Lds Church Issues New Statement Re: Immigration

[frankenstein]

I think the author presupposes from very wrongful and distasteful things.

The author presupposes that those who do not support his position would act just like the priest or levite. I dare say that even the most ardent supporters of legal immgration would not walk past someone in need and say "well you have brown skin, you must be hispanic, and since you can not respond to me in english you must be illegal". That message is a very distasteful and rancorous message for mr. mcguire to send.

I support legal immigration, that is, come through via the appropriate channels; I am a not fond that for certain people the process can more than a decade but that is the process. I also am not fond of telling people are doing things legally, "You must wait, all these illegals get to cut in line"....what kind of message is that sending. Such a action makes the US nothing more than a land mass, with nothing to offer and nothing to teach or than "break the law, get ahead".

Edited June 18, 2011 by frankenstein

[Dampwaffles]

My best friend was murdered by illegal immigrats from Mexico in 2007 simply because he was white and his girlfriend was hispanic. We later found out that a local illegal immigrant gang requires their members to assualt, rape or murder a white person in order to get promoted. None of this has ever been mentioned in any mainstream press report that I'm aware of. It seems the media is intentionally hiding the ugly truth about illegal immigration in America. Instead, they seem to bend over backwards to protray all illegal immigrants as hard working fruit pickers and as straight A students. If you search around on the web however, you can find shocking statistics on how illegal immigration is really effecting America. They have chronic flunk out rates, they take a huge amount of welfare handouts, they create tons of ethnic gangs that terrorize communities and they commit large amounts of crime. Not to mention they take jobs away from many millions of Americans. And they refuse to integrate into American society. Rather, they prefer to dominate and chase away the native communities they mass migrate to. They also join radical brown nationalist groups such as La Raza (The Race) which implement Marxist and racist curricula which teaches kids that white people stole their land, that Southwestern America belongs to Mexico and that they're victims of white oppression which they need to resist. They also ban displays of American patriotism while fully embracing Mexican/Chicano nationalism.

Anywho, I really came to these forums not to discuss illegal immigration but to ask an odd/random question.

I heard that mormon females aren't allowed to enter another persons home if a female living in that home also isn't in the home while they visit. Is that true?

[frankenstein]

I heard that mormon females aren't allowed to enter another persons home if a female living in that home also isn't in the home while they visit. Is that true?

post this question in a separate thread.

[LeSellers]

post this question in a separate thread.

Dampwaffles can't start new topics yet, so I did.

Lehi

Edited June 19, 2011 by LeSellers

[Jeff K.]

My best friend was murdered by illegal immigrats from Mexico in 2007 simply because he was white and his girlfriend was hispanic. We later found out that a local illegal immigrant gang requires their members to assualt, rape or murder a white person in order to get promoted. None of this has ever been mentioned in any mainstream press report that I'm aware of. It seems the media is intentionally hiding the ugly truth about illegal immigration in America. Instead, they seem to bend over backwards to protray all illegal immigrants as hard working fruit pickers and as straight A students. If you search around on the web however, you can find shocking statistics on how illegal immigration is really effecting America. They have chronic flunk out rates, they take a huge amount of welfare handouts, they create tons of ethnic gangs that terrorize communities and they commit large amounts of crime. Not to mention they take jobs away from many millions of Americans. And they refuse to integrate into American society. Rather, they prefer to dominate and chase away the native communities they mass migrate to. They also join radical brown nationalist groups such as La Raza (The Race) which implement Marxist and racist curricula which teaches kids that white people stole their land, that Southwestern America belongs to Mexico and that they're victims of white oppression which they need to resist. They also ban displays of American patriotism while fully embracing Mexican/Chicano nationalism.

Anywho, I really came to these forums not to discuss illegal immigration but to ask an odd/random question.

I heard that mormon females aren't allowed to enter another persons home if a female living in that home also isn't in the home while they visit. Is that true?

I work in the inner city. Regarding illegal aliens. Yes, some belong to gangs, yes, some recieve a great deal of welfare (which stops after a few years, except in the state of CA, which full well knows and acknowledges that they are willing to pay more), in LA latino gangs are indeed involved in ethnic cleansing of many neighborhoods, and some belong to groups that are race based, and Marxist.

Now, for soem clarity. Almost all the students (except Jehovah's Witnesses and some Quakers and others) stand up and give the pledge to the US everyday. Most Latinos I know, both those here legally and otherwise also love the United States and are proud of their heritage. Many inner city students flunk, across the board, legal and illegal, this is not necessarily a question of their status so much as their parents involvement, and radical nationalist groups are not overflowing with illegal aliens, indeed many of them are citizens who well, have a radical agenda.

I can point to Vietnamese gangs and remember in the 1980's and 90's when a popular bumper sticker was "would the last American leaving Garden Grove please take the American flag with them", Garden Grove is also called "Little Saigon", of course Asians score so high now that they are not allowed minority privleges because in CA they are cruve busters... it comes down to parent involvement.

Many of the issues you cited, tend to cross ethnic lines and often deal with both legal and illegal people in this nation. So citing those issues does not create a point or indication of the quality of the people involved based on legality. In short, the issues/problems aren't limited or caused by their legality, they are caused by other things. I am an advocate of much much stronger borders, but I do not think the issues you mentioned, murder and other things, will go away if the borders are stronger.

[Dampwaffles]

I work in the inner city. Regarding illegal aliens. Yes, some belong to gangs, yes, some recieve a great deal of welfare (which stops after a few years, except in the state of CA, which full well knows and acknowledges that they are willing to pay more), in LA latino gangs are indeed involved in ethnic cleansing of many neighborhoods, and some belong to groups that are race based, and Marxist.

Now, for soem clarity. Almost all the students (except Jehovah's Witnesses and some Quakers and others) stand up and give the pledge to the US everyday. Most Latinos I know, both those here legally and otherwise also love the United States and are proud of their heritage. Many inner city students flunk, across the board, legal and illegal, this is not necessarily a question of their status so much as their parents involvement, and radical nationalist groups are not overflowing with illegal aliens, indeed many of them are citizens who well, have a radical agenda.

I can point to Vietnamese gangs and remember in the 1980's and 90's when a popular bumper sticker was "would the last American leaving Garden Grove please take the American flag with them", Garden Grove is also called "Little Saigon", of course Asians score so high now that they are not allowed minority privleges because in CA they are cruve busters... it comes down to parent involvement.

Many of the issues you cited, tend to cross ethnic lines and often deal with both legal and illegal people in this nation. So citing those issues does not create a point or indication of the quality of the people involved based on legality. In short, the issues/problems aren't limited or caused by their legality, they are caused by other things. I am an advocate of much much stronger borders, but I do not think the issues you mentioned, murder and other things, will go away if the borders are stronger.

I read that over 35% of illegal immigrant males are involved in gangs. I also read that a similar percentage flunks out of school - regardless of whether they live in the inner city or not. It also has very little to do with lack of parent involvement.

As to the Vietnamese and the success of Asians in America, you're a bit off. It's East Asians who thrive in America. Not all Asians. The Vietnamese immigrants don't do as well academically and economically as the Korean, Chinese and Japanese Americans. And while it's true that many Asians join gangs, they're more soft-crime oriented than violent crime oriented.

And just because other groups of people in America who are here legally have similar types of vices to those of illegal immigrants doesn't mean that we should do nothing about illegal immigration. You're pretty much saying that we already have tons of violent criminals here legally who leech off the state and flunk out of school, so who cares if illegal immigrants are greatly contributing to it. I fail to see the logic in that position.

The point remains that allowing tens of millions of low educated, low skilled, hostile criminal illegal immigrants into our nation is complete and utter lunacy.

[Jeff K.]

State of Asian Education in CAI would like the CFR on illegal immigrant aliens in gangs. 35%?

Total entrance by illegal aliens may be as high as 1,500,000 per year [in 2006] with a net of at least 700,000 more illegal aliens arriving each year to join the 12,000,000 to 20,000,000 that are already here.

Meaning gangs in the US are growing by 475,000 people a year? I just don't see that.

It's East Asians who thrive in America. Not all Asians. The Vietnamese immigrants don't do as well academically and economically as the Korean, Chinese and Japanese Americans. And while it's true that many Asians join gangs, they're more soft-crime oriented than violent crime oriented.

American Asians as a whole have the highest proportion of Bachelor and Graduate degrees. However Vietnamese born immigrants have a much higher rate of getting their college degree (slightly below Caucasions).

Asian Americans contemporary trends and issues

Wikipedia Illegal Immigration to the US

Vietnamese slightly below whites in graduation rates

And just because other groups of people in America who are here legally have similar types of vices to those of illegal immigrants doesn't mean that we should do nothing about illegal immigration. You're pretty much saying that we already have tons of violent criminals here legally who leech off the state and flunk out of school, so who cares if illegal immigrants are greatly contributing to it. I fail to see the logic in that position.

I didn't say we should do nothing, indeed I suggest you read my posts to understand what we should do.

You may need to calm down a bit. We always have "tons" of criminals, we always have people who "leech" of the nation, and we always have people who "flunk" out of school. There are indeed ways of dealing with all those things, I don't think your stance will make any of those issues go away.

The point remains that allowing tens of millions of low educated, low skilled, hostile criminal illegal immigrants into our nation is complete and utter lunacy.

They said the same thing regarding legal immigration of the Irish and Italians. Your argument here is based on the number versus their legality.

[ELF1024]

Here:

We believe in being ^a to ^b, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in ^c, honoring, and sustaining the ^d.

Until the law is changed, we have a responsibility to obey and honor it.

[Jeff K.]

To what extent do we obey and honor it? To the detriment of others perhaps? There are some very bad laws in the world that should not be honored or obeyed. There have been dictators and evil leaders who have had bad laws in place.

The church itself has, at times disobeyed the laws of the land. We know that to be true also.

If such is the case, then it isn't so black and white, and perhaps some mercy can creep in there now and then? I believe that is what the church is attempting to do.

As a matter of policy, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately overstaying legal travel visas.

Would policy necessarily be the same as revelation?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is concerned that any state legislation that only contains enforcement provisions is likely to fall short of the high moral standard of treating each other as children of God

While it may seem trite, what would Jesus do in this case?

[ELF1024]

To what extent do we obey and honor it? To the detriment of others perhaps? There are some very bad laws in the world that should not be honored or obeyed. There have been dictators and evil leaders who have had bad laws in place.

The church itself has, at times disobeyed the laws of the land. We know that to be true also.

Perhaps you would like to explain why this law fits under that kind of comparison.

If such is the case, then it isn't so black and white, and perhaps some mercy can creep in there now and then? I believe that is what the church is attempting to do.

And exactly what is the problem with people coming into the country legally? How do you justify people breaking the law under the guise of "mercy"?

Would policy necessarily be the same as revelation?

While it may seem trite, what would Jesus do in this case?

Jesus, being sinless, would more than likely follow the law, while at the same time attempting to get the law changed to a more fair system.

ADDITIONAL:

Or even better; Jesus would fix the corrupt governments next door thus removing the need for our neighbors to come into our country illegally.

Edited June 23, 2011 by ELF1024

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 23 June 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

To what extent do we obey and honor it? To the detriment of others perhaps? There are some very bad laws in the world that should not be honored or obeyed. There have been dictators and evil leaders who have had bad laws in place.

The church itself has, at times disobeyed the laws of the land. We know that to be true also.

Perhaps you would like to explain why this law fits under that kind of comparison.

All laws compare, in other words no law is excluded from such examination, including immigration laws. My point is that obeying and honoring the law is not always the touchstone for righteousness.

Jeff K., on 23 June 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

If such is the case, then it isn't so black and white, and perhaps some mercy can creep in there now and then? I believe that is what the church is attempting to do.

And exactly what is the problem with people coming into the country legally? How do you justify people breaking the law under the guise of "mercy"?

It might be that for decades the US has had a bad immigration policy in which it never fully acknowledged the needs of the nation and openly allowed illegal immigration to occur, thus encouraging more people to cross illegally. That could be one scenario in which we ourselves created the mess. Such policies encouraged people to come without giving much option to becoming legal. It seems the church is asking us to be merciful with those who have broken the law.

Jeff K., on 23 June 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Would policy necessarily be the same as revelation?

While it may seem trite, what would Jesus do in this case?

Jesus, being sinless, would more than likely follow the law, while at the same time attempting to get the law changed to a more fair system.

I don't know if that opinion would be valid. In a theological nation where law and sin exist as one, I would think, if such a law existed you would be right. But does law and sin remain equally tied in a nation such as ours? And if so, what of the laws our church has knowingly broken in the past?

[LeSellers]

All laws compare, in other words no law is excluded from such examination, including immigration laws. My point is that obeying and honoring the law is not always the touchstone for righteousness.

But the Saints in XIX Utah were willing (not anxious, mind you, but willing) to suffer for their civil disobedience. Illegal aliens seem to take a different approach. They want to be rewarded for their law-breaking.

Lehi

[Jeff K.]

I agree to a certain extent, except that many saints and prophets went into hiding rather than be caught, indeed the very act of marrying occurred in the US and THEN they went into hiding to avoid punishment. There are paralells.

[Jeff K.]

Ever read "The Bishop's Horse Race"

[ELF1024]

Perhaps a better question would be what can we do to solve the Socioeconomic issues in other countries to resolve the issue once and for all.

Focusing on the immigration part of the problem is being short sighted, resolving the reasons for it would be far more productive.

[Jeff K.]

Some things we can do, somethings we cannot. And there is also the "how".

[ELF1024]

Some things we can do, somethings we cannot. And there is also the "how".

Blaming the US for a reasonable immigration policy is hardly the answer. Our immigration policy is far more "merciful" than any of our southern neighbors. If we adopted the same policies as our next door neighbor (Mexico) we would be called heartless.

If our southern neighbors would solve the problem in their own houses, we would not have the problem. However, it is far more lucrative for them to continue to send their people to the US to send home American money into the Mexican economy.

Edited June 23, 2011 by ELF1024

[HeatherAnn]

I read that over 35% of illegal immigrant males are involved in gangs. I also read that a similar percentage flunks out of school - regardless of whether they live in the inner city or not. It also has very little to do with lack of parent involvement.

Dampwaffles,

Parental involvement is the most significant aspect of school success - ask any teacher or principal... or google it.

http://www.livestron...cess-in-school/

Those involved in gangs are not limited to illegal immigrants. Infact, in studies of what contributes to problem behavior, illegal immigration doesn't even come up.

http://www.gangsandk...com/gstats.html

Instead, issues like child abuse & neglect, having a gun in the home, alcohol & living in inner-cities showed as statistical factors.

Furthermore, instead of putting down a group of people, complaining & judging them all based on a few, why don't you help?

Mentoring has shown to help reduce drug use by 45% & reduced skipping school by 52%.

Have you ever been to Mexico or other Spanish-speaking western countries? Have you seen how most people live there?

If you were a parent, barely surviving, wouldn't you do all in your power to make your children's lives better?

I'm not justifying people crossing the border illegally, I'm expressing understanding & empathy for their intent.

Why do some get involved with gangs & crimes? I believe everyone is inherently good & does what we think is best.

I also believe that we all influence each other, so one's accomplishments or problems are not just the result of one, but often (if not always) -the result of many.

When we learn more, we make better decisions, when we realize opportunities to excell that is good for us & society, we take them...

I wonder if some feel they have limited opportunities, based on prejudice like you've shown.

The point remains that allowing tens of millions of low educated, low skilled, hostile criminal illegal immigrants into our nation is complete and utter lunacy.

I agree that there needs to be more order in dealing with immigration & believe that English should be the language.

However, your statement above is not only inaccurately generalized, but also racially prejudice & unChristlike.

Have you counted every single illegal immigrant, interviewed each for hositle attitudes, observed hostile behaviors & tested each's Naturlist, Musical, Logical, Existential, Interpersonal, Intra personal, Kinesthetic,Spacial & Linguistic intelligence??

I don't think so.

Did you make that sweeping overgeneralization based on a few epsidoes of bad news you watched?

How would you like to be mislabeled as you've mislabeled many of our LDS brothers & sisters?

Edited June 23, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[ELF1024]

Did you make that sweeping overgeneralization based on a few epsidoes of bad news you watched?

How would you like to be mislabeled as you've mislabeled many of our LDS brothers & sisters?

Did you know that Venezuela has ties to Hezbollah? Did you know that one of the islands off of Venezuela is being used as a Hezbollah training site?

Did you know that Hugo Chavez is buddies with Iran's current President?

While the majority of terrorists have thus far come across the Canadian border, it is just a matter of time before Hugo Chavez can train Arabs to sound (and smell) like native Spanish speakers.

How many bad apples does it take to ruin the bushel?

Edited June 23, 2011 by ELF1024

[Jeff K.]

Blaming the US for a reasonable immigration policy is hardly the answer. Our immigration policy is far more "merciful" than any of our southern neighbors. If we adopted the same policies as our next door neighbor (Mexico) we would be called heartless.

If our southern neighbors would solve the problem in their own houses, we would not have the problem. However, it is far more lucrative for them to continue to send their people to the US to send home American money into the Mexican economy.

I disagree and agree. The US is more merciful than most nations in its immigration policy. Hands down, not issue there. But the US also has had an immigration policy that encouraged illegal entry. It did not allow an increase in the numbers needed during the very very low unemployment period in the 1990's. Unemployment at one time was down to about 4% and illegal aliens were used to reign in inflationary pressures. The government also, for years, benefitted by accepting payment for false tax id numbers (you couldn't ask for a refund though). The bracero project was not needed and yet still encouraged. There are a number of other policies in place including lax border controls.

By allowing so many to enter we also encouraged our southern neighbors to avoid the responsibilities of cleaning their house.

[ELF1024]

I disagree and agree. The US is more merciful than most nations in its immigration policy. Hands down, not issue there. But the US also has had an immigration policy that encouraged illegal entry. It did not allow an increase in the numbers needed during the very very low unemployment period in the 1990's. Unemployment at one time was down to about 4% and illegal aliens were used to reign in inflationary pressures. The government also, for years, benefited by accepting payment for false tax id numbers (you couldn't ask for a refund though). The bracero project was not needed and yet still encouraged. There are a number of other policies in place including lax border controls.

By allowing so many to enter we also encouraged our southern neighbors to avoid the responsibilities of cleaning their house.

I agree that the US is not blameless.

At the same time, I live in a border state, about 20 miles from the US/Mexican Border. We have two wildfires in our county. The one nearest (monument fire) was human started in Mexico, along a well known drug/human smuggling route. The wildfire has burned down at least one home in our ward; displacing a good and righteous LDS family. We had one set of LDS evacuees living in an RV in our backyard over the weekend. Luckily, they have been able to return to their home since then.

I favor an enforcement first measure, then we can relax the immigration controls as needed. However, while we are at 10% unemployment, there is no reason to have more people flooding over the border.

[HeatherAnn]

Did you know that Venezuela has ties to Hezbollah? Did you know that one of the islands off of Venezuela is being used as a Hezbollah training site?

Did you know that Hugo Chavez is buddies with Iran's current President?

While the majority of terrorists have thus far come across the Canadian border, it is just a matter of time before Hugo Chavez can train Arabs to sound (and smell) like native Spanish speakers.

How many bad apples does it take to ruin the bushel?

So, let me get this right.

You think since Venezuela has ties to Hezbollah, that every illegal immigrant should be considered a terrorist?

Wow - you've got quite the imagination!

Unfortunately such a negative imagination adds to the problem, instead of contributing to solve it.

I disagree and agree. The US is more merciful than most nations in its

immigration policy. Hands down, not issue there. But the US also has had an

immigration policy that encouraged illegal entry. It did not allow an increase

in the numbers needed during the very very low unemployment period in the

1990's. Unemployment at one time was down to about 4% and illegal aliens were

used to reign in inflationary pressures. The government also, for years,

benefitted by accepting payment for false tax id numbers (you couldn't ask for a

refund though). The bracero project was not needed and yet still encouraged.

There are a number of other policies in place including lax border

controls.

By allowing so many to enter we also encouraged our southern

neighbors to avoid the responsibilities of cleaning their house.

Good points.

[Jeff K.]

I agree that the US is not blameless.

At the same time, I live in a border state, about 20 miles from the US/Mexican Border. We have two wildfires in our county. The one nearest (monument fire) was human started in Mexico, along a well known drug/human smuggling route. The wildfire has burned down at least one home in our ward; displacing a good and righteous LDS family. We had one set of LDS evacuees living in an RV in our backyard over the weekend. Luckily, they have been able to return to their home since then.

I favor an enforcement first measure, then we can relax the immigration controls as needed. However, while we are at 10% unemployment, there is no reason to have more people flooding over the border.

I think you and I agree on stopping the flood or ensuring that large groups cease crossing the border. And using greater eforcement along the border to stop it. I think some accomodation however can be made regarding those here who haven't broken other laws.

[ELF1024]

So, let me get this right.

You think since Venezuela has ties to Hezbollah, that every illegal immigrant should be considered a terrorist?

Wow - you've got quite the imagination!

Unfortunately such a negative imagination adds to the problem, instead of contributing to solve it.

Good points.

I may have quite the imagination. However, actually having gone to Iraq and Afghanistan; I think I am entitled to my paranoia.

It only takes one bad apple to ruin the whole bunch. Every illegal should be treated as a potential criminal, and hazard to public safety; and that beyond already being a criminal for being in the country illegally.

It's not paranoia when they are out to get you, and you should know (after 9/11) that they really are out to get us.

[seriously honestly]

I do not know all of the details myself. What I do know is in my ward we have the AP's and I at the time was the ward mission leader (conversation was about 7 weeks ago). One of the Elders was from Arizona and was called Spanish speaking where we are. Both of us are sensitive to immigration issues but recognize it is a major problem. As such we have had a few discussions about immigration. With that background in place during a dinner appointment he informed me of the exact scenario that I told you of (that an illegal missionary was called Spanish speaking and was coming to the field 'by his parent dropping him off' to be trained 'in field' instead of the MTC because if he went to the MTC he would possibly be subject to deportation.)

He thought it was messed up, but as a missionary of course he valued missionaries and conversion over the law so to speak and if its ok with the Prophet it was ok by him. Since the Elder was an AP and Spanish speaking he was directly involved in the leadership aspect of the scenario. This mission has downsized quite a bit due to low baptism, so more Elders was better than less Elders in his view. In my view it is messed up.

Biz

I agree that it is messed up, and believe it is entirely inappropriate and hypocritical. It would be like an alcoholic who enjoys drinking trying to hide their addiction so they can preach sobriety to someone else.