Polygamy as a woman

[Del March]

I don't understand why so many people seem upset by the early church practicing polygamy. I'm a woman, and I don't see that it's necessarily terrible. Quite the opposite in fact.

Here are some arguments I've seen used to say that polygamy was a bad thing, and my answer as a woman.

Some men may have abused it and used it for their own pleasure.

Isn't it exactly what happens today in monogamic marriages as well ? The GAs have been talking A LOT those last years about pornography and some husbands' "inappropriate demands" to their wives. In other words, some LDS husbands treat their wife badly. Changing from polygamy to monogamy hasn't changed anything on the matter. If anything, the burden might be easier for each woman if such men had several wives...

It is degrading for women to be in a polygamic marriage.

I don't think it is any more degrading than to be in an abusive marriage. Yes, as a very young wife, I was horrified at the idea of any other woman making love to my husband. But now the idea doesn't bother me that much anymore. In fact, it would bother my husband much more than me if the Prophet told him to get a second wife :-)

It is hard for women to be in a polygamic marriage.

Agreed. Any kind of marriage is difficult. But in a polygamic marriage, you can develop friendships with the other wives, and so create a feminine network support inside the family, something that is not at all available to single wives. If I have a marital problem, there aren't any women I'm supposed to go to for casual advice. Now, not all wives will be friends, agreed. But if all try to live in a Christ-like way, then good cooperation and support *is* possible.

Moreover, there are very specific advantages for a woman to be in a polygamic marriage.

For example, I was quite sick and very tired those last months, and I would have been very happy to have another woman at home to help me take care of my baby.

There's also the blessing of having more children around you than you produce yourself. We're trying to have a second baby right now but as long as it won't work, we'll have only one kid. There's nothing wrong with that, but I must admit I wouldn't mind having another baby or another kid in the house, even if it wasn't mine.

And of course, there's the ever-so-important blessings of being sealed in the temple. Those blessings are not just for the afterlife, they have a very real impact in earthly life too. And polygamic marriage, especially at the beginning of the church, *did* allow many women to get sealed who would have stayed single (and childless) otherwise. This is *very* important. (And by the way, I believe that God can undo a sealing, and redistribute polygamic wives in the afterlife, if He and them wish so. If a man entered into a polygamic marriage and didn't do his duty unto all of his wives -and I'm not talking just sex here-, God can take some or all of his wives away, and give them to other men who will be better husbands for them.)

And so on.

Now of course, you're all going to tell me that I'm having a rosy image of things, that polygamy doesn't look like that in real life. And I agree. Men (and women !!) have a strong tendency of turning exceptional opportunities into stumbling blocks. It's just like what happened with the Unified Order : it *is* a higher law, it *was* a better thing, but because people couldn't get rid of their greed and selfishness, it turned into a gruesome affair. Now I'm not saying that polygamy is a higher law, though I've heard it said before, but I do say that it could be a very good thing, if only men and women *all* tried to make it work. A hard thing, yes, but then everything of worth has a high price. I married late, and I know the anguish of being single and childless. If I could relieve the pain and anguish of one or more of my sisters by sharing my wonderful husband with them, I would do so gladly. But because it's impossible, too many of them will remain single all of their earthly life, which is a tragedy, no matter how well they decide to take it.

I do believe that polygamy can be a true blessing, and that God intended it to be that way. Men and women blew that chance away. But that doesn't mean that it was a bad thing to start with.

Del

[aznative]

Nice post. Thank you Del March. This just goes to show that polygamy was a good and just doctrine. It is unfortunate that some apostate groups could not accep[t that God had removed it from the earth and now abuse the virtues of said doctrine.

[Guest Lux]

A very brave post Del . . .

Yes, it's funny how people are completely shocked to find out that someone had more than one wife, yet it is perfectly acceptable for Hugh Hefner to live in a palace full of young, attractive women doing who knows what (I think we know).

Until . . .

Lux

[Tchild2]

Consenting adults should be allowed any consensual lifestyle they choose as long their choices do not infringe upon the rights of others.

The problem with Polygamy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not.

Because SEX and minors are involved, only ugly outcomes will be the fruits of polygamy. Just look South of Salt Lake to the border, to see what polygamy creates.

[RedSox]

t2t2,

How would you feel about applying your reasoning to homosexual parents?

The problem with Homesexualtiy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not.

I'm not assuming, but curious.

[John Russell]

Consenting adults should be allowed any consensual lifestyle they choose as long their choices do not infringe upon the rights of others.

This is a nice sentiment, but at what point does our behavior NOT infringe on others. Now, I know that you are specifically referring to one's ambiguous "rights", but if, for example, I am enthralled with pornography, does it only affect me? It will certainly affect how I view my wife, which also will affect how I view my children. But what about the support I render to a multi-billion dollar-a-year industry that exploits men, women, and children, and has numerous ties to organized crime? Does this, in turn, allow that industry to feed the aberrant behavior of sexual deviants? Does my private behavior affect others? Of course it does.

The problem with Polygamy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not.

Because SEX and minors are involved, only ugly outcomes will be the fruits of polygamy. Just look South of Salt Lake to the border, to see what polygamy creates.

Children are indoctrinated into whatever practice they experience. This is the nature of families. Sex and minors are involved in all family relationships with children, and monogamous homes are certainly not above reproach on the "ugly outcome" front. RedSox raised the question of homosexual relationships with children, and correctly asked if this doesn't do the same thing (of course, a child raised in a homosexual relationship will have very limited exposure to appropriate male or female parent role models, depending on the nature of the "parents"). In a loving polygamous relationship, presumably the role male/female role models would be presented, and possibly in a more cooperative and interactive format (as Del March so nicely pointed out). Home schooling would certainly be easier for those so inclined.

I am intrigued by the heinous portrayal of polygamous families, and the extent to which they are chased by the law, while homosexual marriages are paraded before th public as noble and above legal reproach (obviously within limits; nevertheless, it is certainly unwise to be critical in any public forum). Why the difference?

[Del March]

I see 2 different problems in your post. One is the children being raised in polygamic families. The other is very young girls getting married to polygamic men. Am I right ?

The problem with Polygamy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not.

I don't see what the problem is with children being raised in a loving, Christ-centered polygamic family. Sure, they will learn that it is OK for a man to have several wives, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily want to do the same later, whether they are boys or girls. Kids coming from abusive homes don't necessarily repeat the abuse later, and people who had a perfect family life as kids can turn into perfect jerks towards their spouses later.

But more to the point : what's wrong with teaching kids that it is OK to have a family with one man and several women ?? What is wrong with teaching them selfless love, support, responsibility, charity, and things like that ? What is wrong with teaching a little boy how hard and rewarding it is to take care of one wife and how much hardER and more rewarding it is to take care of several wives ? What is wrong with teaching a little girl to rejoice not only in her own posterity but also in the posterity of other women ? What is wrong with teaching her how to develop a true sisterhood with other women living in the same extended home as she does ? Honestly, if I managed to raise boys who would be able to take care of many women, physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually, I would be very proud. And if I managed to raise girls who would be able to find so much joy in family life, and who would have so much charity, that they would gladly share their husband and home with other worthy women, I would be very happy for her.

Because SEX and minors are involved, only ugly outcomes will be the fruits of polygamy.  Just look South of Salt Lake to the border, to see what polygamy creates.

I'm not sure what South of Salt Like City looks like, but I do know that those people are not practicing polygamy according to God, because God commanded people to stop contracting polygamic marriages more than a century ago.

Moreover, sex and minors should NEVER get involved together, in any kind of relationship. It's bad when it happens in a polygamic marriage, and it's just as bad when it happens in a monogamic marriage. But it doesn't have to happen in a polygamic marriage any more than in a monogamic one. And this of course includes forcing young girls and very young women into polygamic marriages.

I feel a need to repeat : I am NOT talking of polygamy according to MEN, but of polygamy according to GOD : a sacred relationship, sealed by God, in which one man cares for several women, and each woman cares for her husband and each of the other women, and where everyone, most of all, cares for the children. A relationship that is not based on sex, but on charity and respect.

Del

[Del March]

I am intrigued by the heinous portrayal of polygamous families, and the extent to which they are chased by the law, while homosexual marriages are paraded before th public as noble and above legal reproach (obviously within limits; nevertheless, it is certainly unwise to be critical in any public forum).  Why the difference?

I personally see several reasons for that.

The first one is what was prophesied about the last days : men call evil good, and good evil.

Another reason is that people keep being shown the worst examples of polygamy, and the best examples of homosexual families. In short, the media go : "look how bad polygamy can be for the kids", and "look how good homosexual families can be for the kids". I remember watching a nice report about a polygamic family who seemed to be having a good time, but when I tried to discuss it with my colleagues, they kept going back to other things they had seen or read that showed polygamy in a bad light. It's the opposite with homosexual families : when I try to discuss the possible effects of being raised by same-sex parents, people keep mentioning shows that seemed to demonstrate that those kids are fine.

And of course, there are the good old issues of jealousy and envy on the part of men, and disgust and pride on the part of women. Those feelings would not exist as strongly if people had the right kind of information about polygamy, but things being what they are, people can't help but being misguided. All they see is men having unlimited legal sex with several submissive women, which is as far away from the truth of polygamy *according to God* as I am from SLC (and I live in Central Europe...)

Del

[Tchild2]

Redsoxin04 wrote:

t2t2,

How would you feel about applying your reasoning to homosexual parents?

The problem with Homesexualtiy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not

Hey - I'm Tchild.

Anyway Redsox, your analagy makes no sense. How is it that children raised in heterosexual unions turn out to be homosexuals? Homosexual unions would in no way create a homosexual child.

So you CANNOT say that children living in a homosexual household would in some way become same sex oriented. Homosexual couples DO NOT as a practice, look for additional homosexual sex partners from their other homosexual friend's children....unlike what happens in polygamous relationships.

So Redsox - where do the alpha males in polygamous communities find their numerous additional partners if not from their immediate communities where the children have been indoctrinated from birth?

BTW - I was agreeing with the poster that in a perfect setting, two or more ADULTS agreeing to a polygamous union seems perfectly fine to me. Do you agree...or do you not?

[Tchild2]

John Russell Wrote:

This is a nice sentiment, but at what point does our behavior NOT infringe on others. Now, I know that you are specifically referring to one's ambiguous "rights", but if, for example, I am enthralled with pornography, does it only affect me? It will certainly affect how I view my wife, which also will affect how I view my children. But what about the support I render to a multi-billion dollar-a-year industry that exploits men, women, and children, and has numerous ties to organized crime? Does this, in turn, allow that industry to feed the aberrant behavior of sexual deviants? Does my private behavior affect others? Of course it does

Hey John - Do you understand that I was AGREEING with the poster that insomuch as those choosing polygamy as adults should have that right?

What is your opinion of that based on what the poster wrote, and not focusing on a tangent about rights. Do you agree with Polygamy in practice, yes or no?

[Tchild2]

Del March wrote:

I'm not sure what South of Salt Like City looks like, but I do know that those people are not practicing polygamy according to God, because God commanded people to stop contracting polygamic marriages more than a century ago.

Well Del March, who are you to state that those polygamists in Southern Utah are not practicing according to God? They believe it is from God. So they are wrong, and you are right?

I have seen the effects of Polygamy having lived in St. George & Sandy, UT and having worked in the construction industry where hundreds and hundreds of young age men are exploit....er gainfully employed.

When you see what polygamy does to people then you will understand what a vile scourge it really is.

[Del March]

Well Del March, who are you to state that those polygamists in Southern Utah are not practicing according to God?

I'm LDS

They believe it is from God.  So they are wrong, and you are right?

Basically, yes Isn't that one of the premises of this forum, that we all believe to be right, or at least more right than the others ?

When you see what polygamy does to people then you will understand what a vile scourge it really is.

Well no, not really, because as I said, I don't believe that those people are practicing polygamy in God's way. So it's quite natural to me that their kind of polygamy should make them miserable.

Del

[Tchild2]

Basically, yes

[John Russell]

TChild said:

Hey John - Do you understand that I was AGREEING with the poster that insomuch as those choosing polygamy as adults should have that right?

Well, I understood that you were agreeing that it was fine, as long as no children are involved, as you then proceeded to express rather intense reservations about the fate of children in such relationships. Your response seemed contradictory. And your responses still seem contradictory. You seem to be saying that it is all right between consenting adults, and at the same time you feel that it is evil. Is this a fair assessment of your position?

TChild said:

What is your opinion of that based on what the poster wrote, and not focusing on a tangent about rights. Do you agree with Polygamy in practice, yes or no?

I personally see nothing wrong with polygamy practiced in a Christ-centered way. I wouldn't be particularly keen on it personally, however. I've seen some seriously flawed polygamous families, but I've also seen plenty of flawed monogamous relationships (heterosexual and homosexual). In contrast, I also know people from polygamous relationships who are top-flight, and have only good things to say about their upbringing. You made an interesting comment, presumably to point out the degree of baseness to which polygamists have stooped:

So Redsox - where do the alpha males in polygamous communities find their numerous additional partners if not from their immediate communities where the children have been indoctrinated from birth?

But honestly, given the stigma and persecution attached to polygamous relationships, where else would you expect polygamists to find spouses, if not within the cloistered and safe circles in which they circulate? Were polygamy more widely accepted, as homosexual marriage is becoming, then those circles of potential spoues would certainly expand.

Finally, I am not sold on your statements about homosexual marriages and the children in them. Could you provide some references on sexual preferences of children raised in homosexual households? This is a difficult area to work in, because the sample size for study is very limited. This area also operates well inside the veil of political correctness, which makes it a difficult thing to undertake objectively. One statistic that has always intrigued me is the incidence of child sexual abuse among homosexual and heterosexual men. I have been told on many occasions that sexual abuse of children is overwhelmingly committed by heterosexual men -- 90-92% of reported cases having been committed by heterosexual men. However, the incidence of homosexuality among men is variously estimated at 3-7%. Thus, if 8-10% of child sexual abuse is committed by homosexual men, this would suggest that homosexual men are sexually abusing children at as much as 2-3 times the expected rate based on a random sample (3-7% of the men are committing 8-10% of the abuse). I'm not entirely comfortable with the statistics (or their interpretation) we are being provided about the role of homosexuality in our society.

[mnn727]

When you see what polygamy does to people then you will understand what a vile scourge it really is.

You've never seen polygamy as called for by God, the fact that you see current polygamy as "a vile scourge" proves that. Man usually screws up anything he tries to copy on his own.

[mnn727]

The thing that I don't understand, is that its perfectly all right for one male to get 3 or 5 or 20 women pregant and then vanish, yet a man that has 5 wives and takes care of them and their children is a criminal.

[Moxy]

When you see what polygamy does to people then you will understand what a vile scourge it really is.

You've never seen polygamy as called for by God, the fact that you see current polygamy as "a vile scourge" proves that. Man usually screws up anything he tries to copy on his own.

Get real, Polyagamy and the abuse's in Polygamy does not dicrimante between when it is so called legal and not legal in the so called eyes of God. In fact I would bet that abuse of all kinds were rampet during the early church. Do as I say or your out on the street. I control not only you but all of your property.....you are nothing more then cattle to me for my pleasure. I will rape your sister when she is of age. I will beat your mother if she gets on my nerves.....I can hear it now...disgusting, and a true sin, evil. Only murder is greater folks...only murder.

Those that support Polygamy will burn in the last days.

[Guest Lux]

Those that support Polygamy will burn in the last days.

I guess Abraham's burning too.

Until . . .

Lux

[Tchild2]

John Russell wrote:

Well, I understood that you were agreeing that it was fine, as long as no children are involved, as you then proceeded to express rather intense reservations about the fate of children in such relationships. Your response seemed contradictory. And your responses still seem contradictory. You seem to be saying that it is all right between consenting adults, and at the same time you feel that it is evil. Is this a fair assessment of your position

Considering polygamy as a lifestyle in a sort of theoretical and idealistic form, then yes, I agree that allowing polygamous unions between consenting adults seems more than reasonable. Society doesn't have enforceable laws for adults who have multiple sex partners outside of marriage, so if a number of adults wish to live together as a marriage, then what is so different...in theory at least?

Where I digress, is in the actual practice of polygamy outside of the idealisms it could work in; idealisms that really don't exist, but make for interesting speculations.

I personally see nothing wrong with polygamy practiced in a Christ-centered way.

How exactly would polygamy practiced in a "christ centered way", differ from what we see in Colorado City - Hilldale? Those polygamists attend church every week, read the BoM, pray, fast, and believe 100% that they ARE living polygamy as commanded by God. They think YOU (modern day Mormons) are the apostates.

Polygamy as we see it in America today was created by early mormon thinking and belief. Watching the Colorado city folk is is like peering through a looking glass of time, exactly how it was when it was practiced in the early church prior to its revocation circa 1900. There would be no difference between what you discern as a corrupt form of Polygamy as you see today at the Utah border towns, and this imagined Christ centered way of practicing polygamy. What you see in Colorado City IS mormonism circa 1900. Human nature is working exactly the same today, just like it did of yesteryear.

Surely, there are polygamous marriages that work very well. There are many women who feel that polygamy is a viable and beneficial alternative to TM. Perhaps polygamy would work better if the religious components were removed and it existed in a much more secular society. I believe that the coupling of polygamy and religion is what makes it such a vile scourge (I like saying that). If polygamy were practiced by those recognizing some sort of practical utility of it creating a better society, rather than it being some sort of holy dictate, it might work....if you could get past the very normal and human emotions that polygamy complety mucks with for most humans.

[Jade]

Moreover, there are very specific advantages for a woman to be in a polygamic marriage.

(Del March)

Yes, it's true that there *might* be some advantages at least in a certain way. But that surely depends on what a woman EXPECTS from a marriage.

If I would ONLY watch out for ADVANTAGES I would marry a very rich man. Then I wouldn't have to worry about money and I could employ a cleaning lady.

BUT I expect something different from my marriage: companionship and a deep connection to a man I love very much.

But how can you keep a deep connection when 20 other women want also some attention? What if you have a conflict with your husband? Do you want to let your sister wives know about very personal problems?

Can you imagine your husband kissing one of your sister wives while you and the other 18 are watching it and it wouldn't matter to you? You wouldn't get jealous? You wouldn't think "Oh why is he kissing now her and not me. Does he love her more? Is she more sexy?"

I'm sorry but I can't understand the advantages of polygamic marriage when you really love your husband. Only if I wouldn't love him very much......then maybe I wouldn't care........but is it then a good marriage????? Isn't love important?

[Calm]

Polygamy as we see it in America today was created by early mormon thinking and belief.

What is being ignored here is the huge factor that polygamy is not only illegal, but considered immoral by the larger society.

Any generalizations about the practice cannot be applied to a situation where this was not occuring. It is too big of a variable.

[Del March]

In fact I would bet that abuse of all kinds were rampet during the early church.  Do as I say or your out on the street.  I control not only you but all of  your property.....you are nothing more then cattle to me for my pleasure.  I will rape your sister when she is of age.  I will beat your mother if she gets on my nerves.....

In fact, women in the early church were generally better treated than any other women in the rest of the USA. They had equal rights to those of men, including the right to vote. So you can bet whatever you want, but be ready to lose.

Those that support Polygamy will burn in the last days.

I wonder how that works, if some of our earliest prophets (Abraham, Jacob...) were evil people who will burn in Hell. Does that mean we will all burn in Hell too for believing in their words ?

Del

[Del March]

But how can you keep a deep connection when 20 other women want also some attention?

I know there were a few cases of men having a great number of wives (Brigham Young for example, of course). But that doesn't mean it's typical of polygamy. 20 is way too big a number for a realistic polygamous marriage (not least of all because the man is supposed to financially support all of those women and their children)

What if you have a conflict with your husband? Do you want to let your sister wives know about very personal problems?

At least, you have a *choice*. Things being as they are now, you don't have a choice but to keep everything for yourself.Sometimes, I really wish I could just *talk* to my mom or my sister.

Can you imagine your husband kissing one of your sister wives while you and the other 18 are watching it and it wouldn't matter to you? You wouldn't get jealous? You wouldn't think "Oh why is he kissing now her and not me. Does he love her more? Is she more sexy?"

That's insecurity, not love. True love doesn't need to be reassured all the time. True love isn't jealous or possessive. And anyway, what does it matter if she is indeed more sexy ? This isn't a competition, especially not on something as irrelevant as sexiness.

I'm sorry but I can't understand the advantages of polygamic marriage when you really love your husband. Only if I wouldn't love him very much......then maybe I wouldn't care........but is it then a good marriage????? Isn't love important?

On the contrary : love should be the basis of a polygamous marriage. Marital love for your husband *and* sisterly love for the other women. 2 types of love, that both draw you closer to Charity, the True Love.

And by the way, I do love my husband very very much, and he told me to tell you that he feels very very much loved

Del

[Calm]

Del, I see things the same way as you do. Reading some of the comments of the women involved in it, including my ancestors, it appears to me that the possibility for personal growth and true, deep, intimate and infinite friendship was extremely great in many polygamous marriages. I can't think of any better place to practice unselfishness and true, Christlike love than in a polygamous relationship (some may be as good, but none better).

Having grown up with this in front of me, I have never had an issue with polygamy, even after marriage. One of the reasons is my total faith in my relationship with my husband. Another is that I don't look on love as something finite. It is not only an infinite resource, but one that becomes more available the more it is used. I believe in a celestial marriage that the love of a husband may grow for all wives as he grows in love for one of them. My husband will not love me less just because he loves another. I can see this happening in situations where someone is forced to choose, such as the present day monogamy only marriages, but if it is accepted and the person doesn't have the mindset that he/she can only love one person, the possibility of truly loving more than one person at a time is there.

I think the same type of relationship could exist for one wife and multiple husbands, so it is not something that I see as can only happen in one way, btw. It is a capacity for greater love, unselfishness, true charity (in that there is no jealousy or envy or self doubt) that exists in any child of God, whether man or woman.

Back to history. The typical polygamous marriage by far involved one man and two women. It was the rare marriage that was over five and those were mostly among the wealthy. Generally those who had more did not have the same type of marriage with all of the wives as many of those wives had actually come seeking the husbands and asking to be taken under their protection. The image of the lustful husband bringing home the young lovely who then lords it over the other wives may have happened, but I haven't come across any occurences of it yet in any of the journals entries I have read. OTOH I have read many where the wife alone or the wife and husband together seek out the additional wife.

[Del March]

Del, I see things the same way as you do.

Thank you Calmoriah, for your supporting post ! It's nice to know that I'm not the only one thinking that way But I do think it takes quite a lot of thinking and faith to start to see how good righteous polygamy can be. I used to think that it was a horrible thing, but because I didn't rebel against it, and I let the Spirit work on me, I can now see it in a much better light. Still I can see that the world and even the church isn't the right kind of place where to live such a higher kind of love. If the Prophet has to keep scolding the Priesthood holders because so many of them still can't treat their only wife properly, there's no way I would entrust them with more than one wife Polygamy was bound to fail, I guess, just like the Unified Order did. But I can't help thinking sometimes of how good it would be to have a righteous, worthy, loving sister-wife. I guess I'm missing my sister too much

Del