Jump to content

Was BOM wrong?


inquiringmind

Recommended Posts

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

Could you point out to me which verses you are thinking of, so I can look at the context. Thanks =).

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

Over 200 Messianic Jews or over 200 synagogues of theirs? If the former, then yes. Some of my neighbours and former coworkers were MJs. Great people. If you meant the latter, then no.

As for the Bom, have you considered that this means belief in the Messiah? This indeed has motivated several cycles of immigration. I'll be happy to provide more evidence of that.

Link to comment
As for the Bom, have you considered that this means belief in the Messiah? This indeed has motivated several cycles of immigration. I'll be happy to provide more evidence of that.

No I hadn't, but that's interesting.

A return to a belief in the Messiah could be the begining of their coming to believe in Jesus.

I'd be interested in your evidence (and thank you.)

Link to comment

One of them would be 2 Nephi 30:7.

Erm... I'm not so sure that the verse is talking about the Holy Land... I think it's just talking about the grouping in general... but not sure. Go with what Volgadon says though, he's very knowledgeable in terms of Jews (he lives or used to live in Israel I believe)... so yah, he's probably a better source than I =P.

Link to comment

No I hadn't, but that's interesting.

A return to a belief in the Messiah could be the begining of their coming to believe in Jesus.

Precisely.

I'd be interested in your evidence (and thank you.)

Many years ago, Ben-Zion Dinur, Israeli minister of education in the 1950s, remarked that

Link to comment

Very cool. I remember giving a lesson to the older youth a while back on the aliyahs of the 19th and 20th century in light of the Restoration and Hyde's dedication (as well as other subsequent dedications) of the Holy Land.

I tried to get across to them that God's plan is bigger and more widespread than I'm sure we can imagine. It does not fit neatly into our little American Mormon box.

That has long been a favourite topic at our home. I think your lesson would have been cool. So many interesting things, the exodus from the walled city, the date-palm aliyah, Bilu, the 2nd Aliyah, all things inspired by messianic hopes, even when secularised. And this is just after 1840, not the thingsleading up to it...

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

I don't know if there was or was not Messianic Jews in 1948, I can tell you though that the reestablishment of the nation of Israel is not the gathering foretold in the BoM and the Bible.

This is a gathering of all the descendants of the ten lost tribes to Jerusalem, and the gathering of the Latter-day Saints and the descendants of Lehi to Zion.

This did not happen in 1948, in 1948 the nation of Israel was reestablished. This is a blessing foretold in the scriptures, we are told that Israel would be rise again in the Latter-days, when the Jewish people come to believe in Christ they will be gathered to Jerusalem, in preparation of the Second Coming. In order for them to be able to gather to Jerusalem they would first need to be a restoration of the Nation of Israel, once again protected by the finger of God from her enemies!

I think you confuse the needed first step of the return of Israel with the gathering of the lost tribes. These are two separate events, Israel is here again, preparing the way for the eventual gathering of the Jewish People to Jerusalem when they come to believe that Christ is there savior.

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

I don't know about 1948, but I used to attend a Messianic Jewish congregation in downtown Jerusalem in the mid-1960s. I even attended Passover with them.

Also, I don't know how many Jewish Christians currently emigrate to the State of Israel, but I understand that there are quite a few Russian Jews who have entered the country in mixed Christian-Jewish families. I myself saw this in a Rumanian Jewish couple (and their children) on my kibbutz. I don't know what the overall statistics might be, but they may be very large by now.

However, II Nephi 30:7-8 speaks of Diaspora Jews beginning to believe in Christ, and that they will begin to gather to the land [of Israel], and that the Lord God will commence the restoration of his people upon the earth. There is nothing explicit in those verses, but it is noteworthy that Joseph saw fit to send Apostle Orson Hyde to Palestine to dedicate the land to the gathering of the Jews (1841). For those who doubt that the modern State of Israel is part of that gathering ought to tell us how many millions of Jews have to be in the State before they will believe that the gathering is beginning!! Currently, the State of Israel has the 5th most powerful armed forces in the world, and there are many more Jews in the world than Mormons, about 6 million Jews in Israel today, and slightly less than that in the USA.

What ought to give real pause to those who insist that only Christian Jews can gather to Israel, is the verse in Zechariah 13:6 "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." The context and meaning is clarified by D&C 45:47-53, in which the Jews are hard pressed, the Messiah comes to the Mount of Olives, it cleaves in twain [Zechariah 14:4-7], the Lord comes down from Heaven, the Jews gather around and ask about those wounds in his hands and feet, and then weep because they had crucified their own king. Why would they ask if they already knew? Why do they weep if already Christian?

Link to comment

That has long been a favourite topic at our home. I think your lesson would have been cool. So many interesting things, the exodus from the walled city, the date-palm aliyah, Bilu, the 2nd Aliyah, all things inspired by messianic hopes, even when secularised. And this is just after 1840, not the thingsleading up to it...

I think the class enjoyed it. A girl was visiting and I don't believe was very active. I heard from my wife (who is in Young Women) that she shared her testimony during the last hour and explained how her Sunday School lesson (which was me) had touched her and really opened her eyes to God's dealings in the world and the reality of the Restoration.

That doesn't happen very often for me. When it does, it makes it all worth it.

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

This is the verse you are referring to:

2 Nephi 30
:

7 And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall
begin
to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people.

8 And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth.

It says

Link to comment

I don't know about 1948, but I used to attend a Messianic Jewish congregation in downtown Jerusalem in the mid-1960s. I even attended Passover with them.

Also, I don't know how many Jewish Christians currently emigrate to the State of Israel, but I understand that there are quite a few Russian Jews who have entered the country in mixed Christian-Jewish families. I myself saw this in a Rumanian Jewish couple (and their children) on my kibbutz. I don't know what the overall statistics might be, but they may be very large by now.

However, II Nephi 30:7-8 speaks of Diaspora Jews beginning to believe in Christ, and that they will begin to gather to the land [of Israel], and that the Lord God will commence the restoration of his people upon the earth. There is nothing explicit in those verses, but it is noteworthy that Joseph saw fit to send Apostle Orson Hyde to Palestine to dedicate the land to the gathering of the Jews (1841). For those who doubt that the modern State of Israel is part of that gathering ought to tell us how many millions of Jews have to be in the State before they will believe that the gathering is beginning!! Currently, the State of Israel has the 5th most powerful armed forces in the world, and there are many more Jews in the world than Mormons, about 6 million Jews in Israel today, and slightly less than that in the USA.

What ought to give real pause to those who insist that only Christian Jews can gather to Israel, is the verse in Zechariah 13:6 "What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." The context and meaning is clarified by D&C 45:47-53, in which the Jews are hard pressed, the Messiah comes to the Mount of Olives, it cleaves in twain [Zechariah 14:4-7], the Lord comes down from Heaven, the Jews gather around and ask about those wounds in his hands and feet, and then weep because they had crucified their own king. Why would they ask if they already knew? Why do they weep if already Christian?

Thanks for posting this. It pretty much sums up everything I was thinking as I read the thread.

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

in 1948? that was the governments of the world; had not much ado with actual jewish fullfillment of prophecy.:P

Link to comment

There are Messianic Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah (in fact, there's a Messianic synagogue down the road from me, and I read somewhere that there are over 200 in Israel today), but I don't believe the Messianic movement started untill fairly recently.

Why does the book of Mormon seem to say that the Jews would only return to the Holy land after they came to believe in Jesus?

I've come across several statements to that effect in the Book of Mormon (if I'm reading it right), and it bothers me.

Were there Messianic Jews in 1948?

Am I missing something?

Can anyone help?

There is a literal gathering, and a spiritual gathering. Remember, when Christ comes, the people will ask "What are these prints in your hands and feet". I don't think that the Jews at Jerusalem that are there now are yet gathered as a hen gathereth her chickens, so to speak. That kind of a gathering will be both literal AND spiritual at the same time. Until then, we have a preparatory period of gathering leading up to the actual culmination of the gathering of Israel to the lands of their inheritance.

Remember, that the wicked and those who do not accept Jesus will not have an inheritance in their lands of promise. And that inheritance is part of the fulfilling of a covenant with the believers. Even Messianic Jews are not actual believers in the true Messiah, until they accept the Restored Gospel, and the Abrahamic Covenant (which is another name for the same covenant as the New and Everlasting Covenant, I believe.)

Link to comment

Hurva_synagogue.jpg

The massive dome in the background has some bearing on the topic of this thread. This is the Hurva synagogue in Jerusalem. The Jordanians blew it up in 1948 and it was rebuilt last year. In 1700 a group of several hundred people- individuals and entire families- arrived from Eastern Europe. They were led by Rabbi Judah ha-Hasid (the Pious) who stirred the people up to acts of penitence preparing for the Messiah, and then led them to Israel, where they would continue preparing the way for the Messia and redempion. R. Judah died a few days after his arrival, but managed to purchase a lot known as the Ashkenazi court (Deir a-Ashkenaz) where a synagogue would be built.A small synagogue was built, but reduced to rubble by the Arab creditors who also evicted Ashkenazi Jews from Jerusalem and held them responsible for the debts. At the beginning of the 19th century, many of the disciples of Rabbi Elijah the Vilna Gaon emigrated to Palestine. They were inspired by the Gaon's doctrine of redemption, which involved practical measures taken below to inspire a response from above. According to the Gaon there were certain acts which, if performed in certain acceptable times, would invoke a favourable response from Heaven, and bring about the arrival of the Messiah and the dawn of redemption. An important part of this was immigration to the Holy Land. The year of redemption was considered to be 1840, and the disciples of the Gaon engaged in messianic agitation as well as practical measures. This wasn't a passive awaiting. They originally settled in Safed (a town in the Galilee), but Menahem Mendel of Shklov decided at great risk to himself to move to Jerusalem and redeem the Hurva. Rebuilding it would be the first step towards rebuilding the temple and reinstating sacrifice, all in hopes of hastening the Messiah's arrrival. He worked hard on cancelling the debts, but it wasn't until 1855 that a firman (or licence) was issued by the Sultan, authorising a synagogue to be built. After many years of hard work, a magnificient structure was erected. The thing was huge, it was impressive, it signalised a change in the status of the Jews in Jerusalem. They now became a force to be reckoned with in the city. Part of the same movement also spearheaded the expansion of Jewish settlement outside the walls of Jerusalem. The people involved iin that venture helped create the settlements of the First Aliyah, and so on, and so forth, all of this leading to the modern state of Israel and the gathering of Jews from all over the world.

Without turning to a belief in the messiah (which is what Christ is), none of the aforementioned events would have taken place.

Link to comment

This is the verse you are referring to:

2 Nephi 30
:

7 And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall
begin
to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people.

8 And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall commence his work among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, to bring about the restoration of his people upon the earth.

It says

Link to comment

If they "hated and vilified" Christ, it is largely because so-called Christians have dragged His name through the mud by blaming the Jews for what the Romans did, forcing Jews to convert, and subjecting them to 2,000 years of persecution, culminating in the unspeakable evil of the Holocaust.

Actually, God held the Jews responsible for the torture and crucifixion of Jesus...

1 Nephi 9

13And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.

14And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.

The Romans were merely carrying out the will of the Jews at Jerusalem. I might add that the 3rd Reich was by no means a Christian government, but was into new ago occultism. I will, however, agree that forced conversion and persecution by Christians throughout the centuries certainly has not endeared them to their Messiah.

Link to comment

Actually, God held the Jews responsible for the torture and crucifixion of Jesus...

The Romans were merely carrying out the will of the Jews at Jerusalem. I might add that the 3rd Reich was by no means a Christian government, but was into new ago occultism. I will, however, agree that forced conversion and persecution by Christians throughout the centuries certainly has not endeared them to their Messiah.

There you go again--bringing up facts 'n' stuff.

Link to comment

There you go again--bringing up facts 'n' stuff.

Well you know facts, are the number one cause of the dreaded "foot in mouth" disease!

If you just leave facts out of the discussion and let the majority decide what it truth and fiction then you don't have to worry about the dreaded "foot in mouth" disease.

That's why some love political correctness, it ignores the facts so you never have to worry about finding that foot stuck in your mouth!

Link to comment

If they "hated and vilified" Christ, it is largely because so-called Christians have dragged His name through the mud by blaming the Jews for what the Romans did, forcing Jews to convert, and subjecting them to 2,000 years of persecution, culminating in the unspeakable evil of the Holocaust.

I agree that the Jews have been a persecuted minority for much of their history during the past 2000; but it would not be correct to blame Jewish antagonism towards Jesus on their persecutors. They did not force the Jews to hate Jesus.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...