How to identify a Nephite city

[Bill Hamblin]

Let's suppose there was an imaginary city in the New World. How could we prove that it is a Nephite city? What type of evidence would be convincing?

Then, let's compare that with parallel types of archaeological data from Jerusalem. Your assignment is to prove, from ancient archaeology alone, that Jerusalem is a Jewish city?

[Gervin]

Let's suppose there was an imaginary city in the New World. How could we prove that it is a Nephite city? What type of evidence would be convincing?

The proof works two ways - knowledge of, or some assumptions about, the Nephite culture and what you find (and don't find) in the ground. What's the best source - preferably endorsed by the church or church leaders - for using the Book of Mormon narrative to interpret, describe, and conjecture about their culture?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Let's suppose there was an imaginary city in the New World. How could we prove that it is a Nephite city? What type of evidence would be convincing?

Then, let's compare that with parallel types of archaeological data from Jerusalem. Your assignment is to prove, from ancient archaeology alone, that Jerusalem is a Jewish city?

1 cent says that no critic is even going to take this serious and try it out.

[Gervin]

1 cent says that no critic is even going to take this serious and try it out.

I was serious about my question, but then, I probably don't qualify as a critic

[cdowis]

The proof works two ways - knowledge of, or some assumptions about, the Nephite culture and what you find (and don't find) in the ground. What's the best source - preferably endorsed by the church or church leaders - for using the Book of Mormon narrative to interpret, describe, and conjecture about their culture?

AS we have posted before, BOM geography is not a doctrinal issue, but one subject to investigation and intellectual persuit. A leader of the church may express their opinion, as any member of the church.

There is no church position, only opinion and speculation, a scientific endeavour.

Anyone is free to look at the BOM text, draw conclusions on what it says about culture and artifacts. Towers used for religious rites, cement cities, sophisticated calendar, extensive written records in an unknown language. It's all there for anyone to read, and to look on the ground.

[cinepro]

Let's suppose there was an imaginary city in the New World. How could we prove that it is a Nephite city? What type of evidence would be convincing?

Then, let's compare that with parallel types of archaeological data from Jerusalem. Your assignment is to prove, from ancient archaeology alone, that Jerusalem is a Jewish city?

To the degree that their religious practices and periods of warfare can be discerned, based on 4 Nephi it would be nice to see a 2 century period of homogeneous Christian belief and total peace from 33 AD - 200 AD.

If there were similar claims that at some point, Jerusalem and the surrounding communities had totally converted to Christianity and lived in total peace, it would be great to also see that in the archaeological record for Jerusalem.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I was serious about my question, but then, I probably don't qualify as a critic

I believe that you are serious in your question. But your question in no way attempts to answer Bill's question.

As it is a question.

[Vance]

To the degree that their religious practices and periods of warfare can be discerned, based on 4 Nephi it would be nice to see a 2 century period of homogeneous Christian belief and total peace from 33 AD - 200 AD.

If there were similar claims that at some point, Jerusalem and the surrounding communities had totally converted to Christianity and lived in total peace, it would be great to also see that in the archaeological record for Jerusalem.

So the question is, "What would you expect to find, archeologically, that would show this time of peace?"

[Bill Hamblin]

I can tell this is utterly pointless. Mods, could you please close this thread? Thanks

[PaulBoyerFan]

Let's suppose there was an imaginary city in the New World. How could we prove that it is a Nephite city? What type of evidence would be convincing?

Then, let's compare that with parallel types of archaeological data from Jerusalem. Your assignment is to prove, from ancient archaeology alone, that Jerusalem is a Jewish city?

Hebrew inscriptions? Reformed Egyptian inscriptions? Script derived from Hebrew? Inscriptions indicating a familiarity with Israelite customs and beliefs?

[katherine the great]

I can tell this is utterly pointless. Mods, could you please close this thread? Thanks

Sorry Bill. I did attempt to contribute an answer to at least half your question.

[Vance]

Hebrew inscriptions? Reformed Egyptian inscriptions? Script derived from Hebrew? Inscriptions indicating a familiarity with Israelite customs and beliefs?

What do "Reformed Egyptian inscriptions" look like? And shouldn't it be "reformed" rather than "Reformed"?

Edited to add,

How would you know that a script was "derived" from Hebrew?

[semlogo]

What do "Reformed Egyptian inscriptions" look like? And shouldn't it be "reformed" rather than "Reformed"?

They look like this:

[Vance]

They look like this:

So, using those characters, how did they spell "Jershon"? Or "Zarahemla"?

[PaulBoyerFan]

What do "Reformed Egyptian inscriptions" look like? And shouldn't it be "reformed" rather than "Reformed"?

Edited to add,

How would you know that a script was "derived" from Hebrew?

Why would one capitalize the first letter in all of the items, with the execption of that one?

And, gee, perhaps one could see similarities between a script and Hebrew. You know, the way that people can trace the development of writing systems over time.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I can tell this is utterly pointless. Mods, could you please close this thread? Thanks

Come on Bill, give it a little time. We will at least see if I am correct. Ok that really does not matter much. I think your question is an interesting one and it should be explored.

[David Bokovoy]

Before this thread is closed, I wanted to state that Bill's is an extremely important question. Consider, for instance the fact that Israelite material culture is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish from Canaanite material culture in the Late Bronze and early Iron I periods (see, for instance, Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God, 6-7, 21, 27). In reality, the archeological record reveals a direct continuity with the preceding ages and cultures in such features as collar-rim jars, four-room house architecture, cisterns, and burial patterns. For well over a hundred years now, archeologists have sought with great diligence to provide a clear set of criteria in order to distinguish between Israelite and Canaanite sites in the earliest periods, yet have failed.

If I understand his point, Bill seems to be asking the question why we should assume that the Book of Mormon people would be subject to rules that many ancient cultures cannot live up to, including ancient Israel. If I have interpreted his question correctly, I fail to see how anyone could suggest that Bill's was a "stupid question."

Maybe that's just me.

[Bill Hamblin]

Before this thread is closed, I wanted to state that Bill's is an extremely important question. Consider, for instance the fact that Israelite material culture is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish from Canaanite material culture in the Late Bronze and early Iron I periods (see, for instance, Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God, 6-7, 21, 27). In reality, the archeological record reveals a direct continuity with the preceding ages and cultures in such features as collar-rim jars, four-room house architecture, cisterns, and burial patterns. For well over a hundred years now, archeologists have sought with great diligence to provide a clear set of criteria in order to distinguish between Israelite and Canaanite sites in the earliest periods, yet have failed.

If I understand his point, Bill seems to be asking the question why we should assume that the Book of Mormon people would be subject to rules that many ancient cultures cannot live up to, including ancient Israel. If I have interpreted his question correctly, I fail to see how anyone could suggest that Bill's was a "stupid question."

Maybe that's just me.

Yup. Bokovoy gets it, as always. (Well, almost always. )

[Zakuska]

Before this thread is closed, I wanted to state that Bill's is an extremely important question. Consider, for instance the fact that Israelite material culture is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish from Canaanite material culture in the Late Bronze and early Iron I periods (see, for instance, Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God, 6-7, 21, 27). In reality, the archeological record reveals a direct continuity with the preceding ages and cultures in such features as collar-rim jars, four-room house architecture, cisterns, and burial patterns. For well over a hundred years now, archeologists have sought with great diligence to provide a clear set of criteria in order to distinguish between Israelite and Canaanite sites in the earliest periods, yet have failed.

If I understand his point, Bill seems to be asking the question why we should assume that the Book of Mormon people would be subject to rules that many ancient cultures cannot live up to, including ancient Israel. If I have interpreted his question correctly, I fail to see how anyone could suggest that Bill's was a "stupid question."

Maybe that's just me.

I agree... I mean archeologically how do we know that Solomons Temple ever existed. The text says it was thrown down and the blocks reused in other building projects. But other than the text it could have been nothing more than the wailing wall with nothing on top of it at all.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

(Well, almost always. )

Oh boy. Lol.

[David Bokovoy]

Yup. Bokovoy gets it, as always. (Well, almost always. )

What are you talking about. I thought I was wrong once, but then realized I had made a mistake.

[Larrin]

The difficulty with the original question is that Jerusalem is identified with the ancient city of the same name for the reason that its name has never changed. Therefore the only proof to be found is that indicating that it's the same place. With Book of Mormon cities the names of the cities have changed (archaeological sites were given new names and modern cities were built over old ruins with different names). Also, we don't even know the correlation between names of cities given in the Book of Mormon and what they actually would have been. Therefore, while I think that it could be beneficial to find a proper method with which to identify Book of Mormon cities, the comparison with Jerusalem isn't very useful.

[Joseph Antley]

I know little to nothing about ancient American archaeology, but any Native inscriptions that would appear overtly Judeo-Christian or mention Book of Mormon/biblical names would be pretty solid, IMO. Or a Nahuatl signpost that says "2 miles to Zarahemla."

[cinepro]

So, using those characters, how did they spell "Jershon"? Or "Zarahemla"?

Who cares? Just finding a recognizable grouping of those caractors would be pretty monumental.

[cinepro]

So the question is, "What would you expect to find, archeologically, that would show this time of peace?"

Apparently, Mayan archaeologists have the ability to determine the time and place of ancient Mayan wars. I don't know how they do it. It also appears they can learn something about the religious practices of ancient civilizations.

If this is the case, then it would be great if, using whatever methodologies they use, they were able to see that for two (and maybe three) centuries, starting around 33 AD, all the people living in the area described by the Book of Mormon were living a form of New Testament Christianity, with no other religions or forms of non-Christian worship, and that there were no wars between any cities or countries at that time. Also no poor people.

Based on the text of the Book of Mormon, that seems to be what we should expect to find if indeed researchers have the ability to "see" ancient warfare and religious practices. If they don't yet, then of course we wouldn't expect it.