The Apostasy

[ERayR]

Possibly but I'm not saying this Paul is saying this in Romans 11. As we know though, God blinded Israel so the Gentiles could have salvation come unto them. We are living in the time of the Gentiles. When this era closes true Israel will get the gospel back.

So now you are saying that it is God's fault that the Isrealites rebelled? That he didn't want them to remain faithful?

[brightpath]

We all know that Gods plan worked out for everybody's salvation. Everyone that remains faithful will be saved. Israel is a light unto he Gentiles and through them(Israel), the Gentiles will be saved through adoption. Paul was just teaching this mystery to the Gentiles to be grateful for Israel. One has to wonder though if Israel stayed righteous what would have become to the Gentiles. Before Christs ascension God always worked with just Israel. With all the great civilizations happening throughout history like the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Assyrian etc... God just worked with Israel.

[brightpath]

Joseph isn't just the Lamanites. Joseph is also Ephraim to which most members of the church belong. Ephraim was scattered among all the nations. The lost tribes are currently being gathered as missionaries go out and find them in the world. Judah was the only tribe that remained a distinct people, no matter where they went. Most of us have Patriarchal blessings which tell us we are of the tribe of Ephraim. There have also been people with different lineages named. Not all these are "adopted" but are literal descendants of those tribes. My blessing is very specific in saying I came to this life as a descendant of Ephraim.

E. Russell M. Nelson says in his conference talk (gathering of Israel)

This article outlines the history of the scattering: scattering of Israel

Ephraim is with the lost ten tribes in the north. Only God knows where they are. They will not be gathered until the New Jerusalem is built.(see 3 Nephi 16-21). The only 2 tribes on earth are Joseph(Lamanites-Native Americans), and Judah(Jews). We can trace these 2 tribes by their records. Joseph(Book of Mormon) and Judah(Bible). If Ephraim is present on earth where are their scriptures? Please refer to the title page of the Book of Mormon on the groups of people om earth. Moroni states the Book of Mormon is written to the Lamanites who are a remnant of the house of Israel(Joseph) and also to Jew and Gentile. Notice the rank and number of groups. 1-Lamanites 2-Jews 3-Gentiles. If Ephraim was present on earth then Moroni would have included them in the title page. Moroni addresses all the people on the earth through these 3 groups.

[ELF1024]

Ephraim is with the lost ten tribes in the north. Only God knows where they are. They will not be gathered until the New Jerusalem is built.(see 3 Nephi 16-21). The only 2 tribes on earth are Joseph(Lamanites-Native Americans), and Judah(Jews). We can trace these 2 tribes by their records. Joseph(Book of Mormon) and Judah(Bible). If Ephraim is present on earth where are their scriptures? Please refer to the title page of the Book of Mormon on the groups of people om earth. Moroni states the Book of Mormon is written to the Lamanites who are a remnant of the house of Israel(Joseph) and also to Jew and Gentile. Notice the rank and number of groups. 1-Lamanites 2-Jews 3-Gentiles. If Ephraim was present on earth then Moroni would have included them in the title page. Moroni addresses all the people on the earth through these 3 groups.

**eyeroll**

So where are they then? Kolob? I think you've been watching too much sci-fi.

Ever consider that "Jews" as Moroni used it could mean the ENTIRE house of Israel and not just Judah?

[Deborah]

Ephraim is with the lost ten tribes in the north.

Ephraim per quotes above is scattered throughout the nations and is being gathered by the missionaries. CFR that Ephraim is lost as you say.

[brightpath]

Ephraim per quotes above is scattered throughout the nations and is being gathered by the missionaries. CFR that Ephraim is lost as you say.

Ephraim is lost unto man. God knows where Ephraim and the 10 tribes are. The title page of the BofM is very clear. There are only 3 groups of people on earth, including 2 tribe of Israel. Quote"Written to the Lamanites(Native Americans-Manasseh-Joseph) who are a remnant of the House of Israel",also to Jew(Judah) and Gentile(rest of the world). God himself directed a prophet to write these words. He knows where the 10 tribes are already. They have their own scriptures and prophets. Israel was always commanded to keep records. If Ephraim is present like you say then where are their records? Where is their visitation of Christ recorded? In 3 Nephi Jesus told the Nephites he needs to visit the lost 10 tribes and that in the latter days they will all have their records together as one.

[Yirgacheffe]

We all know that Gods plan worked out for everybody's salvation. Everyone that remains faithful will be saved. Israel is a light unto he Gentiles and through them(Israel), the Gentiles will be saved through adoption. Paul was just teaching this mystery to the Gentiles to be grateful for Israel. One has to wonder though if Israel stayed righteous what would have become to the Gentiles. Before Christs ascension God always worked with just Israel. With all the great civilizations happening throughout history like the Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Assyrian etc... God just worked with Israel.

But didn't God promise Abraham that through him ALL nations would be blessed?

[Deborah]

The title page of the BofM is very clear. There are only 3 groups of people on earth, including 2 tribe of Israel.

You have a very limited interpretation. At the time Mormon wrote the title page Ephraim and remnants of the other tribes were lost among the Gentiles. It is ridiculous to say there were only 3 groups, which is not what Mormon was saying. The BOM was written for all people and that is what is expressed in naming the Lamanites, Jews and Gentiles which covers everyone. This in no way implies that Israel wasn't scattered among the nations and later remarks by GA's have confirmed this. You obviously have ignored the quotes already given on this. As I previously stated people get Patriarchal blessings which name their tribe and Ephraim is prevalent among them.

From lineage

In view of the foregoing statements, we can see that the lineages declared in patriarchal blessings are almost always statements of actual blood lines; they are not simply tribal identifications by assignment.

President Joseph Fielding Smith made it clear that a majority of the members of the Church today are descendants of Israel and thus of Abraham:

[LeSellers]

Ephraim is lost unto man. God knows where Ephraim and the 10 tribes are.

While this is true, as far as it goes, it is also very misleading.

Out of 100 blessings in Chile, 60 were of Ephraim and 40 of Manasseh. From 100 blessings given in Uruguay, 21 were of Ephraim, 76 were of Manasseh, and 3 from other tribes. In North America nearly all Indians are shown to be of Manasseh. The sifting of the blood of Joseph and his sons Ephraim and Manasseh to all parts of the world is nothing short of miraculous. And it is likewise obviously an act of Providence that the Latter-day Saints being brought into the Church in all parts of the world are overwhelmingly of the blood of Joseph.

[brightpath]

But didn't God promise Abraham that through him ALL nations would be blessed?

Of course he did. As I stated earlier salvation is for everybody now, but Israel is the chosen seed. Paul was just telling the Gentiles in Romans 11, salvation has come unto them because of the unbelief of Israel. Christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, mraning he spent his ministry among Israel. He sent his apostles to the Gentiles.

[brightpath]

You have a very limited interpretation. At the time Mormon wrote the title page Ephraim and remnants of the other tribes were lost among the Gentiles. It is ridiculous to say there were only 3 groups, which is not what Mormon was saying. The BOM was written for all people and that is what is expressed in naming the Lamanites, Jews and Gentiles which covers everyone. This in no way implies that Israel wasn't scattered among the nations and later remarks by GA's have confirmed this. You obviously have ignored the quotes already given on this. As I previously stated people get Patriarchal blessings which name their tribe and Ephraim is prevalent among them.

From lineage

Will you please cite scriptural references for the Book of Mormon, Bible, and Pearl of Great Price that back up your theory. Again read 3 Nephi chapters 16-21. Moroni didn't include the other tribes in the title page because God knows they are not scattered throughout the world. They are lost unto man but not unto the Lord. They are in a place where they have their own scriptures, their own prophets, and they had their own visitation of Christ to them. Answer my questions if Ephraim is present. Where are their scriptures? Where are their prophets? Where is their record of Christ's visitation to them after his resurrection?

[Deborah]

Will you please cite scriptural references for the Book of Mormon, Bible, and Pearl of Great Price that back up your theory.

Since you have already disregarded the many quotes already given regarding the lost tribes there doesn't seem much point. However, 1 Nephi 22 talks a about the scattering and makes clear that they are lost only to those in Jerusalem. Also you do realize that the BOM is referred to as the stick of Ephraim.

4 And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away; and they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away.

Hosea 7:8 Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Isaiah 9:21 Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh: and they together shall be against Judah. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

D&C 133:30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

(Pretty hard to do if Ephraim is nowhere to be found)

D&C 113:4 Behold, thus saith the Lord: It is a servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph, on whom there is laid much power.

D&C 27:5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

[brightpath]

Since you have already disregarded the many quotes already given regarding the lost tribes there doesn't seem much point. However, 1 Nephi 22 talks a about the scattering and makes clear that they are lost only to those in Jerusalem. Also you do realize that the BOM is referred to as the stick of Ephraim.

Uh the past quotes were not scriptural. The scriptures you gave are vague at best. The BOM is the stick of Joseph, mainly Manasseh through Lehi. There was some Ephraimite blood through Ishmael though. So that would make the Lamanites from both tribes of Joseph. If you are not Lamanite you cannot claim the BOM as being a record of your forefathers. The stick of Judah(Bible) and the stick of Joseph,mainly Manasseh(BOM). The 10 tribes are lost according to Christ in 3 Nephi and will only come after the New Jerusalem is built. they are not gathering right now. Zion is not established yet. In 3 Nephi Christ visited the 10 tribes with Ephraim at its head. They have their own prophets and own records that will be united with the Bible and BOM after Zion is built.

[brightpath]

Hosea 7:8 Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

This scripture is referring to Ephraim mixing their beliefs with Gentile customs and idol worship, not returning unto the Lord. Your Isaiah quote is referring to how Joseph and Judah despise each other. Nothing about mixing and scattering.

[Palerider]

Since you have already disregarded the many quotes already given regarding the lost tribes there doesn't seem much point. However, 1 Nephi 22 talks a about the scattering and makes clear that they are lost only to those in Jerusalem. Also you do realize that the BOM is referred to as the stick of Ephraim.

James E. Talmage

"The tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living?aye, some here present?who shall live to read the records of the Lost Tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon, even as the Lord hath predicted; and those records, which the tribes lost to man but yet to be found again shall bring, shall tell of the visit of the resurrected Christ to them, after He had manifested Himself to the Nephites upon this continent. For, as not one jot or tittle of the Law has been permitted to fail, so surely no jot or tittle of the Gospel shall go unfulfilled.

I have heard it said that the predictions relative to the coming of the Christ are to be explained in a figurative way, that he is to dwell in the hearts of men and that is the second advent. Verily, the Christ shall come in person and shall be seen of the righteous and shall stand upon the earth and reign as rightful King and Lord and shall send forth the law for the government of the world."

Isn't it Mormon tradition that though Ephraim is somewhat scattered throughout the nations that the lost 10 tribes are a defined people (with their own prophets and scriptures) hidden somewhere on the earth and known only to God?

[Palerider]

Uh the past quotes were not scriptural. The scriptures you gave are vague at best. The BOM is the stick of Joseph, mainly Manasseh through Lehi. There was some Ephraimite blood through Ishmael though. So that would make the Lamanites from both tribes of Joseph. If you are not Lamanite you cannot claim the BOM as being a record of your forefathers. The stick of Judah(Bible) and the stick of Joseph,mainly Manasseh(BOM). The 10 tribes are lost according to Christ in 3 Nephi and will only come after the New Jerusalem is built. they are not gathering right now. Zion is not established yet. In 3 Nephi Christ visited the 10 tribes with Ephraim at its head. They have their own prophets and own records that will be united with the Bible and BOM after Zion is built.

I think most LDS Prophets believe that the 10 tribes (when they appear) will receive their blessings at the hands of Ephraim who is already gathered.

Wilford Woodruff

Journal of Discourses

4:231

"Upon the return of the Ten Tribes, they will come to Zion, receive their Priesthood, blessings, and endowments and be crowned under the hands of the children of Ephraim."

[Deborah]

Isn't it Mormon tradition that though Ephraim is somewhat scattered throughout the nations that the lost 10 tribes are a defined people (with their own prophets and scriptures) hidden somewhere on the earth and known only to God?

It may be a tradition but isn't what has been taught in more recent talks, although there may still be a group yet to come forth. Ephraim however is clearly present and in fact holds the keys to the gathering that is taking place. That there may be other records of other people is not unlikely and we may yet see more things come forth.

In light of this we have this recent discovery: Lost Jewish tribe

[Palerider]

It may be a tradition but isn't what has been taught in more recent talks, although there may still be a group yet to come forth. Ephraim however is clearly present and in fact holds the keys to the gathering that is taking place. That there may be other records of other people is not unlikely and we may yet see more things come forth.

In light of this we have this recent discovery: Lost Jewish tribe

I can see why most current LDS leaders would want to avoid the earlier teachings. Kind of awkward.

Great article........too bad the "Lamanite" DNA doesn't show up so profusely and in a similar manner.............Also I think the "fact" of the keys of gathering being held by one singular organization is quite debatable, but that is for another day

[brightpath]

I don't know where that Mormon tradition started but if we read the BOM in 3 Nephi Christ gives us a chronological order. He says the gathering of Joseph(Lamanites) on the American continent will take place first. Then the adopted Gentiles and Lamanites will build the New Jerusalem together followed by the lost tribes, city of Enoch, then Christ coming to Zion(New Jerusalem). When this takes place then 2 Nephi 29 will be fulfilled. Judah(Bible) and Joseph(BOM) will have the records of the lost tribes and the lost tribes will have the records of Judah and Joseph. Again, there are only 3 groups of people on earth today according to the title page of the BOM. The Lamanites-Native Americans(Manasseh-Joseph-Remnant of Jacob), the Jews(Judah), and the Gentiles. So if you are not Jew or Native American then you are a Gentile. This was revealed to Joseph Smith in his bedroom by God through Moroni 3 separate times. This revelation is where the Wentworth Letters came from. So getting back to the original topic, Yes Joseph Smith did say the Native Americans are the Lamanites(Tribe of Joseph).

[brightpath]

It may be a tradition but isn't what has been taught in more recent talks, although there may still be a group yet to come forth. Ephraim however is clearly present and in fact holds the keys to the gathering that is taking place. That there may be other records of other people is not unlikely and we may yet see more things come forth.

In light of this we have this recent discovery: Lost Jewish tribe

God has LED the 10 tribes away and only he knows where they are. They are not scattered among us and they certainly are not being gathered right now. Please read 2 Nephi 29 particularly versus 12-13. 3 Nephi 15:15-20, 3 Nephi 17:4, 3 Nephi 21:26, Ether 13:11, D&C 110:11, D&C 133: 25-27.

[ElfLord]

God has LED the 10 tribes away and only he knows where they are. They are not scattered among us and they certainly are not being gathered right now. Please read 2 Nephi 29 particularly versus 12-13. 3 Nephi 15:15-20, 3 Nephi 17:4, 3 Nephi 21:26, Ether 13:11, D&C 110:11, D&C 133: 25-27.

You sure about that?

Amos 9

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain cfall upon the earth

Sure sounds like they are among us to me.

[Palerider]

You sure about that?

Amos 9

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain cfall upon the earth

Sure sounds like they are among us to me.

I agree. The Book of Mormon and LDS leadership have only added to the confusion regarding the lost tribes and the gathering of Israel. They are sadly only partially correct in their teachings.

[brightpath]

You sure about that?

Amos 9

8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord.

9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain cfall upon the earth

Sure sounds like they are among us to me.

Amos is talking about Judah and Joseph being scattered. There was also small pockets as well that were scattered but the majority of Israel was led away and only God knows where they are. The scriptures I gave you say the lost tribes were LED away. I will believe what Jesus Christ himself taught us in 3 Nephi. If all of Israel is scattered then where are their prophets? Where are their scriptures? In 2 Nephi 29 it clearly states the Jews and Nephites will have the lost tribes records and the lost tribes will have the Jews and Nephite records.

[Deborah]

Amos is talking about Judah and Joseph being scattered.

Joseph is Ephraim.

[brightpath]

Joseph is Ephraim.

Answer the above question! Where are the lost tribes prophets and scriptures? Christ taught us in 3 Nephi the order of events. The gathering of the 10 tribes will not take place until Zion the New Jerusalem is built. The sign given by Christ is the BOM going forth to the Lamanites from the Gentiles. This is where we are at right now. Joseph is Manasseh and Ephraim. The Lamanites have both tribes running through their veins. Lehi-Manasseh and Ishmael-Ephraim. The true Ephraimites are with the lost 10 tribes waiting to come.