Book of Mormon Socialism

[thesometimesaint]

Lehi:

Democracy is not mob rule, any more than Republican is rule by the oligarchs. Democracy is enshrined in the first three words of our Constitution. We are required by the Constitution to be a republic, "If we can keep it madam".

[BookofMormonLuvr]

There's no getting around it - that describes to a "T" not only the Nephites at their most righteous, but also the early Christians in the New Testament and the early Mormons as well. You may disagree with how socialism has worked out in secular societies, but there can be no honest disagreement that the arrangement described in 4 Nephi and elsewhere meets the definition of socialism.

You are missing the one glaring difference. The Nephite "Golden Age" came about because their hearts were changed and they voluntarily gave of their goods for the whole. The were not forced by some secular government mandate.

[Deborah]

Socialists don't want your guns, your religion, or your money.

Are you kidding? They've been trying to get our guns for years, they have secularized our society to the point a child can't read a Bible in school and have taxed us past the point where the Nephites thought they were egregiously taxed.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Deborah:

Socialists don't want your guns, your religion, or your money.

They don't want you to have them either.

[Mark Beesley]

I see that I missed an entire thread on the question of the Book of Mormon's support for socialism.

I don't care to get into a discussion of this matter, and don't really have time anyway over the next while, but did want to register my opinion: I see no support whatever for socialism in the Book of Mormon.

For which I am grateful. Socialism has reduced enough people to unnecessary poverty, and killed more than enough scores of millions. It should go the way of phrenology, liver-divination, leechcraft, witch-burnings, and astrology, which have done far less damage.

If I define socialism in terms that are bad, then it is bad.

If I define socialism in terms that are good, then it is good.

Stalin's socialism was bad.

Nephi's socialism was good.

[Deborah]

Democracy is not mob rule, any more than Republican is rule by the oligarchs. Democracy is enshrined in the first three words of our Constitution. We are required by the Constitution to be a republic, "If we can keep it madam".

And yet our nation was formed to be a representative Republic rather than a pure democracy.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

When was the last time any serious attempt at taking your guns away was presented in Congress?

Your child is not prevented from reading the Bible in any public school. What the State can not do is compel religious indoctrination or belief. Though I would suggest that reading the Bible while studying Pi would NOT be such a good idea.

Ayn Rand was a Socialist.

[semlogo]

See Brant Gardner's post above.

I believe your conclusion is greatly influenced by how you see our world, rather than being logically compelled by the description of life among the Nephites after the visit of Christ.

No, it's greatly influenced by the plain descriptions of life in the Book of Mormon (all things in common) and the plain definition of socialism.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

I never said it was a pure democracy. I believe in representative government. I have no desire to vote on every single issue(bill).

[semlogo]

Actually most entrepreneurs do what they do because they love doing it. How many people have started out working in their garages and expanded because they offered a product someone else wanted. In such cases everyone benefits.

If that were true, then no one would have any problem with, say, equalizing the pay of top level executives with lower level laborers. Not that they don't enjoy their work, but greed is an essential part of the equation. It motivates all of us.

[semlogo]

You are missing the one glaring difference. The Nephite "Golden Age" came about because their hearts were changed and they voluntarily gave of their goods for the whole. The were not forced by some secular government mandate.

Democratic socialism is also voluntary.

[semlogo]

Are you kidding? They've been trying to get our guns for years, they have secularized our society to the point a child can't read a Bible in school and have taxed us past the point where the Nephites thought they were egregiously taxed.

LOL

[David Bokovoy]

A significant problem with these discussions is that they impose a set of modern concepts on a very different economic world. How do concepts developed in a monetary economy related to the needs and practices of a barter economy which is heavily agrarian? King Benjamin certainly wanted to stop the creation of a division between those who thought themselves better and those who were considered inferior, but that was a social process manifest through an economic display. It wasn't inherently economic.

In the case of distributing to the poor, it was sharing versus selfishness, not capitalism versus socialism.

As far as the "all things in common" response after Christ's appearance, we have very little information as to what that actually meant or how it was implemented. Speculation on that phrase is just than--speculation. It becomes a way to discuss modern political systems that really don't relate to the Book of Mormon, save that the phrase became the tangent on which they take off.

While it is true that we have very little information in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament to help define what economic equality among these Saints meant and how it was implemented, we do have historical sources that define such systems in early Judaism and we certainly have a wealth of information on heavenomics from the D&C and early LDS Church history.

This coupled with Jesus' teachings on such matters presented in the Gospels helps define these issues with considerable clarity.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Democratic socialism is also voluntary.

That is patently false. Try to voluntarily opt out from the government programs in a Democratic Socialist country and you will find out how "voluntary" it is. It is still a mandate by a secular government, not what the Book of Mormon speaks of.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Deborah:

Socialists don't want your guns, your religion, or your money.

A more false statement could not have been made.

[thesometimesaint]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

As you cling to your guns, religion, and money.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If I define socialism in terms that are bad, then it is bad.

If I define socialism in terms that are good, then it is good.

Stalin's socialism was bad.

Nephi's socialism was good.

Earth to Mark, Nephi did not practice socialism.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Mola Ram Suda Ram:

As you cling to your guns, religion, and money.

Nothing but a worthless democratic (Obama) talking point.

BTW I will decide how my money gets spent. I don't understand why you think the goverment is going to spend it better.

Look at the mess they have created. You really think that giving it to the government is better than giving it to the church?

[frankenstein]

Deborah, on 11 March 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

Why on earth is capitalism always associated with greed by those who support socialist views. Many capitalists, such as Larry Miller, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, and Oprah Winfrey are very generous givers of their own time and money. Whereas, socialists always want to give away someone else's money.

semlogo: Read The Wealth of Nations - greed is essential to capitalism - it can't function without it. That's capitalism's genius - the recognition of real-world motivators of real people.

also greed, "me first", my happiness is the greatest good, is what rand promotes in atlas shrugged, with "Who is john gault" being a favorite of slogan of rightwingers.

[Nomad]

While it is true that we have very little information in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament to help define what economic equality among these Saints meant and how it was implemented, we do have historical sources that define such systems in early Judaism and we certainly have a wealth of information on heavenomics from the D&C and early LDS Church history.

This coupled with Jesus' teachings on such matters presented in the Gospels helps define these issues with considerable clarity.

Heavenomics?

That's a new one for me.

I'm curious, does your conception of "heavenomics" include the obligatory redistribution of wealth as the method by which poverty is eradicated? Will banking software be modified to make sure everyone's checking account balance is always exactly the same amount as everyone else's?

This is meant to be a serious question, not a flippant one. Maybe you've answered this question elsewhere, but I haven't seen it if you have.

Thanks.

[semlogo]

That is patently false. Try to voluntarily opt out from the government programs in a Democratic Socialist country and you will find out how "voluntary" it is. It is still a mandate by a secular government, not what the Book of Mormon speaks of.

You seem to be opposed not to socialism, but to the basic concept of democracy.

[semlogo]

Earth to Mark, Nephi did not practice socialism.

Depends on which Nephi you mean.

[frankenstein]

and if competition is allowed to flourish they get it for a cheaper price.

nope, but I understand why you believe that.

what happened to the price of ebooks, after the competition - Apple - got involved, the price of books went up 3 - 4 dollars, 9.99 was the gold standard for ebooks before "competition" came around.

what happens to the price of airline tickets during the holidays i.e. competition for tickets, the price increases 3 fold.

the "competition" involved with american style economics, is best demonstrated by the game "hungry-hungry-hippos" the hippo with the most marbles wins, this means the grabbing hands grab all the can because everything counts in large amounts. prices increase because greed drives the price, the greed of the producer to manufacturer are the first to determine prices.

--------------------

we do not know the "hows" of what the Nephites or other communal people lives, what we do not know is that for common understand their system are best described with by socialism or communism, as those are the only two modern system which it can be understand that "there are no poor" or wanting among them.

[frankenstein]

Heavenomics?

That's a new one for me.

I'm curious, does your conception of "heavenomics" include the obligatory redistribution of wealth as the method by which poverty is eradicated?

Yes, it does.

You can not enter "heavenomics" or rather a United Order without obliging yourself to redistribution of that beyond what you need for your needs, that excess could best be described as wealth, which is then redistributed to the poor, each according to their needs, so that there is no poor among them or none are left wanting, as the Lord is Their Shepard.

And the moment you refuse to oblige, well, I believe Acts tells us exactly what happens; your straightway struck down. Or otherwise you are kicked out of the Order.

[Deborah]

what happens to the price of airline tickets during the holidays i.e. competition for tickets, the price increases 3 fold.

This statement alone shows you don't understand the free market system.

I'm not talking about competition among consumers, but among producers. Demand is part of the equation and where there is high demand and limited availability of course price goes up.