Adam-God teachings

[baddonkey]

So is Adam Kadmon thought of as a created being, or as the Creator? I'm a little confused.

[cdowis]

Would be very interested in that reference when you are able to get it.

This goes back to the days where we had compuserve forum on Mormonism. I remember a post where someone related that their grandmother was in a nursing home. She told them that BY had visited their area and had a conversation with her father where he said that he was going to play a great joke on the saints.

This whole thing is really iffy, including whether Adam-God was that joke. But I see it as a plausible explanation for what happened, especially considering the background of playing a joke with JS and admonishing the saints not to believe everything the leaders taught.

[CQUIRK]

That private interview quote shows very clearly the negligible depth of Pres. Kimball's understanding of Brigham Young's Adam-God teachings. For instance, did Brigham Young teach what Spencer W. Kimball would consider false doctrine when he taught that Adam "had begotten all the spirits that was to come to this earth, and Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world"? Did Brigham Young teach what Spencer W. Kimball would consider false doctrine when he taught that Adam "was not made of the dust of the ground of this Earth, but he was made of the dust of the earth where he lived, where he honored his calling, believed in his Saviour, or Elder Brother, and by his faithfulness, was redeemed, and got a Glorious Resurrection"?

Interesting. You have the references?

[kamenraider]

Interesting. You have the references?

"had begotten all the spirits that was to come to this earth, and Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world"

--Brigham Young, February 1, 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner, SLC: The Smith-Pettit Foundation 2009, 5:3104.

"was not made of the dust of the ground of this Earth, but he was made of the dust of the earth where he lived, where he honored his calling, believed in his Saviour, or Elder Brother, and by his faithfulness, was redeemed, and got a Glorious Resurrection"

--Brigham Young, October 8, 1854, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner, SLC: The Smith-Pettit Foundation 2009, 2:850.

[kamenraider]

This goes back to the days where we had compuserve forum on Mormonism. I remember a post where someone related that their grandmother was in a nursing home. She told them that BY had visited their area and had a conversation with her father where he said that he was going to play a great joke on the saints.

This whole thing is really iffy, including whether Adam-God was that joke. But I see it as a plausible explanation for what happened, especially considering the background of playing a joke with JS and admonishing the saints not to believe everything the leaders taught.

It doesn't make sense to me that Brigham Young would expect people who go to the temple to be willing to avoid all lightmindedness, etc., and then choose to perpetuate what he simply considered to be a joke by having it taught in the lecture at the veil there.

[HiJolly]

So is Adam Kadmon thought of as a created being, or as the Creator? I'm a little confused.

Nathair's post defining Adam Kadmon was quite excellent. Of course, each of the traditions highlighted in that definition have deep and very involved teachings regarding A.K. that don't necessarily agree. But the underlying concept is there, and in that there is an underlying unity.

In a nutshell, the answer to your question is that he is the creator, and the created. He is God, and the source (or, in other words, the Father) of all intelligence in the manifest universe.

Sound familiar?

I can just imagine Joseph going on & on in describing A.K to BY and BY's head swimming, but he's still gamely trying to keep up mentally with all he's being told. Whew.

HiJolly

[jmordecai]

Here is a more exhaustive list of quotes, in chronological order.

April 9, 1852

Brigham Young, 22nd Annual General Conference, JOD 1:50-51

When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken

[MDalby]

Obviously you're quite uneducated about this.

The AG theory cannot be viewed in black and white. Many of BY's sermons on the matter are quite vague and open to interpretation; many of the quotes on Adam-God can be twisted one way or the other.

Want me to bring up the quotes and links to reliable websites that discuss the matter?

Another thing, we don't view Prophets or Leaders in our church as infallible, but BY's talks on Adam is a poor subject to base your accusations/theories on.

I have spent some time trying to understand what BY taught regarding what some lump together under this Adam-God theory. I know that BYs statements at times appear to contradict each other. Was BY wrong or do we misunderstand what he was trying to teach.

Which of the following statements are true? Are they in contradiction? Does one statement make the other incorrect?

• Absence makes the heart grow fonder
  
• Out of sight, out of mind.
  

Both are correct when the correct point of view is taken into account. I know what Joseph Smith taught and what the prophets today teach and we understand today regarding the Godhead is true. I don't understand what BY was trying to teach. He is either incorrect or we don't understand it.

MD

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have spent some time trying to understand what BY taught regarding what some lump together under this Adam-God theory. I know that BYs statements at times appear to contradict each other. Was BY wrong or do we misunderstand what he was trying to teach.

Which of the following statements are true? Are they in contradiction? Does one statement make the other incorrect?

• Absence makes the heart grow fonder
• Out of sight, out of mind.

Both are correct when the correct point of view is taken into account. I know what Joseph Smith taught and what the prophets today teach and we understand today regarding the Godhead is true. I don't understand what BY was trying to teach. He is either incorrect or we don't understand it.

MD

Ogden Kraut makes the case that the idea of "Adam-God", as understood by "apostate and fundamentalists", originated from Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, using as his source the TPJS. It was written by Kraut in response to Mark E. Peterson's talk "Adam: Who is he?"

[MDalby]

Ogden Kraut makes the case that the idea of "Adam-God", as understood by "apostate and fundamentalists", originated from Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, using as his source the TPJS. It was written by Kraut in response to Mark E. Peterson's talk "Adam: Who is he?"

Yep, I am aware of Kraut's stance. I don't use Kraut as a source for my understanding.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yep, I am aware of Kraut's stance. I don't use Kraut as a source for my understanding.

OK.

[kamenraider]

Ogden Kraut makes the case that the idea of "Adam-God", as understood by "apostate and fundamentalists", originated from Joseph Smith, not Brigham Young, using as his source the TPJS. It was written by Kraut in response to Mark E. Peterson's talk "Adam: Who is he?"

Ah yes, here's an amusing excerpt from Ogden Kraut's November 13, 1980 letter of response to Elder Petersen regarding his talk:

Your fellow apostle, Bruce R. McConkie, wrote:

"Cultists and other enemies of the restored truth, for their own peculiar

purposes" are supporting "false assumptions" concerning Adam.

I surely do not want to get mixed up with those kinds of people, so I

would appreciate some answers from you concerning this very important subject.

False Assumptions

The first "false assumption" I would like to get clarified is the

validity of Brigham Young's conference talk in which he said that Adam is our

Father and God.

A. You have made considerable effort to clarify both the wording and

interpretation of that sermon as recorded in the Journal of Discourses. In

your book, Adam; Who is He? you devoted three pages to Elder Charles Rich who

wrote a slight variation from the text written in the Journal of

Discourses on the critical portions of that controversial sermon. You said

that Rich's account was correct because, "Elder Rich, who was present and

heard the sermon. Hence the correction that he made." (p. 17)

However, in the book on his biography Charles C. Rich, Mormon General and

Western Frontiersman, it is reported that Charles Rich was in San Bernadino on

March 24, 1852, making preparations to leave for Salt Lake City. This is

substantiated in the Hosea Stout Journal which says, "Wedn. 21st April

1852...Gen. Rich and some 15 others arrived today from California by the South

route--all well." This is also confirmed in the Deseret Weekly, May 1, 1852

and in the LDS Journal History of April 21st. So it was satisfying to note

that in the 1979 edition of your book you corrected your first edition and

stated that Rich was "not" in attendance when Brigham Young's sermon was

delivered. But it was rather amusing to read where you said the sermon was

written by C. C. Rich "in his own hand," when the fact is that it was in the

handwriting of his son Ben E. Rich, who had not yet been born!

Joseph Fielding Smith also contended for years that Brigham Young was

misquoted in that sermon; but at the same time his fellow apostle, John A.

Widtsoe, contended that it was not a misquotation but rather a wrong

"interpretation." My, what a tangled web we weave!

B. Elder George D. Watt was in the audience to hear Brigham Young's talk

and he was a professional stenographer who wrote the entire sermon for

publication. Many others who heard that sermon wrote it down the same way that

Watt did.

C. One and a half years later President Young's sermon was published in

the Millennial Star (Vol. 15:769-770) which was identical to the one published

in the Journal of Discourses. If it had been transcribed with such an error in

the Journals, wouldn't it have been corrected by the editors of other Church

periodicals?

D. If Brigham Young would have made such a preposterous blunder in his

speech, or in the transcription of it, wouldn't he have sent out a sermon to

correct it shortly afterwards? In one of his sermons he said that he never

preached a sermon and sent it out to be read that the people couldn't call it

scripture. Wouldn't he have corrected this one in particular since it was a

conference sermon?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

For me, if I was to again believe in the LDS teaching of eternal progression, Adam-God would have to be an integral part- It is the only thing that makes the whole thing work, IMO.

Adam was made Lord over all the earth. I think this is what BY was trying to say.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Adam was made Lord over all the earth. I think this is what BY was trying to say.

After carefully looking into the subject I arrived at a different conclusion. Adam-God is what initially drew me towards fundamentalism when I was fresh out of the LDS Church, because it made the whole "eternal progression" thing come together. I have since, obviously, changed my opinions on the whole matter of "eternal progression" and "becoming like God", believing that there is only one true and living God. But because of the things I found when researching early on, if I was to return to that belief, Adam-God, as understood by "apostates and fundamentalists" would have to be part of the whole scheme for me personally. Again, for ME. I am not telling anyone else that they have to accept my premise. (Which people often think you are doing when you disagree with their own POV)

[kamenraider]

Adam was made Lord over all the earth. I think this is what BY was trying to say.

Joseph Smith had already said (TPJS pg. 157-158) that Adam "presides over the spirits of all men" and holds the "keys of the universe" and also that "The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of Man and organized them. He (Adam) is the head, was told to multiply", so there would be nothing at all unusual or controversial about Adam-God if Brigham Young really did not intend for it to mean any more than that.

I think it's interesting that Bruce R. McConkie said in his Seven Deadly Heresies talk that "the devil keeps this heresy alive as a means of obtaining converts to cultism". If it is so obviously false and "contrary to the whole plan of salvation" then how could it be imagined to be an asset to the devil in his supposed quest to get people to "enter polygamous relationships that destroy their souls"?

One would wonder as well what the precise time was in which the eternal law of celestial plural marriage switched from being (per Joseph Smith) "the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth" without obedience to which "no man can ever attain to the fullness of exaltation in celestial glory", to being a means by which people who live it "are living in adultery, have already sold their souls to Satan, and (whether their acts are based on ignorance or lust or both)... will he damned in eternity."(Mormon Doctrine, 1st ed., pg. 523.)

[CQUIRK]

"had begotten all the spirits that was to come to this earth, and Eve our common mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world"

--Brigham Young, February 1, 1877, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner, SLC: The Smith-Pettit Foundation 2009, 5:3104.

"was not made of the dust of the ground of this Earth, but he was made of the dust of the earth where he lived, where he honored his calling, believed in his Saviour, or Elder Brother, and by his faithfulness, was redeemed, and got a Glorious Resurrection"

--Brigham Young, October 8, 1854, The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, ed. by Richard S. Van Wagoner, SLC: The Smith-Pettit Foundation 2009, 2:850.

And you also have the full talks, or letters, from which you got those quotes from, right?

Please paste them, I would like to check them out, unless there's a link to a website which has the full manuscripts on there?

[CQUIRK]

And knock off the quote mining.

[kamenraider]

Um, CQUIRK, if "quote mining" refers to using quotes out of context so as to distort the original meaning, and if you havent checked out the full talks that I quoted from above, then how in the world can you accuse me of "quote mining"?

Here's the one from 1877 which comes from the journal of L. John Nuttall (The Oct. 8, 1854 talk takes up like 18 pages in my copy of The Essential Brigham Young, so I don't think it would be practical to post the whole thing here. It's on pgs. 86-103 in case you should want to get the book from a library.):

February 7, 1877

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited (acquainted) with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilege of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed Etc. some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve -- this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the woman. she conceived the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Moses's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh bones and sinues. but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their vains as the action of life. Adam was not under transgression until affter [sic] he partook of the forbidden fruit this was necessary that they might live together that man might be. the woman was found in transgression not the man -- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and firstlings of the flocks -- This as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.

[Four lines without any writing on them.]

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and came in the spirit to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work on this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world from whence they came.

I felt myself much blessed in being permitted to associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me --

[Tribunal]

How can Adam (the same man who was in the Garden of Eden and fathered the generations of man) also be Michael (the Archangel) when in the Book of Enoch it says that Michael (the Archangel) met with Adam (the same man who was in the Garden of Eden and fathered the generations of man)?

[erichard]

And you also have the full talks, or letters, from which you got those quotes from, right?

Please paste them, I would like to check them out, unless there's a link to a website which has the full manuscripts on there?

Hi Quirk,

Here is a link to one of the best Adam-God discourses BY ever recorded:

Oct 8, 1854

Some excerpts:

I believe in the eternities of worlds, saints, angels, kingdoms, and Gods: In eternity without beginning. I believe the Gods never had a beginning, neither [did] the formation of matter, and it is without end; it will endure in one eternal round, swimming in space, basking, living, and moving in the midst of eternity.

[jmordecai]

Here are additional quotes that demonstrate how others ascertained BY's sermons (including a future prophet of the church).

My link

[StuddleyG]

It seems that Brigham Young is saying that Adam, rather than Elohim, is the Father of our spirits and the father of Jesus Christ. It appears that he is giving roles, that we today attribute to Heavenly Father, to Adam. I think he also believed that all human beings will become Adams and Eves as part of eternal progression.

I wonder... Did Joseph Smith ever specifically teach that God the Father fathered our spirits? I am not aware of him ever doing so. Joseph taught that we were intelligences that God organized, but did he teach that he was the literal father of our spirits?

This may implicate that the understanding of God the Father has evolved in the church over time.

[CQUIRK]

February 7, 1877

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited (acquainted) with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilege of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed Ec. some think he was made like an adobic and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came to it(toil). and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve -- this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the woman. she conceived the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Moses's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh bones and sinues. but upon partaking of the fruits of the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their vains as the action of life. Adam was not under transgression until affter [sic] he partook of the forbidden fruit this was necessary that they might live together that man might be. the woman was found in transgression not the man -- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and firstlings of the flocks -- This as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.

[Four lines without any writing on them.]

Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and came in the spirit to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work on this earth. they did not lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit world from whence they came.

I felt myself much blessed in being permitted to associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me --

That's much better, but you still misquoted the word I underlined in bold face that was in part of your previous post. Plus judging by the same quote I got from this website- http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/journals/nuttall.htm -there are several other misspellings and misquoted words that sets your above quote apart from the one on the website.

Plus, you forgot to include the previous paragraph to your 'full' quote-

Wed 7 At Temple. I officiated as Recorder at the font - palso [sic] in the Sealing Room in anointing where Josiah Guile Hardy & his wife Ann Denston Hardy - had their 2 anointing [p. 20] also Mathew Clayton - also Sarah Johnson Macdonald anointed to A F Macdonald his wife Elizabeth Graham McD. as proxy - rpFanny [sic] Van Cott Macdonald was also anointed to A. F. Mcdonald - W. Woodruff anointing. H. W. Bigler held the horn. 386 Baptizms. J. L. Smith - D. H. Cannon confirmed 185. A. H Raleigh 61. H. W. Bigler 77. D. D. McArthur 63 - wrote to my wife Elizabeth & son Leonard - after supper went to President Youngs present. Prest Young. W. Woodruff. E. Snow. B. Young Jr. I. G. Bleak. E. M Greene & myself. works in the Temple being under consideration Prest Young was filled with the spirit of God & revelation & said when we got our washings and anointings under the hands of the Prophet Joseph at Nauvoo we had only one room to work in with the exception of a little side room or office were we were washed and anointed had our garments placed upon us and received our New Name. and after he had performed these ceremonies. he gave the Key Words signs, tokens [sic] and penalties. then after we went into the large room over the store in Nauvoo. Joseph divided up the room the best that he could hung up the veil, marked it gave us our instructions as we passed along from one department to another giving us signs. tokens. penalties with the Key words pertaining to those signs and after we had got through. Bro Joseph turned to me (Prest B Young) and said Bro Brigham this is not arranged right but we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed, and I [p.21] Thur. 8 at the Temple officiated as Recorder [sic] wish you to take this matter in hand and organize and systematize all these ceremonies with the signs. tokens penalties and Key words I did so and each time I got something more so that when we went through the Temple at Nauvoo I understood and Knew how to place them there. we had our ceremonies pretty correct -

In the creation the Gods entered into an agreement about forming this earth. & putting Michael or Adam upon it. these things of which I have been speaking are what are termed the mysteries of godliness but they will enable you to understand the expression of Jesus made while in Jerusalem. This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. We were once acquainited [acquainted] with the Gods & lived with them but we had the privilige of taking upon us flesh that the spirit might have a house to dwell in. we did so and forgot all and came into the world not recollecting anything of which we had previously learned. We have heard a great deal about Adam and Eve. how they were formed &c some think he was made like an adobie and the Lord breathed into him the breath of life. for we read "from dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return" Well he was made of the dust of the earth but not of this earth. he was made just the same way you and I are made but on another earth. Adam was an immortal being when he came. on this earth he had lived on an earth similiar to ours [p. 22] he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. and when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in. and when Adam and those that assisted him had completed this Kingdom our earth he came toil. and slept and forgot all and became like an Infant child. it is said by Moses the historian that the Lord caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and took from his side a rib and formed the woman that Adam called Eve-this should be interpreted that the Man Adam like all other Men had the seed within him to propagate his species. but not the Woman. she conceives the seed but she does not produce it. consequently she was taken from the side or bowels of her father. this explains the mystery of Mose's dark sayings in regard to Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve when they were placed on this earth were immortal beings with flesh. bones and sinues. but upon partaking of the fruits of [p. 23] the earth while in the garden and cultivating the ground their bodies became changed from immortal to mortal beings with the blood coursing through their veins as the action of life= Adam was not under transgression until affter he partook of the forbidden fruit this was nesesary that they might be together that man might be. the woman was found in transgression not the Man- Now in the law of Sacrifice we have the promise of a Savior and man had the privilege and showed forth his obedience by offering of the first fruits of the earth and the firstlings of the flocks- this as a showing that Jesus would come and shed his blood.

[Four lines without any writing on them.] Father Adam's oldest son (Jesus the Saviour) who is the heir of the family is Father Adams first begotten in the spirit World. who according to the flesh is the only begotten as it is written. (In his divinity he having gone back into the spirit World. and come in the spirit to Mary and she conceived for when Adam and Eve got through with their Work in this earth. they did not [p. 24] lay their bodies down in the dust, but returned to the spirit World from whence they came.

I felt myself much blessed in being peraitted [sic] permitted to Associate with such men and hear such instructions as they savored of life to me-

Kudos to erichard, the Wiki article says this about the Nuttall's entry above-

Prefacing the paragraph quoted, L. John Nuttall records in his private journal for Wednesday 7 February 1877 that after serving that day in the St. George Temple and after taking his evening meal, he attended a meeting with President Brigham Young, Wilford Woodruff, Erastus Snow, Brigham Young Jr, I.G. Bleak, and E. M. Greene. (See paragraphs 1A and 1B below.) This meeting was held in President Young

[CQUIRK]

Hi Quirk,

Here is a link to one of the best Adam-God discourses BY ever recorded:

Oct 8, 1854

Interesting, but this is on a anti-Mormon site I notice, and apparently had this disclaimer on the heading of the page-

In this version of Brigham Young's October 8, 1854,discourse, we have attempted to correct typographical, spelling, and punctuation errors. Occasionally, we have corrected certain grammatical errors for easier reading. In addition, we have added words to help clarify a sentence, or to make the sentence grammatically correct--these insertion are found inside the [ ] symbols. In places where words were unintelligible we have used an underline that approximates the amount of space the unreadable words take up in the typed copy.

And the First sentence of this talk is-

I propose to speak upon a subject that does not immediately concern your or my welfare.

I also notice how he uses the terms 'and I reckon' various times in the sermon when going into details; he seems to give more of his opinion then preach official doctrine in the talks. And these talks were given at a time before Church doctrine was sent down in stone as it is today.

You might read the Wikipedia article on Adam-God to see how others view the matter.

I did, and it is very well written with little bias. Thanks

[CQUIRK]

In fact the Wiki link is so well researched that I think I'm going to edit Post # 73