ELF1024 Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Has anyone read the book Love Wins by Rob Bell?It appears that the book is questioning the popular ideas of the Christian Hell. I am wonder how it falls in line with the LDS teachings.
SilverKnight Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Here's the Yahoo story on it:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110324/ap_on_re/us_rel_hell__noIn the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell."This is misguided and toxic and ultimately subverts the contagious spread of Jesus' message of love, peace, forgiveness and joy that our world desperately needs to hear," he writes in the book.This philosophical debate is not as much of a problem for LDS, since we don't believe in hell in the traditional christian sense.I think for any Christian who sits down and honestly evaluates their beliefs, Hell is the first thing to go into the trash bin.
The Nehor Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 "In the long run the answer to all those who object to the doctrine of Hell is itself a question: 'What are you asking God to do?' To wipe out their past sins and, at all costs, to give them a fresh start, smoothing every difficulty and offering every miraculous help? But He has done so, on Calvary. To forgive them? They will not be forgiven. To leave them alone? Alas, I am afraid that is what he does."-C.S. LewisThe LDS concept is admittedly different as the torments of hell will drive all but the most hardened to repent.I do dislike LDS attempts to water down the concept of hell. Personally I wish we'd stop calling it Spirit Prison so much and give use it's original name more. Both terminologies have uses but our Lord's descriptions of hell are accurate in describing it.Hell is healthy to fear among those who love God in the same way that divorce is healthy to fear if you love your spouse. Not to be fixated on but to accept. When you realize we all deserve hell it has its best effect: leading us to the Messiah pleading for mercy.Most objections to hell come on the grounds of 'other people'. I try not to spend much time thinking about that. Imagining hell for people like Hitler or the guy who tried to use me or those who seek to destroy the work of God is too gleefully hellish and focusing on those I love going to hell is too painful and I can do little about it. Imagining me going to hell is believable, understandable, and something I can do something about (through Christ of course).
DH Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 Hell = spending eternity in stake priesthood leadership meeting(ducking!)
lazarus Posted March 24, 2011 Posted March 24, 2011 It is amazing to see the uproar this is causing in the evangelical community. Some folks are really showing their lack of understanding of Christianity, if you ask me. Here is another story of a man who lost his job as a pastor for questioning the concept of hell:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42248810/ns/us_news-life/
Jeff K. Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Hell will be self imposed I think. Another statement that sometimes provides a bit of relative nuance... Hell is when the person you are meets the person you could have been. I like to think regret is the appetizer for hell.
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Hell will be self imposed I think. Another statement that sometimes provides a bit of relative nuance... Hell is when the person you are meets the person you could have been. I like to think regret is the appetizer for hell.I doubt this is the case. Basically if you want out you can get out. Regret is too close to repentance to allow anyone to stay in hell for long.
Jeff K. Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Regret is the taste in your mouth if you don't repent.
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Regret is the taste in your mouth if you don't repent.But you can always repent your way out of hell. Most of humanity will.
Jeff K. Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 But to know the full glory you could have received and that glory being denied you.... would that not be hell?
The Nehor Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 But to know the full glory you could have received and that glory being denied you.... would that not be hell?I don't know. I suspect it might but really, I expect those in Telestial and Terrestrial glories are, for the most part, happy and joyful.I assumed we were talking about real hell (spirit prison/outer darkness)
Jeff K. Posted March 25, 2011 Posted March 25, 2011 Hard to imagine. I think we will have joy, and I think we will choose the joy we are most able to endure. For now it is all speculation on my part.
Steadfast Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 LDS believe in hell. It can mean spirit prison or outer darkness.Outer darkness is where Satan and his fallen souls (those who were cast out of heaven) will be relegated. I imagine it won't be too pleasant being around them. But I don't think that most people who live on this Earth will end up there. Mostly, just the murderers will end up in outer darkness with Satan.
The Nehor Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Outer darkness is where Satan and his fallen souls (those who were cast out of heaven) will be relegated. I imagine it won't be too pleasant being around them. But I don't think that most people who live on this Earth will end up there. Mostly, just the murderers will end up in outer darkness with Satan.No, murder won't get you there. You have to deny the Holy Ghost. At the Last Day knowing what Jesus is offering and that he is willing to give you joy you have to still hate Him and the Plan so much that you choose hell willingly. A choice to sink down to a kind of sub-person like devils have.
dirtius maximus Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 No, murder won't get you there. You have to deny the Holy Ghost. The Doctrine and Covenants seems to indicate otherwise. Murderers are not mentioned in Section 76 in the verses about the lowest Kingdom of Heaven. In another section of the Doctrine and Covenants murder (I believe the phrase shedding of innocent blood) is called an unpardonable sin or rather that there is no forgiveness.But as for the notion of Hell as seeing what you "could have" been, seems an unworkable notion in the LDS Gospel. As I understand the Gospel, God knows all things, He knows where we will end up, so how can there be a "what you could have done" when what we do is already known?
The Nehor Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 The Doctrine and Covenants seems to indicate otherwise. Murderers are not mentioned in Section 76 in the verses about the lowest Kingdom of Heaven.Think they go there anyways. There is forgiveness. It's very hard to get (per the Book of Mormon) but can be gotten.In another section of the Doctrine and Covenants murder (I believe the phrase shedding of innocent blood) is called an unpardonable sin or rather that there is no forgiveness.Yes and only one person in the history of the earth had innocent blood. To deny the Holy Ghost is to consent to the murder of Christ.But as for the notion of Hell as seeing what you "could have" been, seems an unworkable notion in the LDS Gospel. As I understand the Gospel, God knows all things, He knows where we will end up, so how can there be a "what you could have done" when what we do is already known?Because we could have done differently. I don't see omniscience being incompatible with free will.
ELF1024 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 The Doctrine and Covenants seems to indicate otherwise. Murderers are not mentioned in Section 76 in the verses about the lowest Kingdom of Heaven. In another section of the Doctrine and Covenants murder (I believe the phrase shedding of innocent blood) is called an unpardonable sin or rather that there is no forgiveness.But as for the notion of Hell as seeing what you "could have" been, seems an unworkable notion in the LDS Gospel. As I understand the Gospel, God knows all things, He knows where we will end up, so how can there be a "what you could have done" when what we do is already known?There is no forgiveness for murder in this life. It is my understanding, however I don't have a reference to back it up; that a murder may get forgiveness at the time of the final judgement, however I would assume it is unlikely.God knows all things, He knows where we will end up:We do not believe in pre-destination. While each and everyone of us has the potential to do great things, we still have free will and can reject those things we are capable of. If God truely knew every single choice we would make, then why have this Earth life at all?If you have kids, you know your kids well enough to know the basics of what choices they are "likely" to make; and which choices they are "not likely" to make. I assume God knows us infinately better, but at the same time, we can still suprise him with our application of free will.
Libs Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Has anyone read the book Love Wins by Rob Bell?It appears that the book is questioning the popular ideas of the Christian Hell. I am wonder how it falls in line with the LDS teachings.I am reading this book and really enjoying it. He addresses one of the questions that always bothered me, about Christian belief, that unsaved people (those who did not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior) even if they were very good people, would suffer eternally in a horrible flaming hell. How could it be considered "justice" to suffer eternally for sins that were committed in a relatively short period of time? That never made sense to me and seemed completely "unjust". Considering the attributes of God (including his supreme justice) it doesn't make sense, at all. Bell lays out the attributes of God (Mighty, Powerful, Loving, Unchanging, full of Grace, etc) and points to 1 Timothy 2, which claims that God wants ALL to come to a knowledge of truth...and then asks, "Does God get what God wants?" It is Bell's believe that God certainly has the power to bring us all unto the truth.He then goes on to say that heaven will actually be a perfect earth, with all of God's qualities and goodness in full operation. (I think this is LDS belief, yes?)It's a very good read. I'm only about halfway through the book, but I highly recommend it.Bell uses scripture, all along the way, to back up his beliefs.
Libs Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I was looking for some information on LDS beliefs about what will happen to the earth. I recall being taught that the earth will be perfected at the time of the 2nd Coming of Christ, but couldn't remember how it would be used after that.It looks like this used to be a part of the Articles of Faith. "10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."The reference note on "paradisiacal glory" simply says, "i.e. a condition like the Garden of Eden".Not sure where this fits in with the three kingdoms of heaven.
mercyngrace Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I am reading this book and really enjoying it. He addresses one of the questions that always bothered me, about Christian belief, that unsaved people (those who did not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior) even if they were very good people, would suffer eternally in a horrible flaming hell. How could it be considered "justice" to suffer eternally for sins that were committed in a relatively short period of time? That never made sense to me and seemed completely "unjust". Considering the attributes of God (including his supreme justice) it doesn't make sense, at all. Bell lays out the attributes of God (Mighty, Powerful, Loving, Unchanging, full of Grace, etc) and points to 1 Timothy 2, which claims that God wants ALL to come to a knowledge of truth...and then asks, "Does God get what God wants?" It is Bell's believe that God certainly has the power to bring us all unto the truth.He then goes on to say that heaven will actually be a perfect earth, with all of God's qualities and goodness in full operation. (I think this is LDS belief, yes?)It's a very good read. I'm only about halfway through the book, but I highly recommend it.Bell uses scripture, all along the way, to back up his beliefs.I looked for this book last weekend at Barnes and Noble but couldn't find it anywhere on the shelves. After reading your comment, Libs, I'm going to have to buy it!btw, Brigham Young and others taught that this earth would become a celestial sphere and that all the saved inhabitants of this earth (all but sons of perdition) would live here. This is based on D&C 88.
Libs Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I think you'll really like it, MG! There do seem to be many LDS parallels...or close.When you say the earth will become a "celestial sphere" and that "all" who are saved will live there, do you mean that all three kingdoms of heaven will exist there? Hope you find the book. I know it's on Amazon. I downloaded it to my Kindle for only $10.99.
mercyngrace Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 I think you'll really like it, MG! There do seem to be many LDS parallels...or close.When you say the earth will become a "celestial sphere" and that "all" who are saved will live there, do you mean that all three kingdoms of heaven will exist there? Hope you find the book. I know it's on Amazon. I downloaded it to my Kindle for only $10.99.Actually, Brigham Young taught that eventually all other kingdoms pass away and only the Kingdom of God remains. I don't have a Kindle. Or a Nook. Or any handheld reader. I'm old fashioned, I guess. I love the feel of the pages between my fingers and I love to scribble notes all over the pages in my books. I'm becoming a relic of bygone days...
ELF1024 Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 I think you'll really like it, MG! There do seem to be many LDS parallels...or close.When you say the earth will become a "celestial sphere" and that "all" who are saved will live there, do you mean that all three kingdoms of heaven will exist there? Hope you find the book. I know it's on Amazon. I downloaded it to my Kindle for only $10.99.Based on both your and MG's responses; I've gone ahead and gotten for my wife's Kindle. I look foward to being able to read it.
Libs Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Actually, Brigham Young taught that eventually all other kingdoms pass away and only the Kingdom of God remains. I don't have a Kindle. Or a Nook. Or any handheld reader. I'm old fashioned, I guess. I love the feel of the pages between my fingers and I love to scribble notes all over the pages in my books. I'm becoming a relic of bygone days...Yes, I love highlighting and making notes, as well, and you can do that on a Kindle, it's just that you type in the notes, instead. There is a learning curve, but I'm really growing to appreciate how easy and convenient it is to carry around and use. Totally understand the reticence to try it, though. I wasn't real keen on it, at first, either.
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