Faith And Reason

[Libs]

Any unreasonable OR reasonable belief can grow in this manner. The point is, Libs, that he who seeks reason to the point of excellency will reason about the reasonableness of those points from which he departed and weigh the evidence (rational or otherwise) between his point of departure and other points of departure possible.The religious will only very seldom inquire about them.

Not sure I understand what you're saying, El.

It sounds like you are saying the religious will only reason to a certain point and then will take it no further, because of their faith?

[IloveaMormon]

I think one must employ both faith and logic. 50/50 seems about right to me but I'm an apostate so what do I know?

Faith and logic. For me, it's connecting with the love of God in myself through contemplation, critical thinking and trying to perceive the world and everything in it as full of Gods love.

[Libs]

Faith and logic. For me, it's connecting with the love of God in myself through contemplation, critical thinking and trying to perceive the world and everything in it as full of Gods love.

Now, that, I understand.

[ebeddoulos]

I am most fortunate. I have found that for me faith and reason are two sides of the same coin called personal revelation. One night, a bit over 40 years ago, I was at an age of teenage angst and testosterone overload and sorely lacking in both faith and reason. While resting on a wind carved boulder overlooking a bend in the Duchesne River, I turned from a social Mormon without faith into a believing Latter-day Saint. Because of the events of that night, in my own way, I can honestly say that I know that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God; that the Book of Mormon is quite literally the revealed word of God; that the church is true and lead by modern day prophets called of God.

Based on past experience, I also know that there will be those who will discount my statement, others who will think/state that I exagerate or prevaricate, and still others who will insist that I could not possibly mean what I say. It does not matter to me. My faith is such that it is no more dependent on the opinions of others than my faith needs to be divorced from reasoned scientific evidence. Through both faith and reason – in combination with personal revelation – I have assurance without inner conflict in evolution, the resurrection of Jesus, the unfathomable age of the universe and the historicity of the Nephites – all with equal fervor. Prayers are answered, the Holy Ghost does reveal and faith in partnership with reason will prevail.

[cinepro]

At last, you are making some sense.

To go further, when I taught the lesson on "Faith" in EQ a few months ago, I asked the following questions:

1. Who has more "faith"? A person who has studied a subject and has lots of knowledge or a person who strongly believes with little study or knowledge?

For example, when I start my car, I do it with a knowledge of how the car battery, starter, gasoline, engine and transmission all work to start the car and propel it. When my wife starts the car, she just knows that she turns the key and somehow it (usually) gets her where she needs to go. Does my wife have more "faith" than I do in the car? Therefore, when we find rational and scientific evidences for gospel and scriptural things, are we actually reducing our "faith"?

2. Did Joseph Smith have faith in God and Jesus Christ?

[elguanteloko]

Not sure I understand what you're saying, El.

It sounds like you are saying the religious will only reason to a certain point and then will take it no further, because of their faith?

That's close enough to what I'm saying.

[mfbukowski]

To go further, when I taught the lesson on "Faith" in EQ a few months ago, I asked the following questions:

1. Who has more "faith"? A person who has studied a subject and has lots of knowledge or a person who strongly believes with little study or knowledge?

For example, when I start my car, I do it with a knowledge of how the car battery, starter, gasoline, engine and transmission all work to start the car and propel it. When my wife starts the car, she just knows that she turns the key and somehow it (usually) gets her where she needs to go. Does my wife have more "faith" than I do in the car? Therefore, when we find rational and scientific evidences for gospel and scriptural things, are we actually reducing our "faith"?

Depends on how you look at it.

I find these questions definitional and can't see how they are important, or what difference attempting to answer them could possibly have in my life or anyone else's.

2. Did Joseph Smith have faith in God and Jesus Christ?

Yes. Do you doubt that?

He had revelations like we all do. He had to have faith that they were "real" and not hallucinations, or "just feelings", as we all do.

[Libs]

To go further, when I taught the lesson on "Faith" in EQ a few months ago, I asked the following questions:

1. Who has more "faith"? A person who has studied a subject and has lots of knowledge or a person who strongly believes with little study or knowledge?

For example, when I start my car, I do it with a knowledge of how the car battery, starter, gasoline, engine and transmission all work to start the car and propel it. When my wife starts the car, she just knows that she turns the key and somehow it (usually) gets her where she needs to go. Does my wife have more "faith" than I do in the car? Therefore, when we find rational and scientific evidences for gospel and scriptural things, are we actually reducing our "faith"?

2. Did Joseph Smith have faith in God and Jesus Christ?

In other words, actual knowledge doesn't require faith?

I think the whole idea of following gospel principles is to increase knowledge. But, it seems to me, increased knowledge would also increase one's faith. Faith can also be defined as loyalty and trust.

From Merriam-Webster:

1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

[Deborah]

1. Who has more "faith"? A person who has studied a subject and has lots of knowledge or a person who strongly believes with little study or knowledge?

Interesting question, but I think it still requires faith in either case. For the person who has knowledge, he still has to believe the car will start. And what if one day it doesn't (I've had that happen many times). Now because of his knowledge he may be able to do some tweaking and get the car to start but he still is relying on faith that he tweaked correctly. The person who has no knowledge will find someone who does and the same principle applies; you exercise faith in the one who has knowledge to be able to fix the problem.

[cinepro]

Interesting question, but I think it still requires faith in either case. For the person who has knowledge, he still has to believe the car will start. And what if one day it doesn't (I've had that happen many times). Now because of his knowledge he may be able to do some tweaking and get the car to start but he still is relying on faith that he tweaked correctly. The person who has no knowledge will find someone who does and the same principle applies; you exercise faith in the one who has knowledge to be able to fix the problem.

That's exactly the problem. Once we broaden the definition of "faith" to mean "any time anyone does something", the word ceases to have meaning. If "faith" is just a simple, common element of human nature. And since dogs and other animals also seem to be able to figure out "cause and effect" relationships too, I guess it's animal nature too.

So it's pretty silly to say it's "the First Principle of the Gospel". Obviously God wants it to mean something different than believing in him the way we believe a light will turn on if we flip a light switch or the faith a dog has that when his owner walks towards the door carrying the leash, he's going for a walk.

[cinepro]

Yes. Do you doubt that?

I say no, Joseph Smith didn't have faith after the First Vision. He had knowledge.

Unless you reduce "knowledge" to the philosophical Matrix-like idea that we all just have "faith" that we exist and that this computer keyboard isn't an image implanted in my brain by aliens.

[mfbukowski]

I say no, Joseph Smith didn't have faith after the First Vision. He had knowledge.

Unless you reduce "knowledge" to the philosophical Matrix-like idea that we all just have "faith" that we exist and that this computer keyboard isn't an image implanted in my brain by aliens.

Believe what you like- it makes no difference to me.

[Deborah]

I say no, Joseph Smith didn't have faith after the First Vision. He had knowledge.

I would concede that he had knowledge of that one thing, that God the Father and Jesus existed and were separate Beings. But there were many things he still had to do on faith. I think it helped that he had that first vision and it gave him strength to continue in faith in other areas.

[LeSellers]

it's pretty silly to say [faith is] "the First Principle of the Gospel".

It's not only silly; it's a misstatement of our belief.

We believe the first principle of the Gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not merely "faith", per se.

Lehi

[cinepro]

It's not only silly; it's a misstatement of our belief.

We believe the first principle of the Gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, not merely "faith", per se.

Lehi

Good point, but my point stands that the word "faith" still has to mean something beyond being a semantic philosophic construction applied to even the most basic form of cause-and-effect observations.