What was Satan's Plans at the council?

[cinepro]

But the explicit purpose of being sent from God's presence without our memories of Him is to be tested. Those who died before the age of accountability obviously weren't tested, since they were not accountable during mortality.

Then we can't really say that's the "explicit purpose".

[Jason]

We cannt become like God without experiencing mortality and being tested. Of those who died before becoming accountable thet will have another chance to be tested which will take place during the millennium.

Do you have a reference for this idea?

[Jason]

Then we can't really say that's the "explicit purpose".

That's the explicit purpose of the Veil (of removing our memories). For those of us who reach the age of accountability, we are only able to be tested because we don't remember God (otherwise we could not exercise faith).

There are two purposes served in mortality, however, and the first is to obtain a physical body. All of those who die before the age of accountability fulfill this first purpose. So since they got the body but not the testing, it follows that they needed the body but not the testing.

[Rob Osborn]

Do you have a reference for this idea?

I believe it is just common sense. Various prophets have stated that those who died before becoming accountable will be raised in the millennium. Now it stands to reason that they will grow to maturity and enter the covenants of the temple just as anyone else. Would you not find it woerd if they were just raised up to maturity and had to do nothing to be sealed to a spouse and be exalted in the celestial kingdom? Wheres the promises and covenants? Gods house is a house of order. If Christ needed baptism to show proof to the Father that he would obey his commandments then certainly none else, no matter how righteous or without sin, could possibly enter in the path without the necessary covenants.

[Jason]

I believe it is just common sense. Various prophets have stated that those who died before becoming accountable will be raised in the millennium.

I have heard that, but that would still means those individuals will not be undergoing the same testing we did - therefore it was not necessary for them - and the rest of my argument follows.

[nicolasconnault]

I have heard that, but that would still means those individuals will not be undergoing the same testing we did - therefore it was not necessary for them - and the rest of my argument follows.

Except... if they return for the millenium in resurrected form, they will then stay on earth until the end of the millenium, when Satan will be loosed and the testing will resume. No one knows how long this period will last, but I think that 4 Nephi is a bit of a type or shadow of that era. There are no scriptures of which I am aware that say that being resurrected makes you immune to pain, sorrow and temptations. Since even the vilest of sinners will be resurrected, being resurrected doesn't mean being perfected.

[Rob Osborn]

I have heard that, but that would still means those individuals will not be undergoing the same testing we did - therefore it was not necessary for them - and the rest of my argument follows.

We certainly don't need Satan to be tested- thats for sure.

[Jason]

Except... if they return for the millenium in resurrected form, they will then stay on earth until the end of the millenium, when Satan will be loosed and the testing will resume. No one knows how long this period will last, but I think that 4 Nephi is a bit of a type or shadow of that era. There are no scriptures of which I am aware that say that being resurrected makes you immune to pain, sorrow and temptations. Since even the vilest of sinners will be resurrected, being resurrected doesn't mean being perfected.

My impression is that those who are resurrected are in fact perfected, or at least have finished their test of mortality, and that Satan will be unbound to test those who are not yet resurrected, not those who already are.

The "vilest of sinners" won't be resurrected until after the Millenium anyway.

[Jason]

We certainly don't need Satan to be tested- thats for sure.

But apparently we do in fact need him as part of our test. God selected us to be born in this day, when Satan is again near the height of his power, rather than during the Millenium, when he will be bound and the Earth will exist in a Terrestrial condition.

[nicolasconnault]

My impression is that those who are resurrected are in fact perfected, or at least have finished their test of mortality, and that Satan will be unbound to test those who are not yet resurrected, not those who already are.

The "vilest of sinners" won't be resurrected until after the Millenium anyway.

Considering that even the sons of perdition will be resurrected, I doubt the accuracy of your impression

[Jason]

Considering that even the sons of perdition will be resurrected, I doubt the accuracy of your impression

The sons of perdition won't be resurrected until the end of the Millenium, and they have finished their test of mortality (they failed).

[Rob Osborn]

But apparently we do in fact need him as part of our test. God selected us to be born in this day, when Satan is again near the height of his power, rather than during the Millenium, when he will be bound and the Earth will exist in a Terrestrial condition.

The plan of salvation does not require a Satan in order to work. People by themselves can be tested and proven regardless of the influence of Satan. The opposite argument to this is that we should make our children be influenced by evil things like drugs and pornography so they become stronger. Strength comes not necessarily from overcoming adverse conditions but rather just choosing the right even when there is no direct influence around.

[Jason]

The plan of salvation does not require a Satan in order to work. People by themselves can be tested and proven regardless of the influence of Satan. The opposite argument to this is that we should make our children be influenced by evil things like drugs and pornography so they become stronger. Strength comes not necessarily from overcoming adverse conditions but rather just choosing the right even when there is no direct influence around.

That doesn't have much to do with what I said.

[Ahab]

The plan of salvation does not require a Satan in order to work. People by themselves can be tested and proven regardless of the influence of Satan.

Try thinking of "the influence of Satan" as if it means the same thing as "the influence that is in opposition to God's will".

If all we had within us or around us was "the influence to do God's will", with no opposing influence either from within our own selves or from someone outside of ourselves, everything we did would be in harmony with God's will because that would be the only "influence" all of us would experience.

Clearly there are opposing forces at work in the world, and the one that is "good" we atrribute to God while the one that is "evil" is the one we attribute to Satan.

[Rob Osborn]

Try thinking of "the influence of Satan" as if it means the same thing as "the influence that is in opposition to God's will".

If all we had within us or around us was "the influence to do God's will", with no opposing influence either from within our own selves or from someone outside of ourselves, everything we did would be in harmony with God's will because that would be the only "influence" all of us would experience.

Clearly there are opposing forces at work in the world, and the one that is "good" we atrribute to God while the one that is "evil" is the one we attribute to Satan.

I am guessing that we are commanded to build up Zion wherever we live. If I am correct with my thinking societies that have created Zion have had a 100% success rate in saving souls because they create a society absent of Satan's influences. Cities like Enoch come to mind. Also, right after Christ in the America's Satan had no power over the hearts of th epeople and all were saved until a few hundred years later.

[Ahab]

I am guessing that we are commanded to build up Zion wherever we live. If I am correct with my thinking societies that have created Zion have had a 100% success rate in saving souls because they create a society absent of Satan's influences. Cities like Enoch come to mind. Also, right after Christ in the America's Satan had no power over the hearts of the people and all were saved until a few hundred years later.

The fact that people can build up Zion wherever they live doesn't mean everyone living on the Earth at that time will be in a Zion society, though.

For example, when Enoch created a Zion society, there were still people living in Canaan who were not part of that society.

Also, it's not that Satan's influence was removed from the Earth, rather, the people in the Zion society had learned to overcome his influence, in preference to the influence of God.

[LeSellers]

when Enoch created a Zion society, there were still people living in Canaan who were not part of that society.

There was no Canaan during Enoch's lifetime, Canaan hadn't been born yet. Noah or Shem (aka Melchizedek), the great High Priest established Canaan and the City of Salem (later Jerusalem) after the Flood.

Your point is correct, just the detail.

Lehi

[Ahab]

There was no Canaan during Enoch's lifetime, Canaan hadn't been born yet. Noah or Shem (aka Melchizedek), the great High Priest established Canaan and the City of Salem (later Jerusalem) after the Flood.

Your point is correct, just the detail.

Lehi

Excuse me. I meant Cainan, instead of Canaan.

See Moses chapter 6 for more info.