Modern Prophecies

[TAO]

This is completely wrong.

In the market, both parties must come out a head, or there will be no trade between them. It is true that one of them may lose money, but money is not the ultimate measure. That measure is the satisfaction derived from having a new position (owning something new, getting rid of something less desirable, etc.). If either of the parties actually saw himself a loser from the transaction, he would not trade at all.

Lehi

Yes, both obtain something desireful, I know. I was talking of money solely. What I mean is say you have Stock A, and I have Stock B. If I trade you Stock A for Stock B now, sometime in the future, one of us will have made the 'better' deal. Both of the stocks may have rose. But one of us ended up with 'less' than what we would have. Thus, 'loss', compared to what we would have had if we did not trade.

Thus, in the market, your goal is to trade for things that will gain value quicker than what you have, and yet stay up, and not fall.

That is what I mean by someone always 'losing' in a trade. They end up with something less 'good'.

When you have a bunch of trades because of that sort of prediction, it creates less of a demand on stocks, and more of a demand on money, causing stocks to fall. Thus, because the value of money will be rising, the people who hold the stocks will be the 'losers', even if the stocks 'rise' somewhat, because everyone else will be getting a better deal.

So I guess we are both correct =P.

[nicolasconnault]

I think that there is more of a debate going on in the church about the extent of a prophet's abilities to predict future events. Time and again, members are told that a prophet has a direct conduit from heaven and hears the voice of the Lord speak for the church on matters large and small.

CFR, I'm not familiar with this specific teaching, let alone being told it "time and again". Note the emphasis on "small".

However, it seems that, whenever this ability is put to the test, the prophetic abilities of the FP seem to only show up after the fact -- very similar to the prophetic abilities of Nostradamus.

Which other prophecies have you put to the test? What about the prophecy that if you pay your tithing, you will not lack financially? Have you put that to the test?

So, I guess one has to wonder, as Mortal Man pointed out, whether some of these prophecies should have been released ahead of time. Specifically, I would have been impressed if ETB had predicted the 2008 stock market collapse. TBM "prediciting" it and the church only finding out a couple of years after the fact (with no independent evidence to corroborate the existence of the prophecy in 2008) -- not so much.

One can wonder if one believes one's vantage point on matters of faith and global religion to be higher than that of the prophets, yes. I'm yet to meet anyone complaining about our prophets' lack of "admissible" prophecies to be qualified in that way.

[Avatar4321]

The First Presidency has a responsibility to take care of the Church's finances on behalf of the Lord. I hardly find it shocking or amazing that they recieve Revelation concerning where to keep the finances. Nor do I think it surprising that they didnt reveal this directly to the Church members either. The Lord expects us to be taking care of our own finances. We should be praying over and recieving revelation about them regularly.

We dont need to get all our revelation from the Prophet. The whole point of the Restoration was so that everyone can recieve revelation for their own lives.

[nicolasconnault]

I would like to encourage all those who are confused about personal revelation vs prophets' revelations to read/watch the recent talk by Elder Oaks: The two lines of communication

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Today in our broadcast stake conference we learned that the prophet predicts the stock market. Elder Erying related a story of a time when he was standing in the presence of the First Presidency and the prophet received a revelation that the stock market was about to crash. His counselors confirmed that they too had received this prompting and felt they should act on it. The prophet then instructed Elder Erying, who was then in charge of the church's financial investments, to sell stocks and move the church's holdings to traditionally conservative investments, which he did. Shortly thereafter, the stock market did indeed tank, but the church's investments were protected due to the prophet's diligence in heeding the promptings of the spirit. Elder Erying was subsequently visited by a chief financial officer of the church's investment firm who expressed wonder at the miraculous nature of the church's massive sell order and declared that the LDS church was the only client of his firm to see the crash coming. He asked Elder Eyring how he foresaw the event. Elder Erying reported that, of course, he could not tell him it was a revelation to the Lord's prophet. Elder Erying then bore his testimony to us that the Lord directs and protects the church's investments through His prophet. He then admonished us to follow the prophet and seek his counsel in all that we do.

This left me with the following questions:

1) Should the prophet pass along his stock market revelations to the general membership of the church?

2) How can we follow the prophet if he keeps his prophecies secret?

3) How can we seek out his financial counsel?

4) Could the stock market prophecies be put on lds.org?

To answer your question(s)

[Monster]

To say no one else saw the crash coming is naive. I saw it coming and I am no financial guru. Many people were screaming that there were problems galore. It is just that no one wanted to listen.

If now revelation is for the benefit of the financial arm of the church I guess they do not need tithing anymore since God can just direct investments to make the church even more wealthy.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

To say no one else saw the crash coming is naive. I saw it coming and I am no financial guru. Many people were screaming that there were problems galore. It is just that no one wanted to listen.

If now revelation is for the benefit of the financial arm of the church I guess they do not need tithing anymore since God can just direct investments to make the church even more wealthy.

So it is naive...but you knew it. So don't pay tithing, who needs these blessings?. "Open up a window and pour out a blessing so great, there will not be room enough to receive it".

Did this Apostle give a date?

[keithb]

CFR, I'm not familiar with this specific teaching, let alone being told it "time and again". Note the emphasis on "small".

Costa's talk, last conference. Read it again. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but you have to be deliberately obtuse to not see that in his talk.

Which other prophecies have you put to the test? What about the prophecy that if you pay your tithing, you will not lack financially? Have you put that to the test?

This is another one of those assertions from the scripture that is fundamentally untestable in life. Let me propose two scenarios:

1. I pay my tithing. My car lasts for another five years without major problems. An active member would likely say, "Your car lasted because you paid your tithing."

2. I pay my tithing. My car breaks down tomorrow. An active member would likely say, "This isn't because God was angry that you didn't pay your tithing. It's because he's testing your faith."

So, if my car works, it's because I paid my tithing. If it breaks, it's because God is testing me (and has nothing to do with a lack of blessings that supposedly come from paying my tithing). Therefore, I claim that this prophecy is fundamentally untestable.

Also, before you say that an active member wouldn't say that, I should say that this story is based on personal experience.

One can wonder if one believes one's vantage point on matters of faith and global religion to be higher than that of the prophets, yes. I'm yet to meet anyone complaining about our prophets' lack of "admissible" prophecies to be qualified in that way.

I don't understand your last comment, so I am going to let you type it again and see if it makes more sense the second time.

[keithb]

So it is naive...but you knew it. So don't pay tithing, who needs these blessings?. "Open up a window and pour out a blessing so great, there will not be room enough to receive it".

Did this Apostle give a date?

Paying tithing vs. extra contributions each month to a 401 K: which do you think will allow you to retire earlier?