Jesus and Horus

[maupayman]

I recently encountered a video claiming numerous parallels between the lives of Horus and Jesus. The video clip seemed homemade and I am having trouble finding reliable sources to better understand this claim. Any recommended readings on this subject? What are your opinions about this topic? Thanks in advance.

[AngelPalmoni]

Sounds about right...

http://www.angelpalmoni.com/AngelPalmoni/View_The_Scrolls/Pages/PALMONI_files/Media/Progression%20Scroll%20FULL-3/Progression%20Scroll%20FULL-3.jpg?disposition=download

[volgadon]

Sounds like Zeitgeist. The parralels are entirely bogus, and come from the pen of a Victorian pseudo-scholar. Horus did not have 12 disciples, etc., etc.

[maupayman]

Sounds like Zeitgeist. The parralels are entirely bogus, and come from the pen of a Victorian pseudo-scholar. Horus did not have 12 disciples, etc., etc.

No, it was not Zeitgeit, though it may have been copied from the Zeitgeist film. It was just a homemade youtube clip, though I have heard the accusation a few times now. Any sources on this subject?

[mfbukowski]

I don't think you understood Volgadon. "Zeitgeist" is a German word which can be loosely translated as "The spirit of the times".

There are many parallels between Christianity and other ancient religions, but if one believes in dispensationalism, as LDS do, these parallels are easily explained.

Dispensationalism is the view that the truth is revealed in its purity from time to time, but eventually the truth is corrupted as the stories are passed down from one generation to another- much like a game of "telephone".

The corrupted truths then get carried on in apostate stories, myths and legends which are then spread between neighboring cultures. Later, someone notices the parallels and says something like "Oh- the story of Jesus was nothing but a development of the story of Horus" or some other such thing.

The problem is of course that such a thing can never be proven either way. The story of Horus could just as well be a corrupted re-telling of true prophecies about Jesus which have now been lost to history.

The argument works both ways, so it is never a very good one. It's a little like the chicken/egg problem: which came first?

[volgadon]

I don't think you understood Volgadon. "Zeitgeist" is a German word which can be loosely translated as "The spirit of the times".

Actually, he did understand me. I capitalised zeitgeist, referencing the movie.

The argument works both ways, so it is never a very good one. It's a little like the chicken/egg problem: which came first?

A point particularly relevant to that movie's use of Mithras, but I digress.

[maupayman]

I don't think you understood Volgadon. "Zeitgeist" is a German word which can be loosely translated as "The spirit of the times".

There are many parallels between Christianity and other ancient religions, but if one believes in dispensationalism, as LDS do, these parallels are easily explained.

Dispensationalism is the view that the truth is revealed in its purity from time to time, but eventually the truth is corrupted as the stories are passed down from one generation to another- much like a game of "telephone".

The corrupted truths then get carried on in apostate stories, myths and legends which are then spread between neighboring cultures. Later, someone notices the parallels and says something like "Oh- the story of Jesus was nothing but a development of the story of Horus" or some other such thing.

The problem is of course that such a thing can never be proven either way. The story of Horus could just as well be a corrupted re-telling of true prophecies about Jesus which have now been lost to history.

The argument works both ways, so it is never a very good one. It's a little like the chicken/egg problem: which came first?

So, I take it that you are conceding the parralels exist and are legitimate? I understand the chicken/egg problem with the argument, but was interested if these parralels were real, from reputable sources.

[mfbukowski]

So, I take it that you are conceding the parralels exist and are legitimate? I understand the chicken/egg problem with the argument, but was interested if these parralels were real, from reputable sources.

That's not much of a concession, when you think about it, that "the parallels might be real". Those terms are so vague as to be almost meaningless and nothing could ever be "proven".

A "parallel" is in the eye of the beholder, and if you see it, who is to say it is NOT "real"? I mean there are parallels everywhere. Is "The Force" in Star Wars a "real parallel" for the Light of Christ or Holy Ghost? What does that mean?

But yes, I think it is totally clear that much of mythology has parallels in the gospels. Critics can see it from their perspective, that the myths came first, but to me it is evidence in favor of the view that there was a "common ancestor" for all mythology- which I as a TBM think was in fact the gospel as revealed to Adam.

But of course such a belief cannot be proven or disproven by evidence, unless you count the Holy Spirit as "evidence". I do, but many don't.

I personally find it interesting to explore such parallels for ideas and links which modify my understanding of gospel principles. For example, appropriate for the season, the Magi were probably Persian Zorastrian astrologers who were looking the "messiah" promised in their religious tradition, and arguably, in fact found him.

If you notice, Lehi was also aware of the fact that a star would be the sign of the birth of the messiah, but where did that information come from? As far as I notice, the prophesied star is not mentioned in the bible, as a prophecy, yet IS mentioned in the BOM. So who were the Magi who knew a legitimate prophecy which was not known to the Jews? How did they get that knowledge?

Could it be that what became Zorastrianism a legitimate dispensation of the gospel, which became corrupted, including information and prophecies about the star signifying the savior's birth? And did Lehi hear of such prophecies along his journey through the Arabian peninsula, or whatever his true route was?

Interesting to speculate, but of course it is just that, and cannot ever be "proven real".

In case you are not aware- I don't know the "Zeitgeist" movie- both the cult of Mitras and Manicheanism are outgrowths of Zoroastrianism. There are many parallels between our Mormon understanding of these matters and Zoroastrianism, including certain aspects of temple worship.

I personally find Zoroastrianism fascinating because imo it modifies my understanding and knowledge of the true gospel. Another interesting fact- Ahura Mazda- the main "father god" of Zoroastrianism is often pictured as a human figure within a circle, and the circle has wings. It is a sun symbol- Ahura Mazda is identified often with the sun.

Malachi speaks of the savior as "The Sun (yes- sun like the sun in the sky) with healing in his wings". Is that another Zorastrian parallel?

For all I know that was all in the movie, not having seen it.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Or satan, still having knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, could have mislead ancient civilizations with stories of god's and things with just enough similarities that in the days when knowledge would fill the earth, those ancient myths could be used to somehow disprove the Savior, with those supposed "parallels".

satan is patient, cunning adversary.

[mfbukowski]

Actually, he did understand me. I capitalised zeitgeist, referencing the movie.

Oh.

I thought you were just giving the correct German spelling by capitalizing nouns. I don't get out much. ;-)

[LeSellers]

Actually, he did understand me. I capitalised zeitgeist, referencing the movie.

As all nouns are capitalized in German, that was not unambiguous.

Lehi

[seriously honestly]

I recently encountered a video claiming numerous parallels between the lives of Horus and Jesus. The video clip seemed homemade and I am having trouble finding reliable sources to better understand this claim. Any recommended readings on this subject? What are your opinions about this topic? Thanks in advance.

To what parallels are you referring to?

[Tarski]

Or satan, still having knowledge of the Plan of Redemption, could have mislead ancient civilizations with stories of god's and things with just enough similarities that in the days when knowledge would fill the earth, those ancient myths could be used to somehow disprove the Savior, with those supposed "parallels".

satan is patient, cunning adversary.

face meet palm.

[maupayman]

That's not much of a concession, when you think about it, that "the parallels might be real". Those terms are so vague as to be almost meaningless and nothing could ever be "proven".

A "parallel" is in the eye of the beholder, and if you see it, who is to say it is NOT "real"? I mean there are parallels everywhere. Is "The Force" in Star Wars a "real parallel" for the Light of Christ or Holy Ghost? What does that mean?

Agreed, though I think your force parallel is a weak comparison. Perhaps, concession was not the best word choice. I'm just wondering if these claimed parallels truly exist, from an historical perspective.

But yes, I think it is totally clear that much of mythology has parallels in the gospels. Critics can see it from their perspective, that the myths came first, but to me it is evidence in favor of the view that there was a "common ancestor" for all mythology- which I as a TBM think was in fact the gospel as revealed to Adam.

But of course such a belief cannot be proven or disproven by evidence, unless you count the Holy Spirit as "evidence". I do, but many don't.

I understand your point here, but I think it would carry more weight if the historical claims, such as Egyptian claims about Horus, were of a future person, still to come. The fact, that the claims were that the same things, claimed about Jesus, had already happened, to someone like Horus, lends itself more to the idea of borrowing. Books like The Evolution of God by Robert Wright, do a good job of showing how common it was for religious groups, of this time and place, to borrow ideas and meld traditions and stories from one group into another. Given how common this was historically, borrowing becomes a more likely possibility, IMO.

If you notice, Lehi was also aware of the fact that a star would be the sign of the birth of the messiah, but where did that information come from? As far as I notice, the prophesied star is not mentioned in the bible, as a prophecy, yet IS mentioned in the BOM. So who were the Magi who knew a legitimate prophecy which was not known to the Jews? How did they get that knowledge?

Could it be that what became Zorastrianism a legitimate dispensation of the gospel, which became corrupted, including information and prophecies about the star signifying the savior's birth? And did Lehi hear of such prophecies along his journey through the Arabian peninsula, or whatever his true route was?

It seems quite possible to me, in fact likely, that Lehi's knowledge may come more through Rigdon, Smith et al. than some unmentioned encounter with Zorastrians, with corrupted LDS theology.

[maupayman]

To what parallels are you referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zbpgfnqNnE

I found the video again. Again, i'm not saying this video is legit. I'm wondering about more reliable sources on this subject, or input from some of the more well read posters on this site. Thanks.

[maupayman]

face meet palm.

Between God making life look like it all evolved, to test our faith, and Satan's cunning, what's a guy to do?

[mfbukowski]

I'm just wondering if these claimed parallels truly exist, from an historical perspective.

Since it takes a human mind to see (create) a "parallel", and human minds have seen these parallels in the past, I suppose the obvious conclusion is that they "truly existed" historically in SOMEBODY'S mind.

But somehow I suspect that is not what you are asking.

That's kind of my point. I have no idea what you mean by "truly exist from an historical perspective" when you are talking about something we see now, looking back at what we think history is, or was, or might have been, since none of us were there.

But I suppose I am beating a dead horse.

[evangelist]

I recently encountered a video claiming numerous parallels between the lives of Horus and Jesus. The video clip seemed homemade and I am having trouble finding reliable sources to better understand this claim. Any recommended readings on this subject? What are your opinions about this topic? Thanks in advance.

Very dangerious topic , which will involve myth or mythology!

It will put doubt in your faith and put proof on historical facts and reasonings!

You can also add attis in the picture!

one love

[RBoylan]

The arguments are nothing short of parallelomania, and suffer from a non-existent methodology for evaluating parallels and the strength or lackthereof between texts and figures in the past.

Richard B. Hay's Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul and The Conversion of the Imagination

Benjamin Sommer, A Prophet Reads Scripture and

Michael Fishbane, Biblical interpretation in Ancient Israel

would be the best books to read for a more then sufficient and solid introduction to how to evaluate parallels in a sound, methodological fashion.

On alleged parallels between Osiris et al., and Jesus, a good book would be:

Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

FWIW,

Robert B.

[ElfLord]

Doesn't Paul say somewhere in the book of Acts that the Myths and such that were given to the other nations of the gentiles was to prepare them to receive the true Gospel?

[volgadon]

As all nouns are capitalized in German, that was not unambiguous.

Lehi

I did not know that, actually. My view of German is somewhat like that of Clovis.

Tobermory had been Appin's one successful pupil, and he was destined to have no successor. A few weeks later an elephant in the Dresden Zoological Garden, which had shown no previous signs of irritability, broke loose and killed an Englishman who had apparently been teasing it. The victim's name was variously reported in the papers as Oppin and Eppelin, but his front name was faithfully rendered Cornelius.

"If he was trying German irregular verbs on the poor beast," said Clovis, "he deserved all he got."

[volgadon]

The arguments are nothing short of parallelomania, and suffer from a non-existent methodology for evaluating parallels and the strength or lackthereof between texts and figures in the past.

Richard B. Hay's Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul and The Conversion of the Imagination

Benjamin Sommer, A Prophet Reads Scripture and

Michael Fishbane, Biblical interpretation in Ancient Israel

would be the best books to read for a more then sufficient and solid introduction to how to evaluate parallels in a sound, methodological fashion.

On alleged parallels between Osiris et al., and Jesus, a good book would be:

Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

FWIW,

Robert B.

I would also add to that excellent list Saul Lieberman's Greek and Hellenism in Jewish Palestine.

[USU78]

I did not know that, actually. My view of German is somewhat like that of Clovis.

"German irregular verbs . . ."

[maupayman]

Since it takes a human mind to see (create) a "parallel", and human minds have seen these parallels in the past, I suppose the obvious conclusion is that they "truly existed" historically in SOMEBODY'S mind.

But somehow I suspect that is not what you are asking.

You're suspiscion is correct, that is not what i'm asking.

That's kind of my point. I have no idea what you mean by "truly exist from an historical perspective" when you are talking about something we see now, looking back at what we think history is, or was, or might have been, since none of us were there.

But I suppose I am beating a dead horse.

I am wondering if claims like:

Horus was born of a Virgin on Dec. 25th

His birth was accompanied by a star and three kings

Horus was a teacher at age 12 and began his ministry after being baptized by Anup

Horus was known by numerous names, later used by Jesus

Horus was crucified, after first being betrayed

Horus was resurrected after 3 days

etc. etc. are actually agreed upon by historians and egyptologists? I was hoping to find some more reliable sources, to better understand these claims.

[maupayman]

The arguments are nothing short of parallelomania, and suffer from a non-existent methodology for evaluating parallels and the strength or lackthereof between texts and figures in the past.

Richard B. Hay's Echoes of Scripture in the Letters of Paul and The Conversion of the Imagination

Benjamin Sommer, A Prophet Reads Scripture and

Michael Fishbane, Biblical interpretation in Ancient Israel

would be the best books to read for a more then sufficient and solid introduction to how to evaluate parallels in a sound, methodological fashion.

On alleged parallels between Osiris et al., and Jesus, a good book would be:

Ronald H. Nash, The Gospel and the Greeks: Did the New Testament Borrow from Pagan Thought?

FWIW,

Robert B.

Thanks Robert, the Nash book is more what I was hoping to see, though he appears to certainly have a stake in this argument. Looks like most of his books are in defense of the Bible etc. I will look into it though.