Meldrum And May'S Recent Conference

[Franktalk]

What I find interesting is how we all look for natural cause and effect. I do it as well. But is it true that God could have just transported the whole bunch to the new world without a boat? So if we accept that as a supernatural possibility then why do we keep digging deeper and deeper into observable natural events? Where do we draw the line so that man must struggle yet God's will is satisfied? And if God did intervene then all of the examination of nature means nothing.

[nosmelone]

What I find interesting is how we all look for natural cause and effect. I do it as well. But is it true that God could have just transported the whole bunch to the new world without a boat? So if we accept that as a supernatural possibility then why do we keep digging deeper and deeper into observable natural events? Where do we draw the line so that man must struggle yet God's will is satisfied? And if God did intervene then all of the examination of nature means nothing.

I believe your completely right, I mean we see just that in the story of the Jaredites in Ether 5:8 And it came to pass that the wind did never cease to blow towards the promised land while they were upon the waters; and thus they were driven forth before the wind. It also later says that they were driven forth 344 days. I think Br.Meldrums evidence is interesting but as you said with God's divine intervention the examination of nature means nothing.

[volgadon]

But is it true that God could have just transported the whole bunch to the new world without a boat?

Why then is it written about a boat?

[Calm]

What I find interesting is how we all look for natural cause and effect. I do it as well. But is it true that God could have just transported the whole bunch to the new world without a boat? So if we accept that as a supernatural possibility then why do we keep digging deeper and deeper into observable natural events? Where do we draw the line so that man must struggle yet God's will is satisfied? And if God did intervene then all of the examination of nature means nothing.

True, but I would suspect that most LDS's experience with blessings is that God uses primarily natural cause and effect and that "supernatural" efforts are limited primarily to personal communication and direction. If so, then it would not be surprising to believe that the same sort of process was used by God with others in former times.

[livy111us]

For a group that believes that Joseph Smith "knew" where the BOM took place, they sure like to ignore statements by him and other close associates of his. Joseph Smith taught that “Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land, and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, and improved the country, according to the word of the Lord, as a branch of the house of Israel”

It was also taught that:

"A manuscript in handwriting of Frederick G. Williams contains a copy of a revelation and material concerning the Book of Mormon. This explanation of scripture, like others in the Doctrine and Covenants, apparently originated from Joseph Smith, Jr.

The course that Lehi traveled from the city of Jerusalem to the place where he and his family took ship, they traveled nearly a south south East direction untill they came to the nineteenth degree of North Lattitude, then nearly east to the Sea of Arabia then sailed in a south east direction and landed on the continent of South America in Chile thirty degrees south Lattitude.

(Frederick G. Williams Papers, LDS archives

A manuscript in handwriting of Frederick G. Williams contains a copy of a revelation and material concerning the Book of Mormon. This explanation of scripture, like others in the Doctrine and Covenants, apparently originated from Joseph Smith, Jr.

The course that Lehi traveled from the city of Jerusalem to the place where he and his family took ship, they traveled nearly a south south East direction untill they came to the nineteenth degree of North Lattitude, then nearly east to the Sea of Arabia then sailed in a south east direction and landed on the continent of South America in Chile thirty degrees south Lattitude."

(Frederick G. Williams Papers, LDS archives) http://www.xmission.com/~research/central/resscri6.htm

If they landed in Chile, they would have been sailing East, not west.

[Franktalk]

True, but I would suspect that most LDS's experience with blessings is that God uses primarily natural cause and effect and that "supernatural" efforts are limited primarily to personal communication and direction. If so, then it would not be surprising to believe that the same sort of process was used by God with others in former times.

Have you ever thought about why God does this? If God transported the people the worth of the experience goes away. Those who followed Christ and saw His miracles for the most part soon fell away. Even the crowd in Jerusalem did not care about His miracles. So God uses nature as a tool to give worth to events. The hardship of the individuals leaves a mark on all involved. The hardship also offers opportunities for a falling away then a re-establishment with God when we seek to be literally saved. Which leads to spiritually being saved. But God also allows wiggle room for disbelief. We are to live in faith and not evidence. It is no accident that Ninevah was buried for 2300 years. So when Darwin published his book the great city of Ninevah was uncovered. So balance was maintained. People could see the evidence of the Bible or they could see evidence of man detailing evolution. I suspect we will not know for sure where the cities are because God does not want us to know. This should not stop us from looking because we don't know for sure we are blinded or not.

[nosmelone]

For a group that believes that Joseph Smith "knew" where the BOM took place, they sure like to ignore statements by him and other close associates of his. Joseph Smith taught that “Lehi went down by the Red Sea to the great Southern Ocean, and crossed over to this land, and landed a little south of the Isthmus of Darien, and improved the country, according to the word of the Lord, as a branch of the house of Israel”

It was also taught that:

"A manuscript in handwriting of Frederick G. Williams contains a copy of a revelation and material concerning the Book of Mormon. This explanation of scripture, like others in the Doctrine and Covenants, apparently originated from Joseph Smith, Jr.

The course that Lehi traveled from the city of Jerusalem to the place where he and his family took ship, they traveled nearly a south south East direction untill they came to the nineteenth degree of North Lattitude, then nearly east to the Sea of Arabia then sailed in a south east direction and landed on the continent of South America in Chile thirty degrees south Lattitude.

(Frederick G. Williams Papers, LDS archives

A manuscript in handwriting of Frederick G. Williams contains a copy of a revelation and material concerning the Book of Mormon. This explanation of scripture, like others in the Doctrine and Covenants, apparently originated from Joseph Smith, Jr.

The course that Lehi traveled from the city of Jerusalem to the place where he and his family took ship, they traveled nearly a south south East direction untill they came to the nineteenth degree of North Lattitude, then nearly east to the Sea of Arabia then sailed in a south east direction and landed on the continent of South America in Chile thirty degrees south Lattitude."

(Frederick G. Williams Papers, LDS archives) http://www.xmission....al/resscri6.htm

If they landed in Chile, they would have been sailing East, not west.

Good find!

[rodheadlee]

It would be interesting to hear Rodheadlee's perspective as well. I don't tend to speculate against the likes of Nibley, Aston, Hilton, or Brown so I was just wondering how they came to their conclusions without doing my own research (ok, I'm being lazy). I haven't been to the visitors center for almost a year or so, I wonder if they still have that display? Anyways thanks for the insight.

You need to find maps of the tradewinds and the monsoon winds, then combine them with the current map you posted. The route Larry proposes in the equatorial counter current goes against the wind. The Phoenician route is very plausible. I personally think they went south from Arabia in the proper monsoon season to the roaring 40's, where the winds and currents flow to the east, and then east under Australia and New Zealand. Then the course would have curved northward upon approach to South America (around the South Pacific High) to the conglomeration of currents north of the equator near Central America where the counter current and winds would have set them to Guatemala. This same route could have been used for a Chile landfall. They could have taken many days without sighting land and fits the text IIRC.

I also think their boat was a sloop with a decent keel and probably had the ability to sail against the wind somewhat (no one sails to windward on purpose for long distance). This design would have been way curious for the times.

Jimmy Cornell's WORLD CRUISING ROUTES would be a very informative book for studying the subject of winds and currents and almost all cruising sailors have a copy onboard.

[poulsenll]

You need to find maps of the tradewinds and the monsoon winds, then combine them with the current map you posted. The route Larry proposes in the equatorial counter current goes against the wind. The Phoenician route is very plausible. I personally think they went south from Arabia in the proper monsoon season to the roaring 40's, where the winds and currents flow to the east, and then east under Australia and New Zealand. Then the course would have curved northward upon approach to South America (around the South Pacific High) to the conglomeration of currents north of the equator near Central America where the counter current and winds would have set them to Guatemala. This same route could have been used for a Chile landfall. They could have taken many days without sighting land and fits the text IIRC.

I also think their boat was a sloop with a decent keel and probably had the ability to sail against the wind somewhat (no one sails to windward on purpose for long distance). This design would have been way curious for the times.

Jimmy Cornell's WORLD CRUISING ROUTES would be a very informative book for studying the subject of winds and currents and almost all cruising sailors have a copy onboard.

Rod

Thanks for the info on the winds. The route you suggest would be supported by both current and wind. I have long favored such a route. As you say it would suppot a landing in either Chile or Guatemala. In speaking of the equatorial current , I just wanted to point out that the current map did not by itself negate a pacific crossing as proposed by Meldrum.

Larry P

[rodheadlee]

Rod

Thanks for the info on the winds. The route you suggest would be supported by both current and wind. I have long favored such a route. As you say it would suppot a landing in either Chile or Guatemala. In speaking of the equatorial current , I just wanted to point out that the current map did not by itself negate a pacific crossing as proposed by Meldrum.

Larry P

That's right Larry a Pacific crossing from Asia to the Americas is very plausible. A pressure gradient chart along with the wind and current charts should be used to plan an ocean crossing. These Pilot Charts have all the needed information.

http://msi.nga.mil/NGAPortal/MSI.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=msi_portal_page_62&pubCode=0003

sorry for the crude link.

[rodheadlee]

In considering their route, don't forget the tempest in 1 Nephi 18.

Actually, it's been a dream of mine to recreate that portion of the journey ever since I heard about Kon Tiki in grade school. Anyone want to join me?

Sure, I'm always up for a sail.

[rodheadlee]

However, the jet streams move from West to East towards the Americas. This is why we have been finding traces of radioactivity all the way over here from the Japan nuclear power plant problem. Personally, I think wind would be more significant in sailing than currents. If you've ever been boating, wind can blow you upstream against the currents in an average boat without sails. If you add sails to the picture you could easily go against the strongest currents. These winds could take a ship from SE Asia to Mesoamerica without any problem.

That depends on the current. No one sails against the Gulfstream, you cross it at a right angle or ride with it. If the wind is against the current it really stands the waves up close together, it's miserable.

[nosmelone]

You need to find maps of the tradewinds and the monsoon winds, then combine them with the current map you posted. The route Larry proposes in the equatorial counter current goes against the wind. The Phoenician route is very plausible. I personally think they went south from Arabia in the proper monsoon season to the roaring 40's, where the winds and currents flow to the east, and then east under Australia and New Zealand. Then the course would have curved northward upon approach to South America (around the South Pacific High) to the conglomeration of currents north of the equator near Central America where the counter current and winds would have set them to Guatemala. This same route could have been used for a Chile landfall. They could have taken many days without sighting land and fits the text IIRC.

I also think their boat was a sloop with a decent keel and probably had the ability to sail against the wind somewhat (no one sails to windward on purpose for long distance). This design would have been way curious for the times.

Jimmy Cornell's WORLD CRUISING ROUTES would be a very informative book for studying the subject of winds and currents and almost all cruising sailors have a copy onboard.

Great information, I didn't even think of going under Australia and New Zealand. Would a journey like this take an extremely long amount of time. I know that the Book of Mormon doesn't say that they stopped to pick up food at other places but I just wonder how much food storage would be needed in a scenario like this. I've heard it said that the boat would have made the journey but would their be any survivors? Those pilot charts have a great deal of information and show that the basic current map that I posted in the OP barely scratches the surface as far as the knowledge of wind, currents and other factors that could determine a route. For some reason this stuff has consumed me recently so thanks for the heads up on Jimmy Cornel's World Cruising Routes I will surely check it out.

[rodheadlee]

Great information, I didn't even think of going under Australia and New Zealand. Would a journey like this take an extremely long amount of time. I know that the Book of Mormon doesn't say that they stopped to pick up food at other places but I just wonder how much food storage would be needed in a scenario like this. I've heard it said that the boat would have made the journey but would their be any survivors? Those pilot charts have a great deal of information and show that the basic current map that I posted in the OP barely scratches the surface as far as the knowledge of wind, currents and other factors that could determine a route. For some reason this stuff has consumed me recently so thanks for the heads up on Jimmy Cornel's World Cruising Routes I will surely check it out.

This is a quicky estimate, it's about 18,000 miles to Central America, following the route I laid out and about 15,000 miles to Chile. At 5 mph , it's about 150 days or 5 months to Central America.

[poulsenll]

This is a quicky estimate, it's about 18,000 miles to Central America, following the route I laid out and about 15,000 miles to Chile. At 5 mph , it's about 150 days or 5 months to Central America.

Although we have no indication from the text about the possibility of stopping along the way for supplies, it is reasonable to suspect that they did so. Nephi's broken bow incident indicates that they did so on the journey from Jerusalem to Bountiful. However, the majority of such stops are not documented. Possibly because there were no faith promoting incidents related to such stops. Nephi. recording the journey some time after arrival in the New World is not likely to have thought it necessary to record such information that in his culture was an obvious necessity. From New Zealand to the coast of South America, the longest distance without obvious stopping places, is about 4000 miles, 30 days journey using Rod's estimate of speed. Once reaching this coast they could move up the coast until they arrived at the land of inheritence promised to them by God. The possibility of such landings along the coast may have been known to Joseph Smith and would account for the idea that they arrived in Chile at the 30th parallel. There is a good harbour at this location and it is possible that they stopped there before continuing on to where the Lord wanted them to end up. Because the Jaredites were in the Land Northward and as the text indicates, it was necessary for the Nephites to join the Jaredite records with their own records, it is unlikely that they would have remained at this location longer than necessary to reprovision and then move further north.

Larry P

[nosmelone]

Although we have no indication from the text about the possibility of stopping along the way for supplies, it is reasonable to suspect that they did so. Nephi's broken bow incident indicates that they did so on the journey from Jerusalem to Bountiful. However, the majority of such stops are not documented. Possibly because there were no faith promoting incidents related to such stops. Nephi. recording the journey some time after arrival in the New World is not likely to have thought it necessary to record such information that in his culture was an obvious necessity. From New Zealand to the coast of South America, the longest distance without obvious stopping places, is about 4000 miles, 30 days journey using Rod's estimate of speed. Once reaching this coast they could move up the coast until they arrived at the land of inheritence promised to them by God. The possibility of such landings along the coast may have been known to Joseph Smith and would account for the idea that they arrived in Chile at the 30th parallel. There is a good harbour at this location and it is possible that they stopped there before continuing on to where the Lord wanted them to end up. Because the Jaredites were in the Land Northward and as the text indicates, it was necessary for the Nephites to join the Jaredite records with their own records, it is unlikely that they would have remained at this location longer than necessary to reprovision and then move further north.

Larry P

I completely agree with you on that. We can almost guarentee that Lehi's journey in Arabia not only had many stops but possibly time for planting and harvesting crops. I say this because it took the 8 years to cross a distance not a whole lot longer then what it took our pioneers to do in three months or maybe double the distance of zions camp which took about 60 days. With that said I could completely see them making stops if available while taking their journey to the ocean. The lack of faith related incidents would account for this not being noted in the BOM. 150 days or 5 months is a very realistic timeframe by any account.