The Apostasy

[brightpath]

Will everyone please read Romans Chapter 11. Paul is speaking here to the Gentiles. As we know Paul was known as an Apostle to the Gentiles. The Apostasy came about because of the wickedness of Israel. This was foretold by past prophets but they also said Israel will get it back in the last days and be redeemed. If Israel stayed righteous than salvation would have never come to the Gentiles. God would have only kept working with Israel like he always did in the Old Testament. According to Paul in Romans 11 the Apostasy came about bring salvation unto the Gentiles and provoke Israel to jealousy. To answer Lostprophets question of why 2 Apostasy's. Israel had to rebel against God on both continents to bring about salvation to the Gentiles. If Israel didn't rebel in American too, then God would have said to Israel in the old world, forget you I will just work with righteous Israel,the tribe of Joseph in America. Thus the Gentiles would have never received an opportunity in the Old World because they certainly weren't present in the New World.

[zerinus]

Will everyone please read Romans Chapter 11. Paul is speaking here to the Gentiles. As we know Paul was known as an Apostle to the Gentiles. The Apostasy came about because of the wickedness of Israel. This was foretold by past prophets but they also said Israel will get it back in the last days and be redeemed. If Israel stayed righteous than salvation would have never come to the Gentiles. God would have only kept working with Israel like he always did in the Old Testament. According to Paul in Romans 11 the Apostasy came about bring salvation unto the Gentiles and provoke Israel to jealousy. To answer Lostprophets question of why 2 Apostasy's. Israel had to rebel against God on both continents to bring about salvation to the Gentiles. If Israel didn't rebel in American too, then God would have said to Israel in the old world, forget you I will just work with righteous Israel,the tribe of Joseph in America. Thus the Gentiles would have never received an opportunity in the Old World because they certainly weren't present in the New World.

The Apostasy of the Jews was not a prerequisite to the salvation or redemption of the Gentiles. That is an incorrect reading of Paul.

[brightpath]

The Apostasy of the Jews was not a prerequisite to the salvation or redemption of the Gentiles. That is an incorrect reading of Paul.

Paul is quite clear on what he said in Romans 11. Because of the wickedness of all Israel not just the Jews, redemption came to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then God would have continued to work with them and the Gentiles would have remained strangers. Israel was prophesied to be a light unto the Gentiles.

[zerinus]

Paul is quite clear on what he said in Romans 11. Because of the wickedness of all Israel not just the Jews, redemption came to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then God would have continued to work with them and the Gentiles would have remained strangers. Israel was prophesied to be a light unto the Gentiles.

Paul likes to say everything the hard way, but it is not correct that the fall of Israel was necessary for the salvation of the Gentiles:

Romans 11

:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

It was indeed prophesied that Israel should be

[brightpath]

Paul likes to say everything the hard way, but it is not correct that the fall of Israel was necessary for the salvation of the Gentiles:

Romans 11

:

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18

Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21

For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23

And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

It was indeed prophesied that Israel should be

[Zakuska]

Paul is teaching a mystery here to the Gentiles and us. Because of the wickedness of Israel, God turned to the Gentiles. This is why the Apostasy occurred. Look at the old testament. God had only worked with Israel. After they killed Christ, He then turned to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then the Gentiles would have never had a chance. We know in the old testament Israel kept to themselves and did not mix with the Gentiles. Pay attention to verse 26. Who is the deliverer to come out of Sion?

If that is true then why were there so many Half-Breed Israelites running around in the scriptures during Christs time?

Some examples of this...

Samaritans

Samaritans. The title is used to describe the people who inhabited Samaria after the captivity of the northern kingdom of Israel. They were the descendants of (1) foreign colonists placed there by kings of Assyria and Babylonia (2 Kgs. 17:24; Ezra 4:2, 10); (2) Israelites who escaped at the time of the captivity. The population was therefore partly Israelite and partly gentile. Their religion was also of a mixed character (see 2 Kgs. 17:24

[zerinus]

Paul is teaching a mystery here to the Gentiles and us. Because of the wickedness of Israel, God turned to the Gentiles. This is why the Apostasy occurred. Look at the old testament. God had only worked with Israel. After they killed Christ, He then turned to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then the Gentiles would have never had a chance. We know in the old testament Israel kept to themselves and did not mix with the Gentiles. Pay attention to verse 26. Who is the deliverer to come out of Sion?

I am not going to keep arguing with you over this forever, but you are wrong. Have a look at these verses:

2 Nephi 30

:

2 For behold, I say unto you that

as many of the Gentiles as will repent

are the covenant people of the Lord

;

and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.

Abraham 2

:

10 And I will bless them through thy name; for as many as

receive this Gospel

[Jew or Gentile] shall be

called after thy name, and shall be accounted thy seed, and shall rise up and bless thee as their father;

These promises were not made subject to the apostasy of Israel. They were to be fulfilled regardless.

[Sleeper Cell]

Paul is teaching a mystery here to the Gentiles and us. Because of the wickedness of Israel, God turned to the Gentiles. This is why the Apostasy occurred. Look at the old testament. God had only worked with Israel. After they killed Christ, He then turned to the Gentiles.

Wasn

[Zakuska]

Wasn

[Vance]

Depends on who you ask... Luke...

Luke 18

32 For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be amocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33 And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall arise again.

Or Peter reported by Luke...

Acts 4

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the aname of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Another contradiction in the "inerrant" Bible.

[zerinus]

Another contradiction in the "inerrant" Bible.

I suppose both sides were guilty, but the Jews bore the brunt of the guilt:

John 19

:

11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

[brightpath]

There's only 2 groups of people in the world. The Gentiles and Israelites. Israel or the chosen lineage had the gospel and priesthood since the beginning. God worked with Israel until they crucified Christ and fell into apostasy on both continents. God then turned to the Gentiles but promised Israel in the last days the gospel would be returned to them. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. God had always just worked with his chosen seed throughout history up until he sent his apostles unto the Gentiles. Because of the fall of Israel and the apostasy, the Gentiles are now included as the covenant people of the Lord through adoption if they live righteously. As Paul declared in Romans, Salvation has come unto the Gentiles because of Israel's unbelief.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Another contradiction in the "inerrant" Bible.

But hey! If it is Micah quoting Isaiah, or vice versa, then its a parallelism! If it is Nephi then it is plagiarism!!!

Also, the Bible cannot ever been shown to be changed or erasures done, the Book of Mormon yes, and 4000 of them!

Bruce R McConkie said in 1892 that to have a personal relationship with Christ is false doctrine! Never mind that he wouldn't be born until 23 years later much less be called to the Apostleship!

A rabid anti said all that on a Spanish board, so it must be true!

[ELF1024]

There's only 2 groups of people in the world. The Gentiles and Israelites. Israel or the chosen lineage had the gospel and priesthood since the beginning. God worked with Israel until they crucified Christ and fell into apostasy on both continents. God then turned to the Gentiles but promised Israel in the last days the gospel would be returned to them. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. God had always just worked with his chosen seed throughout history up until he sent his apostles unto the Gentiles. Because of the fall of Israel and the apostasy, the Gentiles are now included as the covenant people of the Lord through adoption if they live righteously. As Paul declared in Romans, Salvation has come unto the Gentiles because of Israel's unbelief.

So... what you are saying if I am reading this right, is that if the Israelities had not rebelled against Christ, that God the Father would never have attempted to give salvation unto the Gentiles, but just let them rot in ignorance?

[Deborah]

Lest we forget Christ and his chosen Apostles were all part of the tribe of Israel. Christ's mission was to the descendants of Israel and they were the ones who led the church after his death. The Gentiles came to Christ through Israel. Who was it that killed the Apostles which led to the Great Apostasy? The Gentiles.

Now we know that the tribes of Israel, other than Judah, were scattered throughout the nations and current members of the church in their lineage are either direct descendants of those tribes, mainly Ephraim, or adopted into the house of Israel. Israel is still leading the church. Furthermore we read in the BOM in 2 Nephi 29:6 "Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?" It was because of the house of Israel that the Bible went out to the Gentiles.

So I guess I'm saying I don't get the point of the OP.

[Zakuska]

Another contradiction in the "inerrant" Bible.

You would think that Luke the Heavenly dictograph could do something as simple as keeping his story straight.

[Calm]

You would think that Luke the Heavenly dictograph could do something as simple as keeping his story straight.

While I understand the point you are making Zak, the flippancy you are using conveys a lack of respect for the Bible and its authors that I know you don't have. You might want to exercise a little more care for those who don't know you as well.

[brightpath]

So... what you are saying if I am reading this right, is that if the Israelities had not rebelled against Christ, that God the Father would never have attempted to give salvation unto the Gentiles, but just let them rot in ignorance?

Possibly but I'm not saying this Paul is saying this in Romans 11. As we know though, God blinded Israel so the Gentiles could have salvation come unto them. We are living in the time of the Gentiles. When this era closes true Israel will get the gospel back.

[brightpath]

Lest we forget Christ and his chosen Apostles were all part of the tribe of Israel. Christ's mission was to the descendants of Israel and they were the ones who led the church after his death. The Gentiles came to Christ through Israel. Who was it that killed the Apostles which led to the Great Apostasy? The Gentiles.

Now we know that the tribes of Israel, other than Judah, were scattered throughout the nations and current members of the church in their lineage are either direct descendants of those tribes, mainly Ephraim, or adopted into the house of Israel. Israel is still leading the church. Furthermore we read in the BOM in 2 Nephi 29:6 "Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?" It was because of the house of Israel that the Bible went out to the Gentiles.

So I guess I'm saying I don't get the point of the OP.

Here is the point, Israel fell into apostasy so salvation could come to the Gentiles just like Paul stated in Romans 11. The Gentiles would receive the gospel and have their turn until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Then it would go back to Israel thus fulfilling the prophecy, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Israel is not scattered among the earth. There are only 2 tribes scattered on the earth, Joseph(Lamanites) and Judah(Jews). The 10 tribes are together with Ephraim leading them. They are still lost unto the world. Only God knows where they are. Please refer to the title page of the BofM. There are only 3 groups of people on the earth. Lamanites(Joseph), Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles. A Gentiles that remains faithful will be adopted into the House of Israel.

[Deborah]

There are only 2 tribes scattered on the earth, Joseph(Lamanites) and Judah(Jews). The 10 tribes are together with Ephraim leading them.

Joseph isn't just the Lamanites. Joseph is also Ephraim to which most members of the church belong. Ephraim was scattered among all the nations. The lost tribes are currently being gathered as missionaries go out and find them in the world. Judah was the only tribe that remained a distinct people, no matter where they went. Most of us have Patriarchal blessings which tell us we are of the tribe of Ephraim. There have also been people with different lineages named. Not all these are "adopted" but are literal descendants of those tribes. My blessing is very specific in saying I came to this life as a descendant of Ephraim.

E. Russell M. Nelson says in his conference talk (gathering of Israel)

Here on earth, missionary work is crucial to the gathering of Israel. The gospel was to be taken first to the

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

So... what you are saying if I am reading this right, is that if the Israelities had not rebelled against Christ, that God the Father would never have attempted to give salvation unto the Gentiles, but just let them rot in ignorance?

If that is indeed the case we ought to congratulate the poster on his/her consistency.

After all, it would be the same type of theology that would damn the Buddhist or the Muslim who never knew of Christ nor had the opprotunity to do so...

[RickChown]

God's plan was always to bring salvation to all people!

Isa 49:6He says, "You will do more than restore the people of Israel to me. I will make you a light to the Gentiles, and you will bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

[ERayR]

Paul is quite clear on what he said in Romans 11. Because of the wickedness of all Israel not just the Jews, redemption came to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then God would have continued to work with them and the Gentiles would have remained strangers. Israel was prophesied to be a light unto the Gentiles.

What Paul is saying is that if Isreal had remained faithful the leadership would have remained with Isreal but when they didn't the leadership passed to the gentiles.

[ERayR]

Paul is teaching a mystery here to the Gentiles and us. Because of the wickedness of Israel, God turned to the Gentiles. This is why the Apostasy occurred. Look at the old testament. God had only worked with Israel. After they killed Christ, He then turned to the Gentiles. If Israel stayed righteous then the Gentiles would have never had a chance. We know in the old testament Israel kept to themselves and did not mix with the Gentiles. Pay attention to verse 26. Who is the deliverer to come out of Sion?

The gospel would still have been taken to the gentiles.

[ERayR]

There's only 2 groups of people in the world. The Gentiles and Israelites. Israel or the chosen lineage had the gospel and priesthood since the beginning. God worked with Israel until they crucified Christ and fell into apostasy on both continents. God then turned to the Gentiles but promised Israel in the last days the gospel would be returned to them. The last shall be first and the first shall be last. God had always just worked with his chosen seed throughout history up until he sent his apostles unto the Gentiles. Because of the fall of Israel and the apostasy, the Gentiles are now included as the covenant people of the Lord through adoption if they live righteously. As Paul declared in Romans, Salvation has come unto the Gentiles because of Israel's unbelief.

You are half right. There are only two groups but they are called believers and unbeleivers.