Entry into Celestial Glory - What are the requirements?

[MDalby]

I was asked to identify the requirements for entry into the Celestial Kingdom, not exaltation, just entry into the kingdom. Exaltation is another matter and requires keeping the whole law, sealed by the holy spirit of promise, Temple ordinances and entering into the Church of the Firstborn etc...

But for just entry into the Celestial Kingdom, I was going to give a quick reply but after thinking about it I think i would have been incorrect. My first instinct was to say baptism. But, after thinking about it, I think the Melchizedek priesthood would also be required, correct?

This is what we know.

There are three levels or degrees within the Celestial Kingdom.

1

In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees

;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

(D&C 131:1-4)

[oMtonic]

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

Perhaps it is referring to seeing the face of God as a mortal in the flesh?

[BCSpace]

We know that ordinances are only required for the Celestial Kingdom. Baptism is only needed for the Celestial Kingdom.

A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12)

I don't see how that necessarily follows plus the statement is not from a doctrinal source anyway.

In D&C 76 we see that one must receive the testimony of Jesus and the same requirement is given for the Terrestial glory. The difference between the two in section 76, not yet speaking of the degrees within the CK, is valiancy. It is interesting to note that in vs. 99-101, those who inherit the Telestial have not received the testimony of Jesus even though some are obviously good Christians. Therefore, I would posit that being a member of the "LDS Church" (which one can also become in the afterlife) is a requirement for both the Celestial and the Terrestial. So only Mormons can inherit those degrees and both require baptism in that case.

[MDalby]

I don't see how that necessarily follows plus the statement is not from a doctrinal source anyway.

In D&C 76 we see that one must receive the testimony of Jesus and the same requirement is given for the Terrestial glory. The difference between the two in section 76, not yet speaking of the degrees within the CK, is valiancy. It is interesting to note that in vs. 99-101, those who inherit the Telestial have not received the testimony of Jesus even though some are obviously good Christians. Therefore, I would posit that being a member of the "LDS Church" (which one can also become in the afterlife) is a requirement for both the Celestial and the Terrestial. So only Mormons can inherit those degrees and both require baptism in that case.

BCSpace,

I will accept the word of a dead prophet unless a living prophet has expressed a view that is different.

CFR for a statement from ANY prophet living or dead that says point blank that baptism is required for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.

But in order to enter into the celestial kingdom, which is the kingdom of exaltation, and the kingdom spoken of in the scriptures as the kingdom of God, one must accept and abide in the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, adhering to the teachings, receiving the ordinances, and being true to the covenants which appertain to that salvation

[BCSpace]

I will accept the word of a dead prophet unless a living prophet has expressed a view that is different.

That's fine. However, I accept the Church's definition of doctrine and such a definition precludes direct quotes from Doctrines of Salvation and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith from being official doctrine. I didn't disagree with your first quote. But I do disagree that it necessarily precludes baptism needed for the Terrestial. Make you a deal though. I will change or at least rethink my position if you can find something supporting your position published by the Church.

In the meantime, what do you think of the testimony of Jesus? What's the difference between those good Telestial Christians in D&C 76:99-101 who don't have it and those people (who I claim to be LDS only) in the Terrestial and Celestial who do?

CFR for a statement from ANY prophet living or dead that says point blank that baptism is required for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom.

Since I never made such a claim, I don't feel obligated to CFR it. But I would ask you, since you made a seemingly doctrinal claim, if you know of any statements published by the Church that say baptism is not required for the Terrestial? My claim is that D&C 76 implies it is required. However, since official doctrine superceeds scripture, I must surely take into account anything you might find (or I might find in the future) along those lines.

[MDalby]

BCSpace,

sigh... Fight a different battle. You are wrong on this one.

Then I make the claim that D&C 76 implies that it is not required for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom. Just because you make a claim that something is true, that does not make it so.

Will those who enter the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have to have the ordinance of baptism? No! Baptism is the door into the celestial kingdom. The Lord made this clear to Nicodemus. We are not preaching a salvation for the inhabitants of the terrestrial or the telestial kingdoms. All of the ordinances of the gospel pertain to the celestial kingdom, and what the Lord will require by way of ordinances, if any, in the other kingdoms he has not revealed.

(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:329)

Is Baptism Necessary for Entrance into the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms?

Question: "Is baptism necessary to gain entry into the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms? Won't all who are resurrected and go into these lower kingdoms have to be baptized before they can leave paradise? What will happen to those in paradise who refuse to accept the gospel and accept baptism, even by proxy?"

Answer: The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

. . . A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit.

(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12.)

The kingdom of God mentioned by the Savior in his conversation with Nicodemus points clearly to the fact that it is the celestial kingdom that is meant. This is also implied in the instructions given by our Savior to his apostles when he left them. They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, all who accepted and were baptized should enter the celestial kingdom, but all others would be damned, or be assigned to one of the other kingdoms.

DOCTRINE IS PLAINLY EXPLAINED

In the Doctrine and Covenants this is made very plain. In Section 20 we read:

25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved

[Jigglysaint]

I'd say no, but I would think the general consensus is that a man is fully expected to embrance the priesthood and to be ordained in order to participate fully in the kingdom of God. Perhaps there are special cases where a person is capable of baptism, but should not hold the priesthood, and that person, provided they are still just as faithful, would still obtain just as many blessings as if they were capable.

Now what I said could have applied to the priesthood ban, but I am more or less considering persons whose capacities may limit them from holding the mantle. Somebody with a disability, for example, who is smart enough to believe in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized, but may have issues, such as behavioural or others where being bound to additional covenants might be too much for that person to bear.

[BCSpace]

sigh... Fight a different battle. You are wrong on this one.

I rarely fight actual battles. I'm looking to test my theories and understanding and refine or change them. The best way to do this I've found is to present them as facts and see if they stand the strain. Over time, I hope to accumulate many facts and I think I have. One of those is what the Church considers to be doctrine so unless you can change that understanding, using non doctrinal sources usually doesn't have much effect on my opinion.

Then I make the claim that D&C 76 implies that it is not required for the terrestrial or telestial kingdom. Just because you make a claim that something is true, that does not make it so.

True enough. But I have supported my claim with a specific reference to D&C 76. And now I will present more:

Telestial; Good Christians and Jews who received not the testimony of Jesus:

98And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world;

99For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100These are they who say they are some of one and some of another

[MDalby]

Now regarding this particular subject we certainly could be missing something quoted in a work published by the Church. So if and when you find one, I will be happy to rethink my position.

And when you have one single, yes one single reference, from a prophet that supports your view, even if it is non-binding in establishing doctrine, then I would appreciate you supporting your view.

We will have to agree to disagree. I have the prophets that are the foundation for my view and you have... you have... your interpretation of some scriptures, without any statements from the brethren to support your interpretation.

MD

[nicolasconnault]

I'd say no, but I would think the general consensus is that a man is fully expected to embrance the priesthood and to be ordained in order to participate fully in the kingdom of God. Perhaps there are special cases where a person is capable of baptism, but should not hold the priesthood, and that person, provided they are still just as faithful, would still obtain just as many blessings as if they were capable.

Now what I said could have applied to the priesthood ban, but I am more or less considering persons whose capacities may limit them from holding the mantle. Somebody with a disability, for example, who is smart enough to believe in Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized, but may have issues, such as behavioural or others where being bound to additional covenants might be too much for that person to bear.

Whether they can receive the priesthood during mortality is irrelevant for this topic, since the priesthood can be given by proxy to the dead in temples.

[BCSpace]

Now regarding this particular subject we certainly could be missing something quoted in a work published by the Church. So if and when you find one, I will be happy to rethink my position.

And when you have one single, yes one single reference, from a prophet that supports your view, even if it is non-binding in establishing doctrine, then I would appreciate you supporting your view.

Gladly. Until then, I have the scriptures and you have seemingly nothing.

[Jigglysaint]

Whether they can receive the priesthood during mortality is irrelevant for this topic, since the priesthood can be given by proxy to the dead in temples.

True, but I was under the impression that proxy ordinances are not done for members of the church, but only for ancestors. That is to say that I cannot be a member of the Church, die, then posthumerously be endowed or ordained, even if it turns out that the barriers that prevented me from progressing were not of my own doing.

[MDalby]

Gladly. Until then, I have the scriptures and you have seemingly nothing.

Quite the contrary. I have the scriptures, Joseph Smith and other prophets unified interpretation, without a single dissenting voice, that verify the scriptures. You have the scriptures and the little rustling sound of BS interpretation... I mean BcSpace interpretation (emphasis added)...

[BCSpace]

Gladly. Until then, I have the scriptures and you have seemingly nothing.

Quite the contrary. I have the scriptures,

Which scriptures show baptism is not required for the Terrestial?

Joseph Smith and other prophets unified interpretation, without a single dissenting voice, that verify the scriptures.

Which ones are published by the Church?

You have the scriptures and the little rustling sound of BS interpretation... I mean BcSpace interpretation (emphasis added)...

Where is the flaw in my interpretation? What do you think receiving the testimony of Jesus means if nonLDS Christians have rejected it and end up in the Telestial and those in both the Celestial and Terrestial have it?

[nicolasconnault]

True, but I was under the impression that proxy ordinances are not done for members of the church, but only for ancestors. That is to say that I cannot be a member of the Church, die, then posthumerously be endowed or ordained, even if it turns out that the barriers that prevented me from progressing were not of my own doing.

I wasn't aware of this limitation, I'll see if I can confirm that from official sources.

[LeSellers]

True, but I was under the impression that proxy ordinances are not done for members of the church, but only for ancestors. That is to say that I cannot be a member of the Church, die, then posthumerously be endowed or ordained, even if it turns out that the barriers that prevented me from progressing were not of my own doing.

Not true at all.

We are doing the Temple work for Jerry, my friend who died before getting to the Temple after his baptism. No problems, and the fact that his missing out on them in life was not his "fault" is not the reason we can. Others who have had Word of Wisdom problems or did not have the faith to pay tithing have had their work done, too.

Lehi

[MDalby]

Which scriptures show baptism is not required for the Terrestial?

Which ones are published by the Church?

Where is the flaw in my interpretation? What do you think receiving the testimony of Jesus means if nonLDS Christians have rejected it and end up in the Telestial and those in both the Celestial and Terrestial have it?

I only have a couple of problems with this conjecture of yours.

1. It isn't true.
   
2. It goes against all the words of the prophets.
   

Other than that, it is beautiful.

"There was one of the leading Elders of the Church who went before the people and undertook to preach certain principles. Joseph heard of it and desired him to present the doctrine to him in writing. He wrote it, and when he completed it read it to the Prophet. He asked Joseph what he thought of it. "Why," said Joseph, "it is a beautiful system, I have but one fault to find with it--." "What is that, Brother Joseph?" Joseph said-- 'It is not true.'"

(Wilford Woodruff, CR, April 1890)

MD

[Monster]

I think you mainly just need to die. I think the idea of ordinances and special requirements to gain any level of salvation is mostly a man made concept. Like I say if it was so important for any particular ordinance to be done for you to gain salvation God would make it a lot more clear to all of his children, and not leave it up to a guessing game of what you need to do. Just look at this post and you can see there is no absolute concise agreement on what needs to be done among people of similar beliefs. Now take the whole world and it is defies logic to state that any particular ordinance or mode of behavior is the ultimate answer to salvation. God has not made it clear no matter how much you want to parse the scriptures and make interpretations. Someone will come along and interpret it differently. Best do just do what you believe is right and help as many people along the way as possible. That to me is your most likely avenue to salvation or celestial glory.

[nicolasconnault]

I think you mainly just need to die. I think the idea of ordinances and special requirements to gain any level of salvation is mostly a man made concept. Like I say if it was so important for any particular ordinance to be done for you to gain salvation God would make it a lot more clear to all of his children, and not leave it up to a guessing game of what you need to do. Just look at this post and you can see there is no absolute concise agreement on what needs to be done among people of similar beliefs. Now take the whole world and it is defies logic to state that any particular ordinance or mode of behavior is the ultimate answer to salvation. God has not made it clear no matter how much you want to parse the scriptures and make interpretations. Someone will come along and interpret it differently. Best do just do what you believe is right and help as many people along the way as possible. That to me is your most likely avenue to salvation or celestial glory.

The requirement of baptism for salvation is made clear through modern revelation to living prophets and apostles.

[Monster]

The requirement of baptism for salvation is made clear through modern revelation to living prophets and apostles.

Could be but then there are a whole lot of people that just are not going to make it. You need to be willing to accept that the vast majority of humans that ever lived will not make it.

[MDalby]

Could be but then there are a whole lot of people that just are not going to make it. You need to be willing to accept that the vast majority of humans that ever lived will not make it.

No... Traditional Christianity would need to concede to that point but the LDS believe in a God that has a plan that provides a way for salvation for all His children.

Baptism for the Dead

[nicolasconnault]

No... Traditional Christianity would need to concede to that point but the LDS believe in a God that has a plan that provides a way for salvation for all His children.

Baptism for the Dead

Prethisely, and I personally believe that most people will accept proxy baptisms. Wilford Woodruff was of the same opinion.

[RickChown]

Prethisely, and I personally believe that most people will accept proxy baptisms. Wilford Woodruff was of the same opinion.

Any dead person who now (that they're dead) KNOWS what awaits, will definitely accept proxy baptism if it's offered. Unless they WANT to go to the Lake of Fire. There really isn't a choice. That's why we are given this one life to choose. There is no second chance after death

[LeSellers]

Any dead person who now (that they're dead) KNOWS what awaits, will definitely accept proxy baptism if it's offered. Unless they WANT to go to the Lake of Fire. There really isn't a choice.

You seem to be reading the minds of the dead now. I believe that's verbotten.

However, you are wrong. Anyone who has lived on this earth has become a specific person by his actions and habits. Just because logically the choice is obvious to you now, does not mean you will make it. Your preferences, your prejudices, your ability to choose will all limit how you can make the choice. And there will be many who do not so choose.

How does one explain the sons of Perdition? They know by the witness of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, and yet, their knowledge notwithstanding, they make a choice to reign in hell rather than serve in heaven.

That's why we are given this one life to choose. There is no second chance after death

Then what does the passage in Matthew 16 mean where Christ says His church will overcome the gates of the tomb? (Don't forget, gates keep people in, but the Church of Jesus Christ will work to let them out.)

And why does Peter tell us that the dead in the Spirit Prison will hear the Gospel and be judged so they can live according to the spirit? If they could not accept the Gospel in prison, why would Jesus bother going there: to taunt them? Hardly.

Besides, you're assuming a "second chance". Where does this false description of our doctrine come from, anyway? We don't make it, it is not what we believe. I hear that kind of thing is called a straw man. Is this your method of attacking The Church of Jesus Christ?

Lehi

[Calm]

Any dead person who now (that they're dead) KNOWS what awaits, will definitely accept proxy baptism if it's offered. Unless they WANT to go to the Lake of Fire. There really isn't a choice. That's why we are given this one life to choose. There is no second chance after death

The choice in LDS doctrine is not proxy baptism or lake of fire. You don't understand the doctrine if you think this is all that is allowed. See here for actual belief:

http://lds.org/manua...-world?lang=eng

and

http://lds.org/manua...dgment?lang=eng

If I have misunderstood you and you mean to say that you personally believe in proxy baptism and that only those who choose in this life in some form to accept Christ are then given a proxy baptism in the next life if they haven't had a chance to be baptized in this one, ignore the above...at least in response to your comment.