Evangelical Grace Vs The Atonement

[coolrok7]

As far as strings being attached comment, there is God

[Hughes]

She did more than "beleive"... she didn't just give "God lip service" say all this nice fluffy stuff about the God of Israel and then go turn the spies in.

She entered a COVENANT agreement with the God of Israel. Thus the mention of "tokens" in verse 12. Which was made with the spies.

It was FAITH AND WORKS. She kept her end of the bargian and so did the Lord who shewed her and her family grace, and saved them alive.

I didn't say that she just, "believed" did I?

As I have been saying that "saving faith" is the type of faith that is a commitment or as you have said a covenant agreement. We have a new covenant. However, maybe where we disagree (maybe not too) is that I believe faith comes first, and works are the result.

[WalkerW]

"Necessary element"? Are you saying that without works one won't be saved?

If by saved, you mean the ultimate end of dwelling in the presence of God for all eternity, that is correct. The covenant must be entered and maintained. You don't just enter the covenant and you're good to go.

"saving faith" isn't bogus terminology, rather I'm using "saving" as a modifier of "faith" to give a more specific meaning to the more ambiguous term "faith".

Yet, "faith" had a certain meaning to the New Testament audience. They didn't have modifiers. They knew that faith was related to covenant loyalty.

[WalkerW]

I have yet to see a reply to my posts regarding "faith" and "grace" being rooted in ancient reciprocal systems. All I keep seeing is the term "saving faith" being thrown out.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I have yet to see a reply to my posts regarding "faith" and "grace" being rooted in ancient reciprocal systems. All I keep seeing is the term "saving faith" being thrown out.

That is all I see too. Bummer.

[ELF1024]

That is all I see too. Bummer.

Mods, please close the thread, it seems to have run it's course....

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am saying that the type of faith that both James and Paul are referring to is one that results in Works.

James doesn't say that works make faith alive, but that faith without works is dead, meaning it's not the right type of faith, because it doesn't result in works.

If faith with out works is dead, then faith with works is what? This is really simple.

I do agree that works are a result of faith. I would also note that James no were uses the term "saving faith" in any connection to works. He only uses the term faith.

Even the thief on the Cross with Jesus could claim salvation, to the full extent anyone else does. His faith commitment was real as evidence by Jesus' statement. That's all that matters, if the faith is real, or "saving faith".

I think a reasonable case can nad has been made that teh theif was not saved just by confessing on the cross that Jesus was Lord. Of course that is for a different thread.

Those "in Christ" have died to sin, and live in Christ. Submission to Christ is to die to oneself. Our life is hid with Christ in God.

Live signifies action. But none the less if you have no works your faith is dead. The only way to get saving (alive, or what ever you want to call it) faith is by your works.

[Hughes]

If by saved, you mean the ultimate end of dwelling in the presence of God for all eternity, that is correct. The covenant must be entered and maintained. You don't just enter the covenant and you're good to go.

Yet, "faith" had a certain meaning to the New Testament audience. They didn't have modifiers. They knew that faith was related to covenant loyalty.

And since we don't read Greek, the modifier is accurate, not bogus. If it was bogus you could have pointed out that no it actually could be modified in this way or that...

The question as to when one is saved is an interesting one. Are we saved at the time we enter into the covenant agreement? Or not? If not, then how long does it take to be saved?

[Hughes]

Mods, please close the thread, it seems to have run it's course....

Seems it hasn't. If you don't want to read it, why request that it be shut down for everyone else? I'm just curious where this comes from?

[WalkerW]

And since we don't read Greek, the modifier is accurate, not bogus. If it was bogus you could have pointed out that no it actually could be modified in this way or that...

You're missing the point. Covenant loyalty was well understood anciently, whether it be secular or religious. It isn't a matter of having "saving faith" and some kind of other faith. It is a matter of being faithful or not. Pistis is "faithfulness."

The question as to when one is saved is an interesting one. Are we saved at the time we enter into the covenant agreement? Or not? If not, then how long does it take to be saved?

I think Blake Ostler explained it well:

There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments. We keep the commandments to maintain our fidelity with God...One is justified when one enters into the relationship, for acceptance into the relationship is justification

[Hughes]

If faith with out works is dead, then faith with works is what? This is really simple.

I do agree that works are a result of faith. I would also note that James no were uses the term "saving faith" in any connection to works. He only uses the term faith.

I think a reasonable case can nad has been made that teh theif was not saved just by confessing on the cross that Jesus was Lord. Of course that is for a different thread.

Live signifies action. But none the less if you have no works your faith is dead. The only way to get saving (alive, or what ever you want to call it) faith is by your works.

James uses faith in two different ways. I'm simply using a modifier to signify what type I'm referring to, in an effort to create clarity, rather than promote confusion.

In other words. If we disagree, let's pin point exactly where we disagree, and then truly look at that, instead of just continuing to talk past each other.

At this point it seems we disagree with what it takes to be saved.

I think it's semantics to say that works makes faith alive, as it is a certain type of faith that is alive (what I've been calling saving faith), not that works make this type of faith "alive" but that the type of faith itself, as rooted in Christ, which makes it alive. This certain type of faith results in works, as opposed to a faith that doesn't result in works, which is in all realty a "dead" faith, or not real faith or not "saving" faith. As in, Demon's believe... and are not saved.

We disagree about the thief on the cross, and another thread it will be.

"The only way to get saving faith is by your works."

I'm not sure I agree with that. I'd say the only way you get saving faith is to submit fully to Christ alone and trust him alone. The works will be evidence, or fruit of that faith.

If we disagree on this particular point, I think we've pin pointed where we part companies.

For me, salvation equals, (Saving Faith in Christ alone - which results in works - as a result of the Holy Spirit working in our hearts and minds).

What I hear you saying, and correct me if I'm wrong - salvation equals (Saving Faith in Christ + works)

[Zakuska]

I didn't say that she just, "believed" did I?

As I have been saying that "saving faith" is the type of faith that is a commitment or as you have said a covenant agreement. We have a new covenant. However, maybe where we disagree (maybe not too) is that I believe faith comes first, and works are the result.

What about Peter? Or even Paul?

They did many great works prior to even knowing Jesus as the Christ, and like many of the Jews who did convert to Christianity. Their works came before as well as after Faith in Jesus.

How about the gentiles who don't even know God and yet show his laws written in their heart and becoming a law unto themselves?

[Hughes]

You're missing the point. Covenant loyalty was well understood anciently, whether it be secular or religious. It isn't a matter of having "saving faith" and some kind of other faith. It is a matter of being faithful or not. Pistis is "faithfulness."

And the modifier "saving" faith does communicate that concept, you disagree?

I think Blake Ostler explained it well:

There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments. We keep the commandments to maintain our fidelity with God...One is justified when one enters into the relationship, for acceptance into the relationship is justification

[Hughes]

What about Peter? Or even Paul?

They did many great works prior to even knowing Jesus as the Christ, and like many of the Jews who did convert to Christianity. Their works came before as well as after Faith in Jesus.

How about the gentiles who don't even know God and yet show his laws written in their heart and becoming a law unto themselves?

God is the judge. We are not.

For people who don't know or died before knowing, God is just and since he knows our hearts better than we do, his judgement is just.

[coolrok7]

A Quick question for clarification. What is the difference between these two statements from Paul and James? Are they in conflict?

"not of works" "faith without works is dead"

[Vance]

A Quick question for clarification. What is the difference between these two statements from Paul and James? Are they in conflict?

Who are you asking?

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works (of the Law of Moses), lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (or righteousness), which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works (of righteousness) is dead also.

No conflict at all, when understood in context.

[coolrok7]

Who are you asking?

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works (of the Law of Moses), lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works (or righteousness), which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works (of righteousness) is dead also.

No conflict at all, when understood in context.

The question was to anyone. Thanks for answering. I agree with you on your point Vance which will lead to another point I would make in light of your answer. Answer more later as I'm leaving work for home.

[Zakuska]

God is the judge. We are not.

For people who don't know or died before knowing, God is just and since he knows our hearts better than we do, his judgement is just.

But that throws your whole "works follow faith" argument down the toilet.

Now obviosuly a tree can't bring forth any fruit prior to it being planted and it growing and becoming mature enough for it to actually produce fruits. That is a better analogy to your works follow faith analogy. However... the seed existed prior to it being planted. Is that seed actually doing the growing reaching up for ther sun in response to God watering and dunging it. Is all that growing a work?

[Hughes]

But that throws your whole "works follow faith" argument down the toilet.

Now obviosuly a tree can't bring forth any fruit prior to it being planted and it growing and becoming mature enough for it to actually produce fruits. That is a better analogy to your works follow faith analogy. However... the seed existed prior to it being planted. Is that seed actually doing the growing reaching up for ther sun in response to God watering and dunging it. Is all that growing a work?

When you changed topics, the answer also necessarily changes.

When talking about Grace, Salvation by faith, and works, as we were, the answers from me were that works follow saving faith.

When talking about what happens to people before they know or knew the truth, the answer changes. God judges based on everyone's limited knowledge.

If you're trying to say that my argument is that people *only* do good works if they first believe in Christ, you'd be mistaken. I never said that. Many people, non-believers do many good things, there's intrinsic value in doing good, and even atheists recognize this.

[coolrok7]

The reason I asked for clarification is that we don

[ElfLord]

The reason I asked for clarification is that we don

[coolrok7]

Salvation (being saved from an eternal punishment in hell is by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, "not of works":

Then He said to them,

[ElfLord]

Salvation (being saved from an eternal punishment in hell is by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, "not of works":

One apprehends this saving faith by believing the Gospel:

It is a given that works will follow them that believe. So "Faith Alone" is not absent works befitting repentance.

And what about "obeying" the Gospel?

Romans 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In the (now closed) Grace In Sacrament Meeting thread, consiglieri, suggested that we do not teach Grace enough or do not emphasize Grace enough. Now, in his defense, it doesn't appear that Grace is a word that gets thrown around alot in our worship. A seach of the Gospel Principles Manual only turned up THREE references to Grace.

Now in our defense, we don't seem to talk about Grace as such, but we talk about The Atonement.

Seems my favorite Sunday School teacher does not know me very well...I teach the proper aspect of grace as often as class allows. I made a point of doing so in Priesthood Sunday.

[Hughes]

And what about "obeying" the Gospel?

Romans 10:16

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Which brings up the question. What is the Gospel?