nearly universally accepted that there are tens of thousands of Muslims illegally in USmerica who came in using the same routes and methods most illegals do: through Arizona and California deserts.

Lehi

[ELF1024]

I disagree. Try to get someone from here to work in the mushroom farms of Pennsylvania. Dark and dirty work. They also make very good money from what I've seen but they also work long hours and sometimes 7 days a week.

As I've said before we need to make it easier for immigrants to come here to work without becoming citizens rather than making criminals of everyone who wants to come here legally but is stymied by a system that is antiquated.

I have no problem letting more people in legally. I support fixing the system. I dont support amnesty, or rewarding bad/illegal behavior.

Edited June 26, 2011 by ELF1024

[Bob Crockett]

I don't work for ICE, nor do I make it a habit of asking peoples immigration status.

We do have a large number of LDS border patrol agents in the stake.

However, no I could not in good conscience sustain a local church leader I knew to be breaking the law. And no, I would not.

You either obey the law or you don't.

Well, that kinda puts you on the outs with the Church, doesn't it? Calling stake and local leaders who are undocumented is an extremely common practice along the Rio Grande in Texas and also frequent in California and Arizona. This all started when the Church started approving baptism of undocumenteds in the 1970s.

[ELF1024]

Well, that kinda puts you on the outs with the Church, doesn't it? Calling stake and local leaders who are undocumented is an extremely common practice along the Rio Grande in Texas and also frequent in California and Arizona. This all started when the Church started approving baptism of undocumenteds in the 1970s.

If being "the outs" with the church is supposed to cause me to lose sleep, sorry... the guilt trip isnt working.

I am in Cochise Co Arizona, and I know of no one in the Stake Presidency, bishopric, or on the High Council that I have the least bit concern about.

Edited June 26, 2011 by ELF1024

[Bob Crockett]

If being "the outs" with the church is supposed to cause me to lose sleep, sorry... the guilt trip isnt working.

I am in Cochise Co Arizona, and I know of no one in the Stake Presidency, bishopric, or on the High Council that I have the least bit concern about.

I'm not trying to guilt-trip you. But your posts on this issue are directly contrary to existing Church policy.

But I'm not condemning cafeteria Mormons. I'm sure in large part most of us fall into that description.

[ELF1024]

I'm not trying to guilt-trip you. But your posts on this issue are directly contrary to existing Church policy.

But I'm not condemning cafeteria Mormons. I'm sure in large part most of us fall into that description.

This isnt a doctrine issue. As such, i dont see myself being a cafe mormon.

Lets keep this civil, no need for name calling.

[Bob Crockett]

This isnt a doctrine issue. As such, i dont see myself being a cafe mormon.

Lets keep this civil, no need for name calling.

I'm just responding to your posts. I don't know anything about you.

Whether something is doctrine or not is irrelevant.

Church policy.

[ELF1024]

I'm just responding to your posts. I don't know anything about you.

Whether something is doctrine or not is irrelevant.

Church policy.

Which one do you choose? AoF, or current imigration policy??

They are in conflict in my opinion.

[Loran Blood]

That wall(fence) didn't work out all that well for the Great Wall of China or the Berlin Wall.

I would have to call this one of those "apples and oranges" comparisons. The Great Wall of China was built to keep out invading hordes of Mongols - a conquering army, not a steady flow of immigrants over decades seeking to enter China looking for work and opportunity.

The Berlin Wall was built as a prison wall to keep citizens of East Germany from leaving - hardly an apt comparison.

The schools are mandated by law to provide an education to all children in residence of the state regardless of the legal status of their parents.

That not a constitutional mandate, but something that can be changed on a state by state basis by legislative action.

[Bob Crockett]

Lots of things appear perhaps to be conflicting. The canonized scriptures are not "rules" but a collection of stories, sermons and direct revelation. There isn't a policies and procedures manual found in the scriptures.

But, the Brethren issue current policies and procedures. You find them in the CHI and public pronouncements.

The Church has not come out and said that current immigration policies are unChristian. But the Church has come out and said that membership, priesthood and leadership qualifications are not to be based upon immigration status.

Right-thinking and introspective Christians ought to think about why that might be.

I point you to D&C 98:5: "And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me."

At the time this was written, there were no immigration restrictions. The Lord must have intended the freedoms of the constitution to apply to "all mankind" with U.S. borders.

"And as pertaining to law of man, whatoeover is more or less this, cometh of evil" D&C 98:7. Some laws are evil. D&C 134:5 suggests that men are bound to follow the law "while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights."

[ELF1024]

Lots of things appear perhaps to be conflicting. The canonized scriptures are not "rules" but a collection of stories, sermons and direct revelation. There isn't a policies and procedures manual found in the scriptures.

But, the Brethren issue current policies and procedures. You find them in the CHI and public pronouncements.

The Church has not come out and said that current immigration policies are unChristian. But the Church has come out and said that membership, priesthood and leadership qualifications are not to be based upon immigration status.

Right-thinking and introspective Christians ought to think about why that might be.

I point you to D&C 98:5: "And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me."

At the time this was written, there were no immigration restrictions. The Lord must have intended the freedoms of the constitution to apply to "all mankind" with U.S. borders.

"And as pertaining to law of man, whatoeover is more or less this, cometh of evil" D&C 98:7. Some laws are evil. D&C 134:5 suggests that men are bound to follow the law "while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights."

Thats nice and all, but none of it justifies an open borders approach. Esp not in a time of war or in times of great evil such as these

A "pollyanna" approach to illegals is naive and is treasonous to the oath of office. All enemies foreign and domestic.