Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Hughes, on 28 January 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:Those who are written into the Lambs book of Life are those who put their trust in Christ for their salvation. That's it. No, the passage doesn't say that only those who obey [certain ordinances or rules or anything] will receive the holy spirit. The passage says he gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey (as in trust in Christ alone for salvation).You didn't answer the final question... is obedience to the Gospel necessary? I did answer it. Obedience is necessary, meaning obedience in believing and trusting Christ alone for salvation. Also, Why was David written in the book of Life and his enemies erased from it?Psalms 69:28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. Finally Christ thinks that "obeying him" means a lot more than simply "trusting in him alone for Salvation".Luke 6:46
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 "Saving Faith" isn't just an intellectual assent, but a commitment to trust in Christ alone.You separated it froms works, though: 1. is faith separated from works? Yes, in that works don't save us, but are evidence of our faith. It can only be mental if works come after the "saving."Grace is given to all men equally, what we do with that is our choice.So, I have to choose to mentally "trust in Christ alone" to be saved?
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 I did answer it. Obedience is necessary, meaning obedience in believing and trusting Christ alone for salvation. You're just making things up now. No one in 1st century Palestine would have any idea what you were talking about. "Faith" was a covenant term. It involved trusting one's covenant partner and being trustworthy to one's covenant obligations.Playing 21st century English word games doesn't change that.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 By grace you are saved, through faith. Works are evidence of saving faith in Christ. Ok lets play this out?By grace are you saved. This is fine. By saving faith in Christ. Ok I have no issue here.However, you then claimed that works are evidence of saving faith. That is impossible because you need works to make faith alive (faith with out works is dead)IOW you need works to make your faith, saving. You are literally putting the cart before the horse.
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Our righteousness is as filthy rags no matter how "good" we are. Do not rip Isaiah from his context.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 "Saving Faith" isn't just an intellectual assent, but a commitment to trust in Christ alone. 1. is faith separated from works? Yes, in that works don't save us, but are evidence of our faith. 2. Grace is given to all men equally, what we do with that is our choice.Not according to the Psalm...Psalms 84:11For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.The full measure of Grace is given only to those who walk uprightly.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 You separated it froms works, though: It can only be mental if works come after the "saving."So, I have to choose to mentally "trust in Christ alone" to be saved?Making a commitment to trust in Christ alone for salvation is a "mental" decision with physical repercussions. Yes. As James points out a person who has truly trusted in Christ for their salvation, will act differently than a person who only "claims" to have trusted Christ for their salvation. In essence, we don't trust in our own "good works" at all. They do nothing for our salvation.
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Making a commitment to trust in Christ alone for salvation is a "mental" decision with physical repercussions. Yes.Therefore, works cannot be separated from the mental decision. "Loyalty" (which is what pistis means) was a lifestyle, not an event.As James points out a person who has truly trusted in Christ for their salvation, will act differently than a person who only "claims" to have trusted Christ for their salvation.Exactly. Works are necessary.In essence, we don't trust in our own "good works" at all. They do nothing for our salvation.Who said anything about "trusting in good works?" Faithfulness to Christ requires good works. It is impossible to be faithful to Him without them.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Ok lets play this out?By grace are you saved. This is fine. By saving faith in Christ. Ok I have no issue here.However, you then claimed that works are evidence of saving faith. That is impossible because you need works to make faith alive (faith with out works is dead)IOW you need works to make your faith, saving. You are literally putting the cart before the horse.Works don't make faith alive. Faith is shown to be true "saving faith" if you will, by the resultant actions. In essence, faith without works isn't saving faith, but it's not the works that save us, but the "saving faith" or commitment to Christ alone for our salvation. For just as trusting in someone else for our salvation is an error, so to is trusting in our own works for our salvation (even in part) an error.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Making a commitment to trust in Christ alone for salvation is a "mental" decision with physical repercussions. Yes. As James points out a person who has truly trusted in Christ for their salvation, will act differently than a person who only "claims" to have trusted Christ for their salvation. In essence, we don't trust in our own "good works" at all. They do nothing for our salvation.If works play no part in Salvation then Christ and his Aposltes lied when they said the following...Matthew 12:36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.Galatians 5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What of those who don't DO such things?
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Works don't make faith alive. Faith is shown to be true "saving faith" if you will, by the resultant actions. In essence, faith without works isn't saving faith, but it's not the works that save us, but the "saving faith" or commitment to Christ alone for our salvation. For just as trusting in someone else for our salvation, so to is trusting in our own works for our salvation (even in part) an error.You keep saying "trusting in our own works." No one has said anything about that and you keep imposing it on us. Works are a necessary element of loyalty to one's covenant part. That's how the ancients understood it. I've provided a number of sources for this.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Making a commitment to trust in Christ alone for salvation is a "mental" decision with physical repercussions. Yes. As James points out a person who has truly trusted in Christ for their salvation, will act differently than a person who only "claims" to have trusted Christ for their salvation. In essence, we don't trust in our own "good works" at all. They do nothing for our salvation.Did Rahab the Harlot "Trust in Christ Alone" for her salvation?No. She didn't even know or care about Christ when she turned traitor to her country and saved her and her house alive by pure and simple works of housing the spies of Joshua. James 224 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.No mention of "believing" in the God of Israel there. Pure and simple ACTION saved her.
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 In essence, faith without works isn't saving faith, but it's not the works that save us, but the "saving faith" or commitment to Christ alone for our salvation. Once again, you are making up stuff. "Commitment" out of necessity will require "works." Works are a part of one's faithfulness to Christ. They are not separated. They can't be coherently. Using bogus terminology like "saving faith" doesn't magically get around this.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 In essence, we don't trust in our own "good works" at all. They do nothing for our salvation.You keep repeating this straw man Hughes. Stop it. No one that is LDS taht I am aware of has ever argued that should trust in our own good works to be saved.
WalkerW Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 You have imposed 21st century evangelical terms on to a 1st century Palestinian text. Being unfamiliar with ancient covenants, treaties, and client-patron systems, you have created this list of loaded terms that would have baffled those of both Old and New Testament times. "Saving faith" is a convenient term that is used to deal with incovenient passages. Nothing more.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 2. Grace is given to all men equally, what we do with that is our choice.Not according to the Psalm...Psalms 84:11For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.The full measure of Grace is given only to those who walk uprightly.Unfortunately the passage you quote doesn't say what you want it to say. It says that, "no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly." It doesn't say that grace isn't given to all men freely.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Therefore, works cannot be separated from the mental decision. "Loyalty" (which is what pistis means) was a lifestyle, not an event.Exactly. Works are necessary.Who said anything about "trusting in good works?" Faithfulness to Christ requires good works. It is impossible to be faithful to Him without them.You point is what then? Works are necessary for what then? If works play no part in Salvation then Christ and his Aposltes lied when they said the following...Matthew 12:36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.Galatians 5:21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. What of those who don't DO such things?Jesus stated that all will be judged, and certainly those who trust in Christ alone for salvation have submitted to that judgement already. Those who haven't, will be judged. And in Galatians Paul is not saying that by simply doing "right" things, we will be saved. Rather, he's saying that those who live *that* way don't have the Spirit, or saving faith.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 You keep saying "trusting in our own works." No one has said anything about that and you keep imposing it on us. Works are a necessary element of loyalty to one's covenant part. That's how the ancients understood it. I've provided a number of sources for this."Necessary element"? Are you saying that without works one won't be saved? Did Rahab the Harlot "Trust in Christ Alone" for her salvation?No. She didn't even know or care about Christ when she turned traitor to her country and saved her and her house alive by pure and simple works of housing the spies of Joshua. James 224 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.No mention of "believing" in the God of Israel there. Pure and simple ACTION saved her.What she believed isn't mentioned, so you can't say you know one way or the other. What is known, is that based on her belief (faith, commitment, etc.) she had appropriate actions that followed those. Her actions didn't live outside our without some faith commitment on her part. Once again, you are making up stuff. "Commitment" out of necessity will require "works." Works are a part of one's faithfulness to Christ. They are not separated. They can't be coherently. Using bogus terminology like "saving faith" doesn't magically get around this."saving faith" isn't bogus terminology, rather I'm using "saving" as a modifier of "faith" to give a more specific meaning to the more ambiguous term "faith". You keep repeating this straw man Hughes. Stop it. No one that is LDS taht I am aware of has ever argued that should trust in our own good works to be saved.Awesome to hear, thanks!
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Works don't make faith alive.James says that faith with out works is dead. Logically, faith with works must be alive.You are wresting the scriptures Hughes. According to James, faith and works are what is needed to make your faith alive. Faith is shown to be true "saving faith" if you will, by the resultant actions. In essence, faith without works isn't saving faith, but it's not the works that save us, but the "saving faith" or commitment to Christ alone for our salvation. For just as trusting in someone else for our salvation is an error, so to is trusting in our own works for our salvation (even in part) an error.You keep putting the horse before the cart. You have simply ignored what I brought up and repeated your same dogma. Saving faith = faith + works. THat is accourding to scripture.You cannot claim works are a product of saving faith because you need works to make your faith salvic or alive.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 "Necessary element"? Are you saying that without works one won't be saved? We are merely repeating what James has stated. He stated that if faith is alone then it is dead. That to me in plain english is that with out works your faith is dead and you cannot claim salvation. Only with works and faith can one claim salvation.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Jesus stated that all will be judged, and certainly those who trust in Christ alone for salvation have submitted to that judgement already. Those who haven't, will be judged. This is nice and dandy, but I am unaware of any scriptuer that claims those that have trusted in Jesus for slavation have submitted to that judgement already.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 What she believed isn't mentioned, so you can't say you know one way or the other. Actually it is mentioned explicetly...Joshua 21 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of Shittim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 James says that faith with out works is dead. Logically, faith with works must be alive.You are wresting the scriptures Hughes. According to James, faith and works are what is needed to make your faith alive.You keep putting the horse before the cart. You have simply ignored what I brought up and repeated your same dogma. Saving faith = faith + works. THat is accourding to scripture.You cannot claim works are a product of saving faith because you need works to make your faith salvic or alive.I am saying that the type of faith that both James and Paul are referring to is one that results in Works. James doesn't say that works make faith alive, but that faith without works is dead, meaning it's not the right type of faith, because it doesn't result in works. We are merely repeating what James has stated. He stated that if faith is alone then it is dead. That to me in plain english is that with out works your faith is dead and you cannot claim salvation. Only with works and faith can one claim salvation.Even the thief on the Cross with Jesus could claim salvation, to the full extent anyone else does. His faith commitment was real as evidence by Jesus' statement. That's all that matters, if the faith is real, or "saving faith". This is nice and dandy, but I am unaware of any scriptuer that claims those that have trusted in Jesus for slavation have submitted to that judgement already.Those "in Christ" have died to sin, and live in Christ. Submission to Christ is to die to oneself. Our life is hid with Christ in God.
Hughes Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 Actually it is mentioned explicetly...She asks for favor in the God of Israels eyes because of her "kindness" (AN ACTION) shown to the spies and as we all know here petition was granted.FAITH AND WORKS all the way Baby!Heb. 11:31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.So she believed, just as I said.
Zakuska Posted January 28, 2011 Posted January 28, 2011 So she believed, just as I said.She did more than "beleive"... she didn't just give "God lip service" say all this nice fluffy stuff about the God of Israel and then go turn the spies in.She entered a COVENANT agreement with the God of Israel. Thus the mention of "tokens" in verse 12. Which was made with the spies.It was FAITH AND WORKS. She kept her end of the bargian and so did the Lord who shewed her and her family grace, and saved them alive.
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