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tana

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I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers(AI) unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this info. At the core tho.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

At the core of the human tho is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless. What makes humans unique from each other is acquired knowledge and the inherited physical capabilities of accessing that knowledge.

Humans cannot be judged and sorted by rating this peripheral acquired knowledge, any more than can a computer be sorted and punished. They can only be rated and sorted by assessing their core.

I personally don't think that it is all that hard to locate the core through deductive reasoning.

So, here are some parameters we have to work with based on a Deity caused, reward and punishment system:

Entities are separate and individual.

Entities have unique personalities.

Entity personalities run the gambit of the scale from selfishness, laziness, lack of moral integrity.....to a spotless unblemished record of moral worthiness and self control.

Entities must be rated and sorted because of this.

I start off the Inquisition by stating that: IF God creates entities and inserts them into bodies at or around the birth of the mortal body, logic says these entities are all created equal, blank slate, identical and perfect. Why would god create brand new entities with say, more integrity or ambition than another? And since they are equal, identical and perfect, why would they need sorted?

The LDS apologetic/*you* say: But we don't believe in "blank slate" theory. We have the pre-existence, and this is where spirits get their personalities *before* being inserted into the mortal.

I say: OK, but since building personalities is in essence tacked on experiences, which can't describe the core, God must insert "Blank slate" cores into spirit bodies.

You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions.

I say: Well, then lets try to locate how they developed personalities in here. Did God put a core into a vehicle in here? Wouldn't one need some sort of physical body with sensory equipment to interact with it's realm?

You say? NO. this is the beginning. But, actually there is no beginning. Entities at their core have always existed exactly as they are. They are uncreated. And that goes for god as well. He has always existed as an uncreated *peer*. They interact and communicate with each other thru some method we don't understand.

I say: So, entities have always existed as is, with complex developed diverse personalities acquired through NO cause of their own. They have existed for eternity this way, outside of space/time, and VAST numbers of them have personality issues that require they be inserted into space/time, tested, rated and sorted?

You say: Correct.

I say: This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee. Who is in charge? I don't see any separate entity, energy or force in charge and responsible. God appears to be simply a product of the system who thru NO cause of his own finds himself to be a steward of a subsystem. It doesn't appear that he has any stake in the game. He isn't technically our father. His job isn't to assist us thru the system, but to be in charge of the rating game.

You say: aaarrggg....

Curt

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I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers/AI unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this info. At the core tho.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

At the core of the human tho is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless. What makes humans unique from each other is acquired knowledge and the inherited physical capabilities of accessing that knowledge.

Humans cannot be judged and sorted by rating this peripheral acquired knowledge, any more than can a computer be sorted and punished. They can only be rated and sorted by assessing their core.

I personally don't think that it is all that hard to locate the core through deductive reasoning.

So, here are some parameters we have to work with based on a Deity caused, reward and punishment system:

Entities are separate and individual.

Entities have unique personalities.

Entity personalities run the gambit of the scale from selfishness, laziness, lack of moral integrity.....to a spotless unblemished record of moral worthiness and self control.

Entities must be rated and sorted because of this.

I start off the Inquisition by stating that: IF God creates entities and inserts them into bodies at or around the birth of the mortal body, logic says these entities are all created equal, blank slate, identical and perfect. Why would god create brand new entities with say, more integrity or ambition than another? And since they are equal, identical and perfect, why would they need sorted?

The LDS apologetic/*you* say: But we don't believe in "blank slate" theory. We have the pre-existence, and this is where spirits get their personalities *before* being inserted into the mortal.

I say: OK, but since building personalities is in essence tacked on experiences, which can't describe the core, God must insert "Blank slate" cores into spirit bodies.

You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions.

I say: Well, then lets try to locate how they developed personalities in here. Did God put a core into a vehicle in here? Wouldn't one need some sort of physical body with sensory equipment to interact with it's realm?

You say? NO. this is the beginning. But, actually there is no beginning. Entities at their core have always existed exactly as they are. They are uncreated. And that goes for god as well. He has always existed as an uncreated *peer*. They interact and communicate with each other thru some method we don't understand.

I say: So, entities have always existed as is, with complex developed diverse personalities acquired through NO cause of their own. They have existed for eternity this way, outside of space/time, and VAST numbers of them have personality issues that require they be inserted into space/time, tested, rated and sorted?

You say: Correct.

I say: This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee. Who is in charge? I don't see any separate entity, energy or force in charge and responsible. God appears to be simply a product of the system who thru NO cause of his own finds himself to be a steward of a subsystem. It doesn't appear that he has any stake in the game. He isn't technically our father. His job isn't to assist us thru the system, but to be in charge of the rating game.

You say: aaarrggg....

Curt

LDS do not say this:

"You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions."

Whoever told you this was incorrect. There hasn't been, in LDS terms, enough revelation given on this subject to state emphatically one way or another.

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I say: This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee. Who is in charge? I don't see any separate entity, energy or force in charge and responsible. God appears to be simply a product of the system who thru NO cause of his own finds himself to be a steward of a subsystem. It doesn't appear that he has any stake in the game. He isn't technically our father. His job isn't to assist us thru the system, but to be in charge of the rating game.

You say: aaarrggg....

There is no oversight committee. Nobody is in charge. No separate entity or force is in control. Humankind was not created, in any way or aspect, by some supernatural being. Quite the opposite. Humankind create their own gods - any and all of them.

The tendency of humans to create their own god or gods is clearly evident throughout recorded history and there is strong archeological evidence that objects of superstition or even worship were important to pre-historic / pre literate humans as well. Gods are highly variable, culture specific, collective myths that have evolved along with humankind as an imagined way to fill gaps in knowledge about the real world.

The Mormon God is one of the more anthropomorphic of the modern monotheistic Gods and therefore one of the most evidently human-created Deities around.

The statement that the job of the Mormon Deity is not to assist us through the system ( but to be in charge of the rating process for our progress and achievements) is strongly supported by the fact that we humans get no new knowledge whatsoever from God - any god.

What is termed "spiritual" knowledge, and often attributed to God, is no more than a codification and re-statement of current cultural (or more often sub-cultural) norms and beliefs. Many, if not most of these beliefs are unfounded.

Think of the OT and the Ten Commandments. What proportion of educated people today would claim that these writings were actually the revealed mind and will of an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient being who had any concern whatsoever for his creation?

As has been demonstrated in previous threads on this board where the faithful have been asked to name one scrap of new factual knowledge divinely revealed directly to man, humankind gets no assistance from their imagined Gods.

The OP thought experiment and the conclusions that tana39 draws from it are most consistent with the proposition that there is, in fact, no God as claimed by the theists and that the human condition is best explained by millions of years of hard work by (dare I say it?) evolution and natural selection.

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There is no oversight committee. Nobody is in charge. No separate entity or force is in control. Humankind was not created, in any way or aspect, by some supernatural being. Quite the opposite. Humankind create their own gods - any and all of them.

The tendency of humans to create their own god or gods is clearly evident throughout recorded history and there is strong archeological evidence that objects of superstition or even worship were important to pre-historic / pre literate humans as well. Gods are highly variable, culture specific, collective myths that have evolved along with humankind as an imagined way to fill gaps in knowledge about the real world.

The Mormon God is one of the more anthropomorphic of the modern monotheistic Gods and therefore one of the most evidently human-created Deities around.

The statement that the job of the Mormon Deity is not to assist us through the system ( but to be in charge of the rating process for our progress and achievements) is strongly supported by the fact that we humans get no new knowledge whatsoever from God - any god.

What is termed "spiritual" knowledge, and often attributed to God, is no more than a codification and re-statement of current cultural (or more often sub-cultural) norms and beliefs. Many, if not most of these beliefs are unfounded.

Think of the OT and the Ten Commandments. What proportion of educated people today would claim that these writings were actually the revealed mind and will of an eternal, omnipotent and omniscient being who had any concern whatsoever for his creation?

As has been demonstrated in previous threads on this board where the faithful have been asked to name one scrap of new factual knowledge divinely revealed directly to man, humankind gets no assistance from their imagined Gods.

The OP thought experiment and the conclusions that tana39 draws from it are most consistent with the proposition that there is, in fact, no God as claimed by the theists and that the human condition is best explained by millions of years of hard work by (dare I say it?) evolution and natural selection.

You may peddle this and find traction in some places but you will plow and seed in vain here. Those who fail to recognize spiritual forces beyond man's ability to measure are only half educated.

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I wonder how long would an essay be on "What it's like to be a computer"?

Someday, I want to write a paper (and design a program) based on the human mind... I am curious as to see what data structure the human mind most represents, and how it recalls information through links.

I think that there is an analogy to be had here; What makes computers/AI unique from each other is quantity of stored information and method/speed of accessing this info. At the core tho.....well, there is no *core*, no essence of self awareness, no comprehension that is ageless, timeless and uncreated.

A computer and an AI aren't any different from each other - they are the same. The computer reads code, which contains the AI. An AI is just a bunch of 'if' statements, telling it to do something 'if' another thing is true. This is called boolean logic, and it's how AI is built. Like this code, for a game I am making in AS3:


public function move():void
{
if (phaseOutTimer > 0)
{
phaseOutTimer--;
if (phaseOutTimer == 0)
{
alpha = 1;
phaseOut = false;
}
}
if (x < 0)
{
x = 0;
xSpeed = -xSpeed;
rotation = Math.atan2(ySpeed, xSpeed) * 180 / Math.PI; //SIN, COS in RADIANS
}




if (x > 600)
{
x = 600;
xSpeed = -xSpeed;
rotation = Math.atan2(ySpeed, xSpeed) * 180 / Math.PI; //SIN, COS in RADIANS
}



if (y < 0)
{
y = 0;
ySpeed = -ySpeed;
rotation = Math.atan2(ySpeed, xSpeed) * 180 / Math.PI; //SIN, COS in RADIANS
}





if( y > 480)
{
y = 480;
ySpeed = -ySpeed;
rotation = Math.atan2(ySpeed, xSpeed) * 180 / Math.PI; //SIN, COS in RADIANS
}




x += xSpeed;
y += ySpeed;

if (x< -100 || x> 700 || y<-100 || y>580)
{
x = 250;
y = 200;
xSpeed = 1;
ySpeed = 0;
speed = 1;
rotation = 0;
}
}

That up there is the code for my Pixel class's move() function. If you look at it, it's a bunch of if statements and boolean checks. Oftentimes, AI is like this.

At the core of the human tho is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless. What makes humans unique from each other is acquired knowledge and the inherited physical capabilities of accessing that knowledge.

Actually, I'd disagree... what makes humans different in their base state is what we call 'instinct'... that is predefined knowledge that has no reason for being there. This is what computers lack, and it is the limitation of making a computer act like a human - a computer's instinct would have to be completely hard coded, and since we don't understand the large extent of human instinct, getting it to be perfect would be almost impossible. Of course, instinct isn't needed to make some human-like actions, so most humanoids, if they are made, will probably not contain all of the instinct a normal human has.

Humans cannot be judged and sorted by rating this peripheral acquired knowledge, any more than can a computer be sorted and punished. They can only be rated and sorted by assessing their core.

The problem is that we don't understand the language of the human brain. It's kind of like approaching a new and complex programming language with absolutely no knowledge on it - or the methods it uses. And no instructor either. It takes quite a bit of lucky guessing, and lots of thought to even understand the simple things.

However, as for rating, rating is just a simple way of comparing two thing. You can compare two humans perfectly well - but you are limiting yourself to comparing them in a specific way determined by the test given to them. In other words, no test will be perfectly unbiased towards one or the other, or else, there would be no 'better' one.

That's why 'better', really isn't so much actually 'better', it's just good from a perspective ;-).

I personally don't think that it is all that hard to locate the core through deductive reasoning.

If you have not done programming before, I want you to take a look at that code up there, and tell me what it does. Don't go look at a book to figure out - just figure it out yourself.

Now consider this - the human brain language isn't written in such easily understood logical words. Imagine if all of the letters and symbols in there were replaced with another random letter or symbol. Then imagine as if all the order was mixed up. That is what you are dealing with... a completely new environment, upon which we have no idea upon. We have to start guessing and checking in order for small progress to be made. From small progress, we can then leap to more complex things. But never forget that there was an assumption from the start of it. Complex, I know =P.

So, here are some parameters we have to work with based on a Deity caused, reward and punishment system:

Okay, a parameter - what it means in programming. A parameter is pre-passed in information that is used in a method (a way to manipulate information).

Entities are separate and individual.

Entities have unique personalities.

Entity personalities run the gambit of the scale from selfishness, laziness, lack of moral integrity.....to a spotless unblemished record of moral worthiness and self control.

Entities must be rated and sorted because of this.

So essentially your parameter are like this (you are taking in an 'entity' parameter - that would be the person's spiritual body essentially):


public function startLife(Entity e, trialList:Vector.<Trials>):void
{
...
}

You are passing in a spiritual entity which contains inside of it, the personalities of a person, as well as many variables. The difference between a real person and this program would be that this real person is that a real person has a special method of their own creation called weigh(). weigh() is their method of judging between the positive and negative consequences of an action. It is part of the Entity class, and as of such, was not created by God, but rather, allowed by him. This is what the concept of 'agency' is - it must be something that always existed, even in spiritual matter form. It just must have been dormant until God activated it (giving agency to man), I think, although I could be wrong. Again, agency, this weigh() method would be nigh impossible to program, and would probably have to be hard coded, like instinct.

I start off the Inquisition by stating that: IF God creates entities and inserts them into bodies at or around the birth of the mortal body, logic says these entities are all created equal, blank slate, identical and perfect.

I disagree. In order for agency to exist, and for all of us to not be perfect as of this point, there must be something that differs between our weigh() methods, between person and person. God gave us the capability to use that weigh() method here on Earth, though he could have just as easily taken it away.

Why would god create brand new entities with say, more integrity or ambition than another? And since they are equal, identical and perfect, why would they need sorted?

Thus why we LDS don't believe in creation ex nihlo. Not everyone was created as a blank slate, as equal and identical. They were found with different light; with different closeness to God, and the purpose of this Earth is to bring more light to them all, that they may become as light as God is. We chose (I think using the weigh() method aka agency) to participate in this process, to be encapsulated in a physical body (and perhaps in a spirit body as well - I am a fan of 3 stages, but I may not be correct), and then to come down to Earth, because our weigh() method [which must have existed always], liked Christ's and Father's light.

The LDS apologetic/*you* say: But we don't believe in "blank slate" theory. We have the pre-existence, and this is where spirits get their personalities *before* being inserted into the mortal.

I say: OK, but since building personalities is in essence tacked on experiences, which can't describe the core, God must insert "Blank slate" cores into spirit bodies.

Personality wasn't all created by God - it was manipulated by God to a certain degree, but as I said, he cannot have 'created ex nihlo', or he would be unjust to send anybody into punishment. It takes our choice to send us to punishment, and so we can in no way have gone to this Earth without choosing to, which is why I say the weigh() method might have existed before, but I do not know for sure.

You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions.

I say: Well, then lets try to locate how they developed personalities in here. Did God put a core into a vehicle in here? Wouldn't one need some sort of physical body with sensory equipment to interact with it's realm?

God has an intelligence, thus he can interact with other intelligences. They developed personalities much in the same way we develop personalities down here - through experiences.

You say? NO. this is the beginning. But, actually there is no beginning. Entities at their core have always existed exactly as they are. They are uncreated. And that goes for god as well. He has always existed as an uncreated *peer*. They interact and communicate with each other thru some method we don't understand.

I agree, there is no beginning. But no, entities have not always existed as they are. Yes they are uncreated. God's intelligence was uncreated, but his physical (and perhaps spiritual) body were organized, I think. And ours was too. He is more like us than we think, and that is why he is capable of showing such great love for us - because we are like he was, and will be like him in the future, I think =).

I say: So, entities have always existed as is, with complex developed diverse personalities acquired through NO cause of their own. They have existed for eternity this way, outside of space/time, and VAST numbers of them have personality issues that require they be inserted into space/time, tested, rated and sorted?

You say: Correct.

Correct. However, personalities never had a beginning, they were never a blank slate. No matter how far you go back, there is always, always something before it.

I say: This system doesn't appear to have any oversight committee. Who is in charge? I don't see any separate entity, energy or force in charge and responsible. God appears to be simply a product of the system who thru NO cause of his own finds himself to be a steward of a subsystem. It doesn't appear that he has any stake in the game. He isn't technically our father. His job isn't to assist us thru the system, but to be in charge of the rating game.

You say: aaarrggg....

I posted this picture in another thread:

Universe-Relative.png

Whether there is or isn't another person in charge of the super-universe of the super-universe that contains our universe, I don't know, but there may be. I think King Follet Discourse talks about it a tiny bit, though I haven't read it for myself.

If God is a steward, then there must be someone whom he is stewarding for. And that one must be stewarding for someone else. Infinite getting bigger, each one definable, but also stewarding for another. Infinite recursion going backwards, so to say ;-). I don't know if it is the way it is, but perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't.

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Correct. However, personalities never had a beginning, they were never a blank slate. No matter how far you go back, there is always, always something before it.

TAO old buddy, I always appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I think that sometimes you may dissect it too much and miss the overall MSG.

The prime MSG. I've been lobbying for since I've been on this board is to call for the analyzing of how exactly a "reward and punishment" system CAN work.

I've been suggesting that since there are 7 billion different personal religions (Questing Beast's words) on this planet, the only clean way to address this issue is to set dogma aside and attempt deductive logic and thought experiment.

I feel a bit bad about using only this quote from your post, but it is the only one that best fits my agenda.

If personalities never had a beginning, but just exist as is, how can one ever locate that point where they are personally responsible for creating their own personalities, and then culpability for their apparent mistakes, which would then suggest they NEED rewarded or punished?

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TAO old buddy, I always appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I think that sometimes you may dissect it too much and miss the overall MSG.

Yes, it's a bad Autistic habit I have. Guilty as charged. :fool:

The prime MSG. I've been lobbying for since I've been on this board is to call for the analyzing of how exactly a "reward and punishment" system CAN work.

Okey. This would be how I put it... we made a choice... now we had the capability to stay in sin, or stay out of it. If we stay in it... God the Father cannot be around us (he cannot be around any sin), and so he must leave, and the devil mocks you for eternity (this is why it is outer darkness - there is no light from Christ and Father there - Christ and Father are the ones who bring spiritual light, and the Father cannot look upon any degree of iniquity. Thus, they are left alone... and Satan does what he does... that is make people miserable.

On the other hand, the people who stay out of sin, try to stay as close to God as possible, and for their choices, can relieve what they were promised if they went through with God's plan. It was a deal we made - our staying free of sin (or repenting of it) in exchange for God letting us be like he was.

I don't think I explained it all that well... but yah... if so, let me know.

I've been suggesting that since there are 7 billion different personal religions (Questing Beast's words) on this planet, the only clean way to address this issue is to set dogma aside and attempt deductive logic and thought experiment.

IMO, if you don't have a personal religion (a personal connection with God) you aren't doing the right thing. You need to know what God wishes of you personally. He wishes to give to everyone. However, not everyone needs the same thing - so he gives to all equally, but of different things depending on what they need.

I feel a bit bad about using only this quote from your post, but it is the only one that best fits my agenda.

Tis okay. Feel free to disect my posts to their utter extremities :P. *Hums the dissect a squid song* ;).

Seriously though, I'm totally find with it. :crazy:

If personalities never had a beginning, but just exist as is, how can one ever locate that point where they are personally responsible for creating their own personalities

Because if nobody is responsible for causing it, and if you are the holder of it, you become the one responsible for it; it is yours to use. Nobody else has a claim on it but you, and whom you let have a claim on it.

, and then culpability for their apparent mistakes, which would then suggest they NEED rewarded or punished?

IMO, we chose to be able to be rewarded or punished... it wasn't always that way... we chose it so we could be like God, I think... but not sure.

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You may peddle this and find traction in some places but you will plow and seed in vain here. Those who fail to recognize spiritual forces beyond man's ability to measure are only half educated.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that in order to be more than half educated, one must believe in something for which there is no ability to measure, or in other words, no quantitative evidence?

If that is the case, if there is no ability to measure something, how do you know that the thing I am not able to measure is the same thing that you are not able to measure?

How do you know whether my unmeasureable spiritual forces are any better or worse, or the same or different, than your unmeasurable spiritual forces?

Can you appreciate how difficult it would be to defend your line of reasoning here given that one who is only half educated can take it apart in a few seconds?

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So let me get this straight. You are saying that in order to be more than half educated, one must believe in something for which there is no ability to measure, or in other words, no quantitative evidence?

He is correct. Both realistically... and actually also metaphysically. There are some things which we cannot compare... for example, can you compare how strongly I like strawberries to how well you like chocolate, assuming we both like them alot? And how do we compare whether the color blue, or the color red is better - considering differing opinions.

Also... speaking of metaphysics... you cannot measure the speed and position of an electron at the same time (and by measuring one you effect the other), and so there will always be something you cannot measure at a single instant in reference to electrons ;-).

If that is the case, if there is no ability to measure something, how do you know that the thing I am not able to measure is the same thing that you are not able to measure?

He doesn't know. It's his opinion. I agree with him.

How do you know whether my unmeasureable spiritual forces are any better or worse, or the same or different, than your unmeasurable spiritual forces?

Because of the way you are acting. It is very hard (almost impossible), in this case, to measure degrees of the thing. However, it is very easy to measure polarity. You must be on the opposite side of neutral compared to where he is.

Can you appreciate how difficult it would be to defend your line of reasoning here given that one who is only half educated can take it apart in a few seconds?

How long is a few seconds? Depends which side of the forum you are speaking from ;-).

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He doesn't know. It's his opinion. I agree with him.

Upon this we can agree. And yet Mormons seem willing to take these unmeasurable spiritual forces, the characteristics of which few, if any can really agree upon (because they cannot be measured), and make them the basis of a belief system which you then seek to preach and impose on others.

BTW: It is possible to determine the statistical or most probable position of electron ensembles, or even individual electrons, and such determinations have served science quite well.

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Upon this we can agree. And yet Mormons seem willing to take these unmeasurable spiritual forces, the characteristics of which few, if any can really agree upon (because they cannot be measured), and make them the basis of a belief system which you then seek to preach and impose on others.

Not from what I've seen... most of the Mormons I've seen have no will to impose on others... they merely wish to tell to others, and if the others wish to learn more, to assist. We Mormons don't really like attacking other religions all too much, tbh. Indirectly, I suppose we are, but directly, we are supporting our religion most of the time, and not tearing down others.

BTW, you know Palerider isn't Mormon.

BTW: It is possible to determine the statistical or most probable position of electron ensembles, or even individual electrons, and such determinations have served science quite well.

Nah, it isn't see the uncertainty principle... here's the Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

The more accurate you try to get on one, the less accurate you are on the other, naturally. Of course, accuracy at that small level is usually insignificant for us, but for quantum mechanics, it is a giant miss.

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Hey guys, I don't want to come across as a party pooper...or a hall monitor, and I respect both of your intellects and inputs on here, but I would like to see this thread go in another direction......No blame assigned to anyone.

I would really like to see "foxtrot's" and "TAO's" input as to quantum theory in a separate thread.....Perhaps address my sophomoric assertion in the thread "the brain", "how does the physical brain collapse its own wave function".

I'm thinking in here I'd like to see an examination of the LDS practice of determining that the eternal entity somehow becomes accountable for their behavior at the precise age of eight.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

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Hey guys, I don't want to come across as a party pooper...or a hall monitor, and I respect both of your intellects and inputs on here, but I would like to see this thread go in another direction......No blame assigned to anyone.

I would really like to see "foxtrot's" and "TAO's" input as to quantum theory in a separate thread.....Perhaps address my sophomoric assertion in the thread "the brain", "how does the physical brain collapse its own wave function".

Lol, don't worry, we were getting off topic =P.

I'm thinking in here I'd like to see an examination of the LDS practice of determining that the eternal entity somehow becomes accountable for their behavior at the precise age of eight.

To be quite honest, I'm not sure it is always exactly the age of eight, as to more, the age of recognition. Eight is just set to be the standard, and is also when baptism occurs. Age of recognition for many sometimes occurs afterwards... and it's age of recognition, that is, the age of understanding, that actually matters.

In other words, he who ignorantly sins, whether he is older than eight, or not, will not be held accountable.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

I think the Lord has set eight as the age when repentance can start, thought it only is guaranteed to start when age of recognition occurs =).

Best Wishes,

TAO

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Hey guys, I don't want to come across as a party pooper...or a hall monitor, and I respect both of your intellects and inputs on here, but I would like to see this thread go in another direction......No blame assigned to anyone.

I would really like to see "foxtrot's" and "TAO's" input as to quantum theory in a separate thread.....Perhaps address my sophomoric assertion in the thread "the brain", "how does the physical brain collapse its own wave function".

I'm thinking in here I'd like to see an examination of the LDS practice of determining that the eternal entity somehow becomes accountable for their behavior at the precise age of eight.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

Sorry tana39,

My view of the LDS practice of determining that the "eternal entity" becomes accountable for their behavior at eight years of age is almost certainly more dubious than yours appears to be.

I like the "eternal entity" label, though. I think it nicely captures the LDS belief that some platonic form of each of us existed even before the universe in which we now find ourselves existed.

Neat (if highly improbable) trick.

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LDS do not say this:

"You say: No, The core comes from the "intelligence" realm. Entities MUST bring something with them otherwise they would be "blank slate" and not culpable, not deserving of payments, unaccountable for their actions."

Whoever told you this was incorrect. There hasn't been, in LDS terms, enough revelation given on this subject to state emphatically one way or another.

The only alternative to this I can see, if entities do *not* bring something with them from the intelligence realm, that would indicate that this intelligence realm is *not* an additional estate where intelligence is organized into separate sentient beings. Rather this realm isn't even a realm, it's simply a stockpile of unorganized intelligence substance. Which IMO doesn't really add up with the scripture that says intelligence wasn't created or made and was also in the beginning with the father. To say that the eternal components *when assembled* constitutes a sentient entity having been there in the beginning/uncreated is a stretch of logic.

It also begs the question: If god was at one time also *unorganized*....and there is no single entity energy or force in charge, how did he get organized?

The alternative then to explain how diverse core personalities came into existence, to then be inserted into spirit bodies would entail some form of a *roll of the dice*. (Think Einstein) Even with this scenario tho how is the entity responsible for creating itself and the potential *lack* of integrity that defines it? How could one ever change this core/hard drive by mere tacked on experiences?

*This is why I favor a system where core awareness is shared, indivisible and un-impeachable*

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If personalities never had a beginning, but just exist as is, how can one ever locate that point where they are personally responsible for creating their own personalities, and then culpability for their apparent mistakes, which would then suggest they NEED rewarded or punished?

They have always been personally resposible for improving themselves and progessing.

Abraham 3:26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever

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So let me get this straight. You are saying that in order to be more than half educated, one must believe in something for which there is no ability to measure, or in other words, no quantitative evidence?

Just because you lack that ability doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

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The only alternative to this I can see, if entities do *not* bring something with them from the intelligence realm, that would indicate that this intelligence realm is *not* an additional estate where intelligence is organized into separate sentient beings. Rather this realm isn't even a realm, it's simply a stockpile of unorganized intelligence substance. Which IMO doesn't really add up with the scripture that says intelligence wasn't created or made and was also in the beginning with the father. To say that the eternal components *when assembled* constitutes a sentient entity having been there in the beginning/uncreated is a stretch of logic.

It also begs the question: If god was at one time also *unorganized*....and there is no single entity energy or force in charge, how did he get organized?

The alternative then to explain how diverse core personalities came into existence, to then be inserted into spirit bodies would entail some form of a *roll of the dice*. (Think Einstein) Even with this scenario tho how is the entity responsible for creating itself and the potential *lack* of integrity that defines it? How could one ever change this core/hard drive by mere tacked on experiences?

*This is why I favor a system where core awareness is shared, indivisible and un-impeachable*

I'll freely admit I'm in a little over my head in view of the lexicon you're employing. But to take a stab at it, I recall a quote by Joseph Smith (please don't ask me to CFR immediately, some of these things are in some pretty old memory banks) stating that:

"even this chair has intelligence, otherwise it would not be able to maintain its present form".

I think (and this is entirely my opinion) that Joseph saw "intelligence" as matter with properties having higher and lower forms of organization. Regarding how core personalities (not personalities , but properties) could be inserted (organized as spirit) as a "roll of the dice" only seems unviable if you discount "chaos" or uncertainty as actually being a part of the order. I see it as a very lively possibility that is still within the realm of God's omniscience. Do I know how that works? Nope. But it seems to me there are lots of things that science explores that seem on the suface to be contradictory and yet they do work!

I see the process of matter and cells being organized into bodies here on earth, into sentient beings that are held responsible for their actions. Their material form has always existed in one form or another with certain properties (from dust thou art). Our genetic makeup is a bit of a "role of the dice", but everyone seems to get a dose of issues (genetic tendencies) with which to deal. God takes that into account in our judgement.

I don't really care how or IF God came to be, as some seem to trouble themselves. He states He is eternal and I take Him at His word. I just work on the problems at hand and have FAITH that everything else will take care of itself.

My brain hurts now...........

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I'll freely admit I'm in a little over my head in view of the lexicon you're employing. But to take a stab at it, I recall a quote by Joseph Smith (please don't ask me to CFR immediately, some of these things are in some pretty old memory banks) stating that:

"even this chair has intelligence, otherwise it would not be able to maintain its present form".

I think (and this is entirely my opinion) that Joseph saw "intelligence" as matter with properties having higher and lower forms of organization. Regarding how core personalities (not personalities , but properties) could be inserted (organized as spirit) as a "roll of the dice" only seems unviable if you discount "chaos" or uncertainty as actually being a part of the order. I see it as a very lively possibility that is still within the realm of God's omniscience. Do I know how that works? Nope. But it seems to me there are lots of things that science explores that seem on the suface to be contradictory and yet they do work!

I see the process of matter and cells being organized into bodies here on earth, into sentient beings that are held responsible for their actions. Their material form has always existed in one form or another with certain properties (from dust thou art). Our genetic makeup is a bit of a "role of the dice", but everyone seems to get a dose of issues (genetic tendencies) with which to deal. God takes that into account in our judgement.

I don't really care how or IF God came to be, as some seem to trouble themselves. He states He is eternal and I take Him at His word. I just work on the problems at hand and have FAITH that everything else will take care of itself.

My brain hurts now...........

But what I am *stuck* on is, even through a random type generation of the core soul, The entity can never be responsible for creating itself. This is in essence it's *first cause*, which it did NOT cause. How can it ever be held liable for subsequent actions, in-actions, misbehavior?

If I rear end the car in front of me and that causes a chain reaction pile-up, Who's at fault, Me (God), or the guy I hit pushing his car into the next?

If this random generation creates a being with extreme lack of class, morality, ambition, how can this be the entities fault when it's next action is to *choose the wrong*?

Apparently this core of spirit cannot be rehabilitated and at some point MUST be abandoned to hopelessness. Witness 1/3 the hosts of heaven.....some estimates at 50 billion souls.

Really, Would God give up on rehabilitating a soul if there was any potential at all that it could be? How could a soul become sooo unsavable that it must be discarded unless it was created that way from the beginning, or, had no beginning, just exists as is uncreated?

To me, this concept that some souls can never be fixed indicates that learned knowledge, tacked on experience does not describe the core, otherwise god would surely figure out a way to give them some classes, tack on some information, do an intervention.

I personally consider that to be a VERY important question to ask ones self when considering where and how to locate that most elusive point of accountability of souls.

Possibly your head hurts because it's feeling guilty :P

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But what I am *stuck* on is, even through a random type generation of the core soul, The entity can never be responsible for creating itself. This is in essence it's *first cause*, which it did NOT cause. How can it ever be held liable for subsequent actions, in-actions, misbehavior?

If I rear end the car in front of me and that causes a chain reaction pile-up, Who's at fault, Me (God), or the guy I hit pushing his car into the next?

If this random generation creates a being with extreme lack of class, morality, ambition, how can this be the entities fault when it's next action is to *choose the wrong*?

Apparently this core of spirit cannot be rehabilitated and at some point MUST be abandoned to hopelessness. Witness 1/3 the hosts of heaven.....some estimates at 50 billion souls.

Really, Would God give up on rehabilitating a soul if there was any potential at all that it could be? How could a soul become sooo unsavable that it must be discarded unless it was created that way from the beginning, or, had no beginning, just exists as is uncreated?

To me, this concept that some souls can never be fixed indicates that learned knowledge, tacked on experience does not describe the core, otherwise god would surely figure out a way to give them some classes, tack on some information, do an intervention.

I personally consider that to be a VERY important question to ask ones self when considering where and how to locate that most elusive point of accountability of souls.

Possibly your head hurts because it's feeling guilty :P

I honestly don't understand your statement regarding feeling guilty....is that based on some previous conversations with believers or stereotypes you have? Where does that come from?

Anyway....a question for you.

Do you have any children?

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I honestly don't understand your statement regarding feeling guilty....is that based on some previous conversations with believers or stereotypes you have? Where does that come from?

Anyway....a question for you.

Do you have any children?

Yeah, I knew that line was risky, as you and I don't have a rapport yet. It was just an attempt at a friendly shoulder punch. I was hoping the smiley would convey that.

For what it's worth, there are posters on here whose posts I skip over, as I feel I've come to know them as typical and unoriginal. There are posters on here whose posts I always read, as I've come to know them as deeper thinkers, original and clever. Yours....I always read. Whether I agree with them or not.

I have four sons, aged 27-21 We have some good basketball games...as long as you are also skilled at rugby!

Curt

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I disagree with one of your fundamental premises: "At the core of the human tho is a self awareness that IS uncreated and timeless." While not a canonical source, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article on intelligences correctly points out that this is not a settled concept

While the revelations leave no doubt as to the existence of intelligent matter prior to its being organized as spirits, speculation sometimes arises regarding the nature of premortal existence and whether there was individual identity and consciousness prior to birth as a spirit. Some hold that the terms "intelligence" and "intelligences" have reference to a form of prespirit conscious self-existence, which included individual identity, variety, and agency (so reasoned B. H. Roberts, pp. 401-423). Others maintain that while these characteristics, attributes, and conditions are eternal, they essentially came together for each individual at the spirit birth. The question of whether prespirit intelligence had individual identity and consciousness remains unanswered.

For my part I don't think that our eternal, uncreate core is conscious or self-aware (see my post in a separate thread for my reasoning as to why).

The point I would like to emphasize is my belief that our eternal, uncreate core is indeterministic. This means that it it is fundamentally impossible to correct predict its actions -- even for an omniscient being. It is quite simply something that is not knowable. So, when our Father organized for us spirit bodies, while there is certainly a high degree of interplay between the intelligent core, the body, character and personality the mere fact that our core is indeterministic makes it inherently impossible for our Father to know ahead of time which spirit child will be "good" and which "bad". This would make the ranking you propose impossible.

Computers on the other hand, have no indeterministic, uncreate core. It is perhaps inevitable that we'll be able to create a machine with such an advanced AI as to be virtually indistinguishable from a human. But we would, given omniscience, know exactly how "good" or "bad" that machine will be*. They are completely determined.

* If a truly random process is built into the AI then we would only know the probabilities of "goodness" or "badness" of the machine.

PS: You mentioned the age of 8 and accountability. It should be pointed out that 8 is the age at which we start to become accountable.

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Yeah, I knew that line was risky, as you and I don't have a rapport yet. It was just an attempt at a friendly shoulder punch. I was hoping the smiley would convey that.

For what it's worth, there are posters on here whose posts I skip over, as I feel I've come to know them as typical and unoriginal. There are posters on here whose posts I always read, as I've come to know them as deeper thinkers, original and clever. Yours....I always read. Whether I agree with them or not.

I have four sons, aged 27-21 We have some good basketball games...as long as you are also skilled at rugby!

Curt

Hey Curt,

I have four kids as well. All but one married now and on their own. I know every analogy has it's limitations (and this one has a number which can be discussed) but here goes.

I view this earth life as somewhat of a microcosm of the universe and God's kingdom.

At times I would look at my kids and think, "Here they are! They are here because I desired them. I had the capacity along with my wife to bring them into this sphere of existence and chose to do so.

What was the level of their agency as to whether or not to choose to come to my little part of life? I don't know precisely. But what I do know is that I have a responsibility to nurture and teach them and then make them accountable for their decisions. If I don't, THE LAW WILL. And that is a hard way to go.

As far as they know (as children) they don't know (or remember) having a choice as to whether to come to this life or not. They're just here living with me (when they were young) and seeming for the most part to really value and love the experience.

But at some undefined point on the continuum, they also become self-creators. They make their own decisions as to whether to recognize and respect the law or not. If one of them decided to completely and utterly view the law with contempt and to even relish in its disregard, would an individual then say "better for this one that he were never born" or be given the opportunity? Or perhaps "this one had no choice in his creation therefore he cannot be held responsible or be made accountable".

To me this is simply a disavowel of one's own responsibility for their own choices and the ability to create oneself. Does God already know (through His omniscience) those who will return to him and those who won't? I believe so but that's not the point. The point is that we don't know. It is our future left for us to decide. Our "self-determination" that we are here to discover.

I think in this way God gives us the ability to go (unlike a computer) beyond our (seemingly) set parameters.

Man (in general) has the ability to override his hardwiring whenever he chooses.

A short story:

My father used to work for the Gas company where we grew up. One time during some road construction a large backhoe struck and broke a 12 inch main (extremely dangerous situation).

Some of the management at the headoffices made the decision to try and patch the line without turning off the gas (possible, but the risks are huge) which would have cut service to hundreds of homes.

Against their better judgement, my father and his co-workers followed the orders. The work went on into the evening and large spotlights were brought in to illuminate the area. They later figured it was probably one of them that ignited the gas line. There were five men working in the pit when it went up. The initial explosion blew and forced everyone near the trench to the ground. The resulting superheated flame shot 150 feet into the air and stayed at that height until they finally got the gas shut down. No one could get near the trench, all they could do was wait to see if anyone came out.

As the immolated men who were in the trench clawed their way out screaming, my father and those with him began to cut their burning clothes off and role the men on the ground. The last man to come out of the trench realized that one of his co-workers (who was working underneath the pipe) had failed to come out and in a decision that defies comprehension (even though he himself was completely engulfed in flames) turned to go back in and get his friend.

The men who were assisting grabbed him and wrestled him to the ground before he could re-enter the trench. The next day after the trench cooled down, they found the melted wedding ring of the man who was working beneath the pipe....and that was pretty much all.

What is it that makes men do what goes against every instinct and every inclination? That makes them go beyond their parameters?

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