Was Joseph Smith Persecuted For Sharing The First Vision

[Ariarates]

Your mastery of the English language is impressive, then. I would never have guessed.

Well, I don't know about impressive but it's good enough. As a non-native speaker, though, you sometimes miss the nuance of a word, the way the word "feels" when you hear it. ELF1024's analogy was helpful.

Anyway, I'm pretty much convinced that there is not much independent evidence for severe persecution over the first vision during the 1820s and early 1830s, as you claimed in the other thread. At least I have not seen any being presented here. That doesn't mean I'm going along with the conclusion that there wasn't any such persecution because that doesn't necessarily follow from the facts but it does give me something to think about regarding my own preconceptions.

[Vance]

If JS didn't tell many people about the vision then he wouldn't have been persecuted.

And the ONLY way they could have hear about it was from JS's own lips, right? No such thing as gossip back then, right?

[ELF1024]

And the ONLY way they could have hear about it was from JS's own lips, right? No such thing as gossip back then, right?

I would have prefered to gossip about Aunt Mayble losing her wooden teeth, again...

Edited June 3, 2011 by ELF1024

[Rob Bowman]

Deborah,

You wrote:

I don't know how many of you have dealt with head lice, but nit picking after the lice are dead is very tedious. Of course that is where the term nit-picking comes from and this subject is a perfect example of that.

Scholarship, including historical scholarship, requires attention to seemingly nit-picky details. It's not for everyone.

[Ariarates]

I don't know how many of you have dealt with head lice, but nit picking after the lice are dead is very tedious. Of course that is where the term nit-picking comes from and this subject is a perfect example of that.

If not on an internet apologetics board, then where?

This reminds me of a description of this site I read yesterday in John Gunnison's "The Mormons":

"The homogeneousness of this sect consists in their obedience to counsel; but as the great majority is of course made up, like other communities, of all sorts of dispositions, they vary in habits and thinking according to individual character. Thus they allow that mistakes have been made by individuals in carrying out their doctrines; (...)

There is a casuistic view taken of the right to make a distinction between what is publicly proclaimed by the Seer, or under his approbation from the desk, and what may be called floating opinion, and practice also, arising from his private promulgations to certain members. On this they say that it is proper to deny certain things to exist as doctrine, which may be quite universally held and acted upon among them, because it has not been publicly proclaimed—and also to deny any thing offensive to the Christian world at large, especially when the affirmative would do others no good, and themselves harm; from which has arisen the opinion that they preach one thing abroad, and practise quite differently at home.

For to the initiated only is it given to know the "mysteries of the kingdom," and they hesitate not to rebuke the impertinent curiosity of the Mormonish at home, and the tares among the wheat — and meet the outsiders with a flat denial of what, to a true believer, would be readily admitted as correct. It is to them the pleading of guilty or not guilty of a court of justice.

Their casuistry makes this perfectly proper to their own minds, and it often turns on the meaning of certain words which convey a peculiar sense to each party."

[Vance]

I would have prefered to gossip about Aunt Mayble losing her wooden teeth, again...

It was in all the "multiple" local rags, in detail! It couldn't have been missed.

[Vance]

Scholarship, including historical scholarship, requires attention to seemingly nit-picky details. It's not for everyone.

Does it also include disregarding a persons own words, that of his mother, other incidents that match their narrative, and taking the opposite position with absolutely no evidence?

Edited June 3, 2011 by Vance

[CV75]

So there is some mention of persecution, but Joseph seems to have taken it in stride and didn't dwell on it much. I think the canonized version is the most interesting one because one would expect to find evidence of a coordinated, sustained effort by men of high standing of all sects as described in verse 22. Are there any history buffs here who can confirm this? Thanks!

It would seem, from Joseph's perspective, that the persecution did begin with and because of the First Vision from a couple of standpoints. Without the first vision, there would be no subsequent activity (angels, gold bibles, etc.) to persecute. The devil knew of the first vision and inspired opposition and related mechanisms accordingly, even before the persecutors heard of the first vision. The persecutors did not have to be conscious of their having been united by the adversary in any coordinated, sustained effort.

[Vance]

The persecutors did not have to be conscious of their having been united by the adversary in any coordinated, sustained effort.

And the same continues today.

[Deborah]

Scholarship, including historical scholarship, requires attention to seemingly nit-picky details. It's not for everyone.

Unfortunately I haven't seen any scholarship on this, just opinion which is contrary to the evidence which is available.

[LeSellers]

If JS didn't tell many people about the vision then he wouldn't have been persecuted.

Joseph had six little brothers and sisters. They all knew of his experience, too, so whether or not he told "many people about the vision" or not, it was sure to have been spread around the community.

I can't say whether Lucy Mack or Joseph, Senior, would have told their friends, but it's a fair bet that the rest of the family, perhaps even Hyrum and Alvin, may have mentioned it to someone.

Lehi

[bookofmormontruth]

There is the story that Lucy tells in which someone attempted to shoot Joseph.

They obviously missed so this would not be considered "persecution".

Notice how "those" who demand "evidence" (with anything related to the truth about Joseph Smith) conveniently ignore the evidence.

Some have posted clear evidence of persecution (scroll back to see), yet no responses to the contrary because we see that evidence destroys agendas.

During this time (1826 - My link) we were frequently visited by my young friend, Joseph Smith, who would entertain us with accounts of the wonderful things which had happened to him. It was evident to me that great things were about to be accomplished through him--that the Lord was about to use him as an instrument in His hands to bring to pass the great and mighty work of the last days. This chosen instrument told us of God's manifestations to him, of the discovery and receiving of the plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated, of his persecutions for the gospel's sake, and many other items of his eventful life.

So honest and plain were all his statements that there was no room for any misgivings with me on the subject. Besides, I found by reading and searching the Bible, that there would be a great falling away from the gospel as preached and established by Jesus and His apostles, that in the last days God would set His hand again to restore that which was lost. Then why should anyone persecute this boy? I could not. Yet, to my certain knowledge, many did; and those who professed to be preacher's of the gospel, were often his vilest persecutors; (SOUNDS LIKE TODAY!) and notwithstanding they all professed to doubt the reality of his having the plates of which be had spoken, yet so eager were they to get them from him, that it was only by the Lord, or a kind angel, warning him from time to time of the pursuit of his enemies, that he was enabled to preserve the sacred records. In fact, it seemed very much like it was with Joseph and Mary, the mother of Jesus, being warned of God to flee from place to place, to save the young child; so has Joseph Smith been warned many times, and then barely escaped his pursuers. Of this I can bear a faithful testimony My link

Speaking of persecution.

How about we flip it around. Possible evidence of "grotesque and untimely deaths" of those who persecuted Joseph Smith. My link / My link

[why me]

You claim is easy enough to prove. Take a video of a 14 year old boy, claiming to have seen Christ, put it up on Youtube, and lets see if he is "persecuted."

I would guess that the clip would be widely ignored.

In fact David Mitchell walked around the streets of SLC claiming to have spoken to God. Most people either ignored him, or pitied him. I am not aware of anyone persecuting him.

We can not compare are media infested time with the time of Joseph Smith. Nor the can we link the mindset of the people at that time of Joseph Smith with now. For someone to claim that they not just seen Christ but the Father would have been pretty much mocked at that time of Joseph Smith. And if he would persist in the claim, there would be some form of persecution. and if that person produced a book, claiming to be from god... well...the persecution will certainly happen.

Edited June 4, 2011 by why me

[why me]

Oh, this couldn't have been the result of persecution, because nobody "cared" that JS was a visionary man. And if they did care, they wouldn't have persecuted him for it, being good Christians and all. So nobody would have thought to claim that JS was a fraud visionary, right? Nah, nothing to see here. Move along.

Well, someone cared. Eventually, he was murdered and before that thrown in prison a couple of times and mormons had their homes and livlihood taken away from them by mobs. It is amazing for some to claim that Joseph was not persecuted. My guess is that the persecution started an informal way and as Joseph continued with his story and began to expand into forming his own church and to challenge the dominant protestant position, the persecution increased. I do believe that if he would just fade away into the wilderness, he would have been forgotten and the persecution would have subsided. His persistence got him in the end.

[why me]

1) I doubt that the heads of all (or even part) of the churches would be meeting together, let alone discuss JS. They were in competition for converts.

2) I doubt that the persecution was as organized as you might expect. Rumors and gossip spread the news and I suspect that the persecution was more of the different ministers taking opportunistic pot shots from the pulpit to build themselves up in the eyes of the audience, and individuals taking opportunistic pot shots at JS when passing.

But hey, keep looking. If you DO find something it would be fantastic. But collecting and looking through all available letters and diaries of the time and place would be a tremendous task.

The germ of persecution can start small and then accumulate strength as it begins and festers inside more people. I don't think that it was his experience that brought on the persecution, but his persistence in claiming that experience and organizing his own church. And then bringing forth a book from what he claimed was from god. The persecution ball began to grow larger as it rolled down the hill.

Edited June 4, 2011 by why me

[Nevo]

Rob makes a key point when he notes that "we have lots of statements from non-Mormons and Mormons alike about what people thought about Joseph in the 1820s and 1830s, and in all of those statements there is no reference to the vision or to Joseph being persecuted prior to his obtaining the gold plates."

There may be a couple of exceptions to this, but Rob's point is basically valid. Philastus Hurlbut, you will recall, canvassed Palmyra and Manchester pretty thoroughly in 1833 to dig up whatever dirt he could find on the Smith family and on Joseph in particular. Hurlbut obtained affidavits from 72 individuals who claimed to know Joseph Smith. None of the Hurlbut affidavits say a word about a vision of Deity. Instead, there is a heavy emphasis on the Smiths' money-digging activities. I think that is significant. Either these neighbors didn't know about the 1820 vision, or they didn't take any notice of it. If Joseph's first vision created an uproar in 1820, nobody seems to have remembered it thirteen years later.

I think Joseph did have a vision of God in 1820, but I don't think he talked about it much. I think the persecution he experienced as a teenager stemmed largely from the angel and gold plates story.

[LeSellers]

Philastus Hurlbut, you will recall, canvassed Palmyra and Manchester pretty thoroughly in 1833 to dig up whatever dirt he could find on the Smith family and on Joseph in particular. Hurlbut obtained affidavits from 72 individuals who claimed to know Joseph Smith.

Of course, the fact that Hurlebut wrote those affidavits makes them, and their content, along with any inferences one might make based on them, a moot point, don't you think?

Lehi

[why me]

Rob makes a key point when he notes that "we have lots of statements from non-Mormons and Mormons alike about what people thought about Joseph in the 1820s and 1830s, and in all of those statements there is no reference to the vision or to Joseph being persecuted prior to his obtaining the gold plates."

There may be a couple of exceptions to this, but Rob's point is basically valid. Philastus Hurlbut, you will recall, canvassed Palmyra and Manchester pretty thoroughly in 1833 to dig up whatever dirt he could find on the Smith family and on Joseph in particular. Hurlbut obtained affidavits from 72 individuals who claimed to know Joseph Smith. None of the Hurlbut affidavits say a word about a vision of Deity. Instead, there is a heavy emphasis on the Smiths' money-digging activities. I think that is significant. Either these neighbors didn't know about the 1820 vision, or they didn't take any notice of it. If Joseph's first vision created an uproar in 1820, nobody seems to have remembered it thirteen years later.

I think Joseph did have a vision of God in 1820, but I don't think he talked about it much. I think the persecution he experienced as a teenager stemmed largely from the angel and gold plates story.

Your idea tends to go along with my ideas that I posted above. The persecution truly began with the book of mormon and with Joseph challenging the protestant churches. But as a young boy having a vision, especially how he discribed his first vision the first time, would not raise too many eyebrows. However, his vision may have sparked indirect persecution as JS gained more influence.

[Deborah]

However, his vision may have sparked indirect persecution as JS gained more influence.

I agree with this. Just the fact that Joseph had his vision would have prompted Satan to put animus into the hearts of those around him. Someone mentioned the money digging as a cause. However, given the times money digging was very common and would not have been the cause of unusual persecution. The fact is that Joseph's family began to experience an increased prejudice once Joseph was contacted by God.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I agree with this. Just the fact that Joseph had his vision would have prompted Satan to put animus into the hearts of those around him. Someone mentioned the money digging as a cause. However, given the times money digging was very common and would not have been the cause of unusual persecution. The fact is that Joseph's family began to experience an increased prejudice once Joseph was contacted by God.

One other thing is that JS only makes mention of one person that gave him a hard time about his first vision.

When I look at everything it is hard for me to say that JS was heavily persecuted for the first vision. Was he persecuted because of it? According to JS he was at least once.

[LeSellers]

One other thing is that JS only makes mention of one person that gave him a hard time about his first vision.

It's more accurate to say that he identified only one person (the Methodist minister). He mentioned many others.

Lehi

Edited June 6, 2011 by LeSellers

[Jaybear]

I agree with this. Just the fact that Joseph had his vision would have prompted Satan to put animus into the hearts of those around him. Someone mentioned the money digging as a cause. However, given the times money digging was very common and would not have been the cause of unusual persecution. The fact is that Joseph's family began to experience an increased prejudice once Joseph was contacted by God.

Please explain how Satan put "animus" into someone's heart, without infringing on their free will?

The concept/doctrine of Mormonism that I hold in highest regard is the doctrine of free agency. We are and should be solely responsible for the choices we make in this life.

What you are suggesting is that Satan has some special power to manipulate our emotions, causing humans to do things that, they would not otherwise do, such as persecuting a young man who claims to have a vision.

As for the money digging. The people who "persecuted" Smith for engaging in this business, are those like me, who don't believe that you can find buried treasure by looking a stone in your hat (or communicate with the dead, or read fortunes from palm, tea leaves,etc), and believe that those who pretend to have such a talent(s), and take money from people on that pretense are criminals. How were they supposed to know that unlike all others who have falsely pretended to have such a supernatural talent, Smith actually had such a gift? After all he never led anyone to any buried treasure. Why shouldn't they have run Smith out of town?

[fatherofone]

Please explain how Satan put "animus" into someone's heart, without infringing on their free will?

The concept/doctrine of Mormonism that I hold in highest regard is the doctrine of free agency. We are and should be solely responsible for the choices we make in this life.

What you are suggesting is that Satan has some special power to manipulate our emotions, causing humans to do things that, they would not otherwise do, such as persecuting a young man who claims to have a vision.

I have always wondered how Satan gets so much credit for all the evil in the world, especially since lds believes in free agency

[LeSellers]

I have always wondered how Satan gets so much credit for all the evil in the world, especially since lds believes in free agency

Welcome back. Glad you resolved your conflicts in a positive way.

Satan is a master tempter and a liar. His work is to thwart that of God. He does all in his power to lead men astray, and to make them his slaves.

Only when they have, for all intents and purposes, sold themselves to him for the glitter of the world, can he force them to act as he desires. Until then, he lies to us, he shows us half the story, he makes that which would be ugly appear beautiful, and leads us carefully down to hell.

Agency is a dangerous, two-edged sword.

Lehi

[fatherofone]

Welcome back. Glad you resolved your conflicts in a positive way.

Satan is a master tempter and a liar. His work is to thwart that of God. He does all in his power to lead men astray, and to make them his slaves.

Only when they have, for all intents and purposes, sold themselves to him for the glitter of the world, can he force them to act as he desires. Until then, he lies to us, he shows us half the story, he makes that which would be ugly appear beautiful, and leads us carefully down to hell.

Agency is a dangerous, two-edged sword.

Lehi

I do not understand that, Satan cannot force anyone to do anything they otherwise would not, if he can then free agency does not exist