LDS Church Growth

[jskains]

Many Anti-LDS give an impression that the Church is imploding..... Is that really the case?<

I go occasionally to the blog http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/ which seems to mostly show wards created far more than wards discontinued, and often they are discontinued for renaming or consolidation into other wards. But more so, there are a lot of branch upgrades to wards.

Apparently Colorado got a whole new stake as that area apparently is growing. So am I missing something, or is the Church still expanding even if it is a bit smaller? And I noticed a lot of new YSA branches..... Usually is good sign of growth through breeding

JMS

[Brade]

Many Anti-LDS give an impression that the Church is imploding..... Is that really the case?

No, it isn't the case. I do, however, think that thoughtful critics and thoughtful believers agree that Church growth has slowed compared past decades. I don't know of any serious critics who claim or imply that the Church is imploding.

[jskains]

No, it isn't the case. I do, however, think that thoughtful critics and thoughtful believers agree that Church growth has slowed compared past decades. I don't know of any serious critics who claim or imply that the Church is imploding.

Well, compared to many faiths that are in fact imploding as part of the general de-churching of America, I'll take slow growth over no growth.

JMS

[Brade]

Well, compared to many faiths that are in fact imploding as part of the general de-churching of America, I'll take slow growth over no growth.

JMS

What other corporate style faiths are imploding as part of the general de-churching of America?

[Tapir Whisperer]

No, it isn't the case. I do, however, think that thoughtful critics and thoughtful believers agree that Church growth has slowed compared past decades. I don't know of any serious critics who claim or imply that the Church is imploding.

The number of convert baptisms is increasing, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remain well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably. "Sociologist Armand Mauss estimates that 50 percent of LDS converts within the United States stop attending within a year of conversion, and 75 percent of foreign converts fail to attend after a year."

We need to do a much better job with retention or I can foresee a time when we will be a Church with 20 million members, but only 5 million active members.

[Brade]

We need to do a much better job with retention or I can foresee a time when we will be a Church with 20 million members, but only 5 million active members.

Well, the best estimates based on census and other sources of information put the current active membership at ~4 million. That's ~4 million out of, what, 14 million. So, I don't think your 5 out of 20 is that far off. In fact, I'm inclined to think that something like that ratio is very, very likely.

[jskains]

What other corporate style faiths are imploding as part of the general de-churching of America?

Well with ugly comments like that, I can see dialoging with you would be a waste.

JMS

[mnn727]

Many Anti-LDS give an impression that the Church is imploding..... Is that really the case?<

So why are you getting your Church 'news' from Anti-Mormons?

Frankly I wish it were harder to become a member - say a years worth of attendance at Church first, that would pretty much insure activity levels.

[jskains]

So why are you getting your Church 'news' from Anti-Mormons?

I don't think I said that. Matter-of-a-fact, I think I said I get my church growth news from a positive blog.

JMS

[Brade]

Well with ugly comments like that, I can see dialoging with you would be a waste.

JMS

Huh? How was that question ugly? I expressed it with the utmost sincerity and without the slightest intention of ugliness. If you're issue is with my use of the word 'corporate', then I want you to know that I didn't mean it negatively at all. I used it to distinguish between faiths that are organized, structured, and, in some sense, incorporated from faiths that are not. For example, the Seventh-Day Adventist faith as compared to evangelicalism.

Edit: I haven't posted around here for a while, but I challenge you to find somebody here who would claim that I've ever been ugly, even among those with whom I have strong disagreements. I pride myself on making every effort to be sincere, even-handed, and kind; and I believe my post history here supports that.

[maupayman]

Well, compared to many faiths that are in fact imploding as part of the general de-churching of America, I'll take slow growth over no growth.

JMS

I would also like CFR this claim. From my reading, of sociologists like Stark and Finke, religiosity in America is on the rise. America being an anomoly among developed countries.

http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520222021

[jskains]

I would also like CFR this claim. From my reading, of sociologists like Stark and Finke, religiosity in America is on the rise. America being an anomoly among developed countries.

http://www.ucpress.e...n=9780520222021

Really, you have never heard of the decline in Church attendance for Catholicism to name just one? Really?

http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis

[Brade]

Really, you have never heard of the decline in Church attendance for Catholicism to name just one? Really?

http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/catholics-in-crisis

That Church attendance among Catholics is declining isn't good evidence of a general de-churching of America. There may in-fact be a general de-churching in America, but we're going to need studies that examine more than merely Catholic activity to tell us that.

[jskains]

That Church attendance among Catholics is declining isn't good evidence of a general de-churching of America. There may in-fact be a general de-churching in America, but we're going to need studies that examine more than merely Catholic activity to tell us that.

And Atheism as one of the fastest growing population segments doesn't mean anything? That growth has to take away from something.

[maupayman]

And Atheism as one of the fastest growing population segments doesn't mean anything? That growth has to take away from something.

So, I linked a book written by sociologists that claims that America is the only developed country where religiosity is increasing. This book is full of studies done on this subject and was the basis of a class I took on the sociology of religion. You are basing your claim of the de-churching of America on the fact the Catholic attendance is down and more people are claiming to be atheists. I think you're wrong on this one jskains.

[maupayman]

And Atheism as one of the fastest growing population segments doesn't mean anything? That growth has to take away from something.

Atheisms growth does not necessarily mean that they are drawing from religion. Atheism has become more socially acceptable in the last decade. From what I have read, religiosity is increasing in America; this refers to people sincere belief in God. Its quite likely that religion has become more polarized in recent years. Historically, many people kind floating on their beliefs. Claiming to be a member of a religion, yet not really taking the beliefs seriously. It seems now that people are taking more definite stance on belief, or lack thereof.

[cinepro]

Well with ugly comments like that, I can see dialoging with you would be a waste.

JMS

jskains, I think the point is that you need a "reference" against which to compare LDS Church stats.

For example, there are several large churches that were founded in the last 200 years that are still around today. These would probably be good control groups (i.e. untrue churches) against which to judge LDS growth. If LDS growth is similar to these other groups, this might tell us something. If it is better or worse than these other groups, then this might also tell us something.

So instead of trying to judge LDS growth in a vacuum (or compared only to historical trends), why don't we look at how the following churches are doing as well?

- Jehovah's Witnesses

- Seventh Day Adventists

- Christian Scientists

- Scientologists

[maupayman]

jskains, I think the point is that you need a "reference" against which to compare LDS Church stats.

For example, there are several large churches that were founded in the last 200 years that are still around today. These would probably be good control groups (i.e. untrue churches) against which to judge LDS growth. If LDS growth is similar to these other groups, this might tell us something. If it is better or worse than these other groups, then this might also tell us something.

So instead of trying to judge LDS growth in a vacuum (or compared only to historical trends), why don't we look at how the following churches are doing as well?

- Jehovah's Witnesses

- Seventh Day Adventists

- Christian Scientists

- Scientologists

Do you know where one could find this data?

[ELF1024]

Many Anti-LDS give an impression that the Church is imploding..... Is that really the case?<

I go occasionally to the blog http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/ which seems to mostly show wards created far more than wards discontinued, and often they are discontinued for renaming or consolidation into other wards. But more so, there are a lot of branch upgrades to wards.

Apparently Colorado got a whole new stake as that area apparently is growing. So am I missing something, or is the Church still expanding even if it is a bit smaller? And I noticed a lot of new YSA branches..... Usually is good sign of growth through breeding

JMS

Does it matter? I don't know about you; but my testimony isn't based on the popularity of the religion. Otherwise I'd be Muslim or Catholic...

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Huh? How was that question ugly? I expressed it with the utmost sincerity and without the slightest intention of ugliness. If you're issue is with my use of the word 'corporate', then I want you to know that I didn't mean it negatively at all. I used it to distinguish between faiths that are organized, structured, and, in some sense, incorporated from faiths that are not. For example, the Seventh-Day Adventist faith as compared to evangelicalism.

Edit: I haven't posted around here for a while, but I challenge you to find somebody here who would claim that I've ever been ugly, even among those with whom I have strong disagreements. I pride myself on making every effort to be sincere, even-handed, and kind; and I believe my post history here supports that.

Like you, I was perplexed at her response to your question. I saw nothing malicious or ugly in it.

The fact is corporate-style churches are growing in the US. In fact two, JW's and SDA's, are growing faster then the LDS Church within the USA. (I posted a story about this about two weeks ago, showing the fastest growing and fastest declining churches.)

[jskains]

<br>Like you, I was perplexed at her response to your question. I saw nothing malicious or ugly in it. <br><br>The fact is corporate-style churches are growing in the US. In fact two, JW's and SDA's, are growing faster then the LDS Church within the USA. (I posted a story about this about two weeks ago, showing the fastest growing and fastest declining churches.)<br>

<br><br>Her?<div><br></div><div>Anyways, Anti-LDS have constantly referred to it as LDS, Inc. (at least on the infamous board that shall not be named) and use that as a method to insult the Church implying it is just a money grubbing business, not an actual Church. It's an extremely common anti-LDS thread.</div><div><br></div><div>JMS</div>

[BookofMormonLuvr]

<br><br>Her?<div><br></div><div>Anyways, Anti-LDS have constantly referred to it as LDS, Inc. (at least on the infamous board that shall not be named) and use that as a method to insult the Church implying it is just a money grubbing business, not an actual Church. It's an extremely common anti-LDS thread.</div><div><br></div><div>JMS</div>

That is why context is important when considering someone's words...

He meant those churches organized with a hierarchy, top-down leadership style, where the style of worship and lessons on a week to week basis would not be very different no matter which part of the world you are in.

You are so used to being defensive you just assumed it was an attack. That is not a healthy way to live.

[jskains]

That is why context is important when considering someone's words...

He meant those churches organized with a hierarchy, top-down leadership style, where the style of worship and lessons on a week to week basis would not be very different no matter which part of the world you are in.

You are so used to being defensive you just assumed it was an attack. That is not a healthy way to live.

Thanks Dr. Phil.

JMS

[Brade]

<br><br>Her?<div><br></div><div>Anyways, Anti-LDS have constantly referred to it as LDS, Inc. (at least on the infamous board that shall not be named) and use that as a method to insult the Church implying it is just a money grubbing business, not an actual Church. It's an extremely common anti-LDS thread.</div><div><br></div><div>JMS</div>

Sure, I understand how I could be misunderstood. But, again, that's not the sense of 'corporate' I intended. jskains, I'm happy to accept your claim that "many faiths...are in fact imploding as part of the general de-churching of America" if the evidence suggests that's the case. I'm simply asking for the evidence that you think supports this claim so that I can have the opportunity to evaluate it myself.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

<br>Thanks Dr. Phil. <img src="http://www.mormondialogue.org/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""><br><br>JMS<br>

<br><br>Don't worry you are not the only one. <img src="http://www.mormondialogue.org/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" alt="" class="bbc_emoticon">

<div><br></div><div>I just have to merely mentioned that I am a former LDS, turned RRLDS in a "Mormon" room or board, and I get the invariable,  "What are <i>you</i> doing here?". It is just assumed I'm there to attack and annoy them, and anything I post is taken with the worst interpretation possible. (I am not saying all LDS do this, but there is enough that it is bothersome.)</div>