Polygamy as a woman

[Calm]

Amen to that. There are some things that can only be shared with another woman. It would be nice to have that sort of relationship with one.

I agree that I don't see polygamy as being able to function even in the Church these days. When the Church was isolated there were less naysayers in their faces on a daily basis. It's hard enough to live the gospel these days in the relatively uncomplicated and 'mainstream' way we do, having to do so with the added complication of being expected to explain and justify one's intimate relationships to total strangers (if we have to do it for our current practices of WoW and temple work, we will definitely have to do it for something like this) as well as having to live with the condescending comments such as took place in another thread about a young woman choosing to waste her life as a homemaker would add an additional burden that I'm not looking forward too. In some ways, I think this type of mild, but insidious negativity is harder to deal with than the outright persecution. At least it's harder to realize what effect it is actually having on creating self-doubt and shame.

I also don't see the reason for it (or at least the one I believe was it--to establish a covenant and peculiar people--peculiar in the original definition) existing at this time as the Church has its strong foundation. Perhaps there will be a time to determine the wheat and the tares, but I'm thinking there's enough contrast between the world and the gospel at the moment that just a little more 'progress' will provide all the differentiation we need.

[Del March]

having to live with the condescending comments such as took place in another thread about a young woman choosing to waste her life as a homemaker

Huh, I missed that one. Too bad, I could have given my own example, of how I went from a high-salary employment to homemaker voluntarily, and why I'm happy with it But it's true that very few of my colleagues understood me. And even in the church, people kept (and keep) asking me what job I intend to look for, now that I've moved to my husband's country. But I already have the only job I want, and it's full-time for women like me (To put it simply, I wanted to be an astronaut, as a kid, not a mom and wife, so I never trained for it...)

As for polygamy : just wait for the Millenium, I'm pretty sure polygamy will come back into practice then.

Del

[t2t2]

Yes, as a very young wife, I was horrified at the idea of any other woman making love to my husband. But now the idea doesn't bother me that much anymore.

This is sad to me. That's really all I can say. I hope I go to the grave passionate about my wife to the point where the thought of someone else sharing her physically is enough to make me retch.

I do believe that polygamy can be a true blessing, and that God intended it to be that way. Men and women blew that chance away. But that doesn't mean that it was a bad thing to start with.

I've seen all these arguments before. "Gee...how nice would it be to have someone else around to help me cook and clean and raise the kids!" To which I reply - how about your HUSBAND????

Honestly - a marriage isn't about "help meet". Not to me it isn't. I'm not in an arranged marraige. My parents didn't pick someone who was the best match for me financially or who was someone who would do the things around the house for me. And my wife didn't pick me because of my income or my stunningly good looks or that I would be a good father. We picked each other because we were/are madly in love with each other. We've married/dated for 6 years now (dated for 5 - married last november). And in that time we haven't spent more than 24 hours apart. There's just no one on the planet I would rather spend time with.

The thought of someone else touching her and - even worse...loving her and seeing her return that love - would rip my heart out. I cannot share that with another man. I can share it with a father and brother. I can share it with our puppies and with children when they come. But another man? No way. Nor could she share me. Yet in polygamy we would share. She would have to lay in bed at night knowing I am next door, or down the hall, in bed with another woman. And she would wither and fail...or the love would. Could I turn the light off at night, having read her 30 minutes of Harry Potter to help her fall asleep....and then the next night do the same for another woman? And then another? Could I go pumkin shopping with another, spend the day taking pictures and laughing and stealing kisses on top of a hay bail and ending the evening at a swank restaurant sipping champagne and eating something made of chocolate that is WAY to rich for me.....all the while knowing that another woman is back home?

No way. No way, no way, no way. And imagine how many women had to put up with this. Loving a man...who loved many women.

If all else was proven about the BOM, about Joseph, about the LDS version of God - I would still reject polygamy. I could say "You're all right...the BOM is true and somewhere back in the recesses of this church Joseph was a prophet of God" and then I would look at polygamy and still turn away. Because it is not truth. It is a horrible, horrible thing. We are taught to listen to our hearts and minds. And if you love your husband or wife as much as I love mine....your heart WILL reject the idea of her/him falling asleep down the hall in the arms of another.

[wjwalsh]

Can you imagine your husband kissing one of your sister wives while you and the other 18 are watching it and it wouldn't matter to you? You wouldn't get jealous?

Exactly, and this is why you should not have more than one child either. I have four of them at the moment and they are always getting jealous when one has something the other doesn't. If I pay attention to one daughter, then another gets jealous. And to tell you the truth, I just get sick of telling them they should love their syblings as they love themselves. For that matter, if I pay attention to any of my children the dog gets jealous as well.

One child or pet [take your pick] is the only way to go!

WJW

[t2t2]

You should also not have sex with more than 1 child or puppy. Since it's all the same. Or sit out on the porch late at night talking about dreams and watching the moon go down with more than 1 child or puppy.

Are you saying it's even remotely the same?

[wjwalsh]

I also don't see the reason for it (or at least the one I believe was it--to establish a covenant and peculiar people--peculiar in the original definition) existing at this time as the Church has its strong foundation.

The reason for polygamy was to have more babies. More wives = more babies. And as far as the other way around, a man with 7 wives tends to have more babies than a woman with 7 husbands (everything else being equal).

That is one thing I am sure glad about modern Mormons: While they don't hate babies per say, they at least don't like them well enough to have them. Here is an example of the change. From 1900 to 1980, there were dozens of statements against birth control, including two official statements from the First Presidency. Most people know about the one under McKay, but there was an earlier one where Joseph F. Smith endorsed full-length articles on birth control written by every apostle in the church in a Church magzine. Every apostle wrote a seprate and full length article.

But now it is OK. A few weeks back, my ward's relief society even had a woman come in and teach them about new birth control methods at a Church function. It is worth noting that today, with the greatest advances in health care, Mormon women have less babies today than they have ever had!

One child or one pet! That's our motto.

WJW

[John Russell]

Calm down, t2t2. You said:

We've married/dated for 6 years now (dated for 5 - married last november). And in that time we haven't spent more than 24 hours apart. There's just no one on the planet I would rather spend time with.

I'm glad you are attracted to your wife, but your comments worry me a bit. Our daughter married a young man almost a year ago, and the two of them are rarely ever separate, and they are always proud to point that out. It's a nice sentiment, but when our daughter comes to our home to visit, and her husband is calling her on her cell phone every 10-15 minutes during our visit because he misses her, it does become tiresome (frankly, it borders on pathological). Don't do that to your in-laws....

Interestingly, there is far more to a mature relationship than simply being emotionally bound to someone else to the extent that you cannot bear to be apart. My wife and I have been married for 24 years, and have had a wonderful relationship. Many things happen over time to alter how we feel about one another, and how those alterations take place depend in large measure on us. I have spent prolonged periods away from her, but it has not adversely affected our relationship. The entry of children into a relationship changes how husbands and wives interact. I've seen marriages gutted by children when one or both spouses was unable to allow another person into their relationship. In contrast, children can bind marriages more tightly together. I have no desire to be a part of a polygamous relationship, but I have known families, and have read accounts, where wives (and husbands, but I don't think that that is the point of this thread) have blossomed in polygamous homes. I suspect that casting a wider net of love and acceptance, at the expense of one's own desires, may be highly therapeutic. It would certainly be difficult. I don;t think anyone has argued on this thread that polygamy is particularly easy, but then neither is a strong monogamous relationship.

[Guest The Headless Laban]

It is degrading for women to be in a polygamic marriage.

I don't think it is any more degrading than to be in an abusive marriage.

What a great argument for polygamy. It's no worse than being in an abusive marriage. That is so awesome. Polygamy must really have come from god since it is no worse than being in an abusive relationship. Gee, can you set the bar any lower for polygamy?

[wjwalsh]

Are you saying it's even remotely the same?

Yes, through my sarcasm, I am saying the ability to love more than one wife is exactly the same as the ability to love more than one child. Further, it is all about loving God with all that you have, and letting your love for others (including your spouse, children) be only a manifestation of your love for God.

I have rarely discussed/debated polygamy/birth control (they always seem to go hand in hand) and have it fail to come out that rejection of polygamy and acceptance of birth control was in fact a lack of love for God.

WJW

[t2t2]

It's a nice sentiment, but when our daughter comes to our home to visit, and her husband is calling her on her cell phone every 10-15 minutes during our visit because he misses her, it does become tiresome (frankly, it borders on pathological). Don't do that to your in-laws....

Trust me! We often go the whole day without communicating. Email making it easier - that's rare...but I'd imagine it's rare for any couple with email to not talk during the day. We go out by ourselves.

I call her co-dependent all the time since she can't fall asleep without me, which gets me dark stares and mock-angry commentary. But I don't see any part that's unhealthy. Again - this has gone on a long time. We fight. We recover. We've been through some major trauma. We recover. We're happy.

Interestingly, there is far more to a mature relationship than simply being emotionally bound to someone else to the extent that you cannot bear to be apart.

I agree. It is not so simple to either of us. Let me point out that I'm 32 and she's 37. We're not kids straight out of college. We've seen a bit of life.

It would certainly be difficult. I don;t think anyone has argued on this thread that polygamy is particularly easy, but then neither is a strong monogamous relationship.

The point - yours or mine - is not a question of ease.

My relationship is a relative breeze in some ways. Serious work in others. Some of the things we do for each other would be considered "hard" to other couples. And some of the things we don't do might be looked at as necessary to others. That's not the point.

Yes, children are tough. And great. Haven't had any yet. Trying. Will see. But in the end - all you have will be each other. When they're grown and gone, when you're both in your 70s and 80s. There will just be two people who love each other. It's something, once again, I cannot imagine with 3.

[wjwalsh]

I can't think of any better place to practice unselfishness and true, Christlike love than in a polygamous relationship (some may be as good, but none better).

Well said. Until I actually got married, I did not truly realize that marriage itself would give you more opportunity to develop Christ-like character than anything else. How much more aware of my flaws I am because of my wife and children. How much more opportunity i have to improve myself because i am married (infinite). I would think any person selfless enough to succeed in polygamy must be the most Christlike person I can imagine.

WJW

[t2t2]

I have rarely discussed/debated polygamy/birth control (they always seem to go hand in hand) and have it fail to come out that rejection of polygamy and acceptance of birth control was in fact a lack of love for God.

wow. How in the world is birth control related to polygamy? I'm curious.

And thanks for suggesting that my love for God is somehow less than your own simply because I find the concept of sharing my spouse detestable.

So share your thoughts on birth control. I'm intrigued. Sort of. Well, not really. But go ahead.

[wjwalsh]

The problem with Polygamy is that CHILDREN are indoctrinated into the practice at an early age, before they can or are able to consciously choose whether it is a lifelong practice they wish to participate in or not.

Because SEX and minors are involved, only ugly outcomes will be the fruits of polygamy. Just look South of Salt Lake to the border, to see what polygamy creates.

As someone else said, everybody is indoctrinated into the beliefs of their parents--good and bad. Liberal feminists indoctrinate their children as much as conservative traditionalists. The only problem is when children can't choose their own way when they come of age.

If someone is forced into a relationship, it makes no difference whether it is polygamous or monogamous, and labeling the problem as "polygamy" is wrong, biased, and only clouds the issue. The real issue is taking a person's freedom away. For example, Kingston whipping his daughter for refusing to acknowledge her uncle as her husband. That was wrong, the man should have faced a firing squad, but it had nothing to do with polygamy.

WJW

[t2t2]

I would think any person selfless enough to succeed in polygamy must be the most Christlike person I can imagine.

It's amazing what a thin line we find between "selfless" and "doormat". We'll each draw it in our own place.

I don't think God wants us to give up our self. Don't you want more than that for your own kids? I can't believe God wants less for us.

[wjwalsh]

wow. How in the world is birth control related to polygamy? I'm curious.

As I said, polygamy is about having babies. Birth control is about not having babies. They are both practices based on the same doctrines regarding the importance of children. The doctrines can be summarized as helping the spirit children of God come to earth in loving families where they will have the best opportunity for happiness. All objections to polygamy and espousal of birth control are related to rejection of these doctrines.

For example, because I am a Protestant, I believe human souls are created ex nihilo at conception; and thus, I do not believe there are spirits in heaven waiting for bodies. Or, I am a Mormon, but I do not believe that if I choose not to have children this means a spirit child of God will be born outside the Church. Brigham Young said this is what happenned, but I don't believe it.

And so on. I don't really care whether a person believes Mormon doctrine or not. But issues surrounding polygamy/birth control are always related to what one believes about such issues.

For example, I am a Mormon. I know that there is a spirit child waiting to come down into my family, but because it would be inconvenient to have this child, I choose for her to be born in Saudi Arabia where she will enjoy no human rights and be sold as a sexual slave at the age of 14.

You don't find too many people like that. Their rejection is based upon an associated rejection of underlying doctrine.

WJW

[wjwalsh]

I don't think God wants us to give up our self. Don't you want more than that for your own kids? I can't believe God wants less for us.

I think God wants us to love him with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength and have no desires outside of his will.

I want nothing more for my kids than that. I trust that God knows what he is doing.

WJW

[t2t2]

As I said, polygamy is about having babies.

The logical extension is that "marriage" is about babies since polygamy is just a form of marriage. I reject that. I think most would reject that. Reproducing can be a part of marraige. A great and important one. But to say that the reason for any form of marriage, plural or otherwise, is to create babies is, once again - sad.

I think God wants us to love him with all of our heart, might, mind, and strength and have no desires outside of his will.

I think God wants us to grow, learn, develop and eventually be *independent* of his will. I would want the same thing for my kids. I don't believe God wants to create God clones. I think he created us all differently so that in the end we populate this life and the next with our diversity - not our robotic obedience. As such - I cannot see God wanting us to give up that which our heart tells us is good and true, just because someone else says it is not so.

[Calm]

We are taught to listen to our hearts and minds. And if you love your husband or wife as much as I love mine....your heart WILL reject the idea of her/him falling asleep down the hall in the arms of another.

So you think that all marriages should be clones of your own--inspite of the fact that there is a huge variation in personality and personal needs in men and women all over the world. The only truly good marriage will be one like yours. Can you tell me how this is different from saying the only good country, church, school, family, race, etc. is one like yours?

I love my husband, I think he's one of the most wonderful people in the world and I believe I would be able to be happy with the idea that someone else could know this in the same way that I do. I have been made both more complete and more independent by my relationship with him. If someone else could benefit from his love and wisdom and even more, if he could benefit from someone else, I would hope that my first and most common response would be gratitude and an understanding that by providing new areas of personal growth for both him and myself, we are actually expanding our relationship, not limiting it---much like we did when we brought in children into our home, either our own or others in need.

I suppose this attitude could be compared to desiring to keep a marvelous dessert all to one's self as opposed to thinking, when tasting the first bite, of all the others you'd like to experience the delight with. In one sense, the person consumes the dessert thinking only of the need to have it as much of it to himself while the other adds to their enjoyment by watching the responses and delight of others.

FYI, I do believe that I would prefer a polygamous relationship with at most two other wives. This is not because I think this should be the limit, I have seen women who delight so much in other women's company, that they might benefit in more sister-wives' relationships, but I tend to desire very close, but very few and too many people around would seem crowded to me.

And it would need to be not just any woman. It would have to be a woman as relaxed as I am about certain territorial and privacy issues as well as one who did not take offense easy, was emotionally mature, was educated or desiring to be and had some deep shared interests with me so that there could be shared common experiences rather than living more or less independent lives/households from each other as some polygamous households did.

------

The issue of help with children, cleaning etc. would be a side benefit. Certainly there is just as much chance as it being increased because of the other wife's needs as it's being decreased. The primary issue is being able to develop an extraordinary relationship. There is a reason why they chose the term "sister-wife". It exemplifies the ideal relationship between two women in a polygamous relationship.

This is not to say I think polygamy is ideal for everyone. I don't think it is for anyone if it is illegal first of all. If legalized, I think it should be limited to very few, most should be older adults who understand the implications completely before getting into the situation.

[Calm]

As such - I cannot see God wanting us to give up that which our heart tells us is good and true, just because someone else says it is not so.

Are you not doing this to those of us who think that polygamy could be something good and true?

[t2t2]

The only truly good marriage will be one like yours. Can you tell me how this is different from saying the only good country, church, school, family, race, etc. is one like yours?

I don't want people to have my relationship. I want them to be happy. It is my personal opinion that such is not possible in polygamous relationships without sacrificing a piece of yourself. An important piece.

Are you not doing this to those of us who think that polygamy could be something good and true?

No. I am offering my opinion. I am not a prophet saying that polygamy is essential to your salvation. Nor am I a church leader saying that since polygamous marraiges have been performed there must be polygamy in the next life and therefor - polygamy must needs be a part of your belief in the church.

What I am suggesting is that if you are OK sitting back envisioning another person experiencing your wife/husband the way you do...well, it's sad to me. I don't believe two people who are truly passionate about each other would be even remotely OK by this. The only place on Earth you find a sizable portion of women who think this is fine and dandy is within the ranks of the LDS church. And it's only so there because they really have no choice. If you believe the church is true you must believe in polygamy. You can't be in the middle. If you lean anti-polygamy, oddds are you leave the church. If you are the type that nothing will make you leave the church - well - you have only the option of accepting polygamy and somehow making yourself Ok with it. Or some few might be Ok with it from the beginning. But I doubt there are many like that. I asked every single LDS girl I ever dated about this and not a one wanted to talk about it. It made some mad. Now...it's a good ten years later and I would bet most, if not all, have someone, magically, changed their minds since they are all still active (to my knowledge). But I remember how they were before. When the very topic raised their hackles. THAT's the truth of their hearts - regardless of what they've conditioned themselves to feel today.

[Calm]

don't believe two people who are truly passionate about each other would be even remotely OK by this.

This and the fact that you think only LDS women are okay with this demonstrates IMO both a limited imagination (can't conceive that someone could find something more fulfilling than you do--the condescending attitude that I mentioned before, the assumption that polygamy is inherently inferior to your personal choice) and a limited experience in discussing this with nonLDS women worldwide.

[Calm]

THAT's the truth of their hearts - regardless of what they've conditioned themselves to feel today.

Mindreading now are you?

I am not the only one I know of who have been comfortable with the idea of polygamy all of their lives. However, discussing it is not something I've always been comfortable with because of the typical condescending attitude that is manifested by comments like yours that one must not be want or be capable of a passionate connection with one's husband if one can conceive of being happy in a polygamous marriage.

Try thinking outside of the box.

[t2t2]

Try thinking outside of the box.

Ahhh....the irony. Which of us is in the box truly IS the question. No?

This and the fact that you think only LDS women are okay with this demonstrates IMO both a limited imagination (can't conceive that someone could find something more fulfilling than you do--the condescending attitude that I mentioned before, the assumption that polygamy is inherently inferior to your personal choice) and a limited experience in discussing this with nonLDS women worldwide.

I've never been accused of having a limited imagination. In fact, that's probably the reason my parents think I'm no longer Mormon. I have too active an imagination!

I can conceive of many ways of loving another. Some, yes, I consider to be a better, deeper form of love. We all do this. Mormons can't believe a man can truly and passionately love another man and have God smile on it. Do you lack imagination? No...you simply are bound by your beliefs. In my case, I am not bound by beliefs since I am open to truth everywhere. I am bound by my heart, sure. We all are to some extent.

Do I have limited experience talking to women of all faiths? What's limited to you?

Let's be honest here. If you were to poll 10,000 non-lds women in this country and ask "Would you be OK with your husband marrying another woman and you becomming part of a polygamous marriage?" - what percentage do YOU think would answer "yes"?

[wjwalsh]

The logical extension is that "marriage" is about babies since polygamy is just a form of marriage. I reject that. I think most would reject that.

Exactly. Marriage is about babies. Even the Mormon view of heaven is about babies. Exalted humans become Gods. The difference between Gods and angels is that Gods can have babies in heaven and angels can't. Eternal increase, mutiply and replenish the earth, etc. are all the highest, most sacred Mormon doctrines.

As I said, a rejection of polygamy boils down to certain other core doctrines. You reject those core doctrines and thus it is no surprise you reject polygamy.

WJW

[John Russell]

t2t2 said:

The only place on Earth you find a sizable portion of women who think this is fine and dandy is within the ranks of the LDS church.

Are you familiar with Islam? Did you know that in Islamic countries polygamy is legal? And that in these countries there are women in sizable numbers who are "fine and dandy" with it? And that the number of women in Islam substantially dwarfs the number of LDS women? Do you honestly believe what you said, or was your statement just some frustrated venting?