The Deseret Alphabet: A Secret Language from Brigham Young?

[OnHech]

So I have recently done research on the Mid 1800 Deseret Alphabet that was created by Brigham Young. I found it really interesting so I'm posting a link to my article. It's always fun to decipher things such as this - one of the four books published by The University of Deseret (Now University of Utah) which helps you learn the alphabet.

Thoughts?

To see the article (more of the History, an explanation of why and how, and more neat pictures) see my blog post below.

The Sign of Jonas: Church History Q&A: Did Brigham Young really try to implement a secret Deseret Language?

Following is an example of a book published in the Deseret Alphabet along with the key.

[selek]

Thoughts?

Spamming for your blog (prohibited by board rules) notwithstanding, I have one question:

How can an alphabet which was published to the entire territory, was freely available to Jew, Saint, and Gentile alike (simply for the asking), and was scheduled for use in the public education system qualify as "secret" in any sense of the word?

[Pahoran]

So I have recently done research on the Mid 1800 Deseret Alphabet that was created by Brigham Young. I found it really interesting so I'm posting a link to my article. It's always fun to decipher things such as this - one of the four books published by The University of Deseret (Now University of Utah) which helps you learn the alphabet.

Thoughts?

To see the article (more of the History, an explanation of why and how, and more neat pictures) see my blog post below.

The Sign of Jonas: Church History Q&A: Did Brigham Young really try to implement a secret Deseret Language?

Following is an example of a book published in the Deseret Alphabet along with the key.

It's an interesting article. It might benefit from a little proofreading, though. I'm fairly certain that 1969 doesn't come before 1877. I'm accustomed to thinking "convalescent" means "recovering from an illness," and is not usually used in connection with rules of spelling. And I admit, to my shame, that I've never heard of the "New York Harold."

Also, some of your examples of "phonetic spelling" betray a distinctly regional (i.e. non-universal) flavour.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Uncle Dale]

So I have recently done research on the Mid 1800 Deseret Alphabet...

Some historians who [sic - view?] Deseret Alphabet as a further attempt for the already

isolated early Latter-day Saints to further distance themselves from the rest of society

by having an exclusive writing system to keep their secrets and to talk among themselves

which at the same time prohibiting the population from learning or exploring the outside world.

I can only imagine the possible results.

In the 1950s and 1960s the mainland Chinese "simplified"

their character system -- resulting in a population which

could no longer read the publications smuggled in from

Taiwan (where the old writing system had been retained).

The Taiwanese, on the other hand, could more or less make

out the meaning of their Communist cousins' publications.

Had the Deseret alphabet been implemented in pre-1858 Utah,

it might have stood a chance of becoming the peculiar people's

exclusive writing system. Utahans, raised with that system

(and perhaps the JST as their Bible) would have been very

isolated from the outside world -- very controlable by their

leaders, as a nation unto themselves.

After 1858 that sort of thing became less practical -- and,

with the coming of the railroad, I think impossible.

I can barely imagine Utah boys, raised under that system,

trying to fill missions, in lands still using Roman letters.

The missionaries would have been at a great disadvantage,

unless they first of all took the trouble to learn standard

English writing.

A strange experiment, that went nowhere...

UD

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I found this line of the article fascinating...

Although it can be seen as a failed project sponsored by the church and the government at the time it does not reflect on Brigham Young as a prophet as he never claimed it was from a divine source, furthermore regardless of the source the failure was primarily in the reception of the instruction and message.

Had it been successful you know it would've been "inspired by God" and "proof" Brigham Young was a prophet.

[Pahoran]

I found this line of the article fascinating...

Had it been successful you know it would've been "inspired by God" and "proof" Brigham Young was a prophet.

And to think that you recently got snippy at me about what you were pleased to call "sarcastic, snide little accusations."

Brigham succeeded at a great many things. Who here have you seen touting his successes, or any of them, as "inspired by God" and "proof" Brigham Young was a prophet?

Regards,

Pahoran

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Pahoran-

I believe you know what I mean, and it wasn't that it would be shouted from the rooftops. But it would be seen as proof of his office as prophet. Just as the success of the PEF is offered up as proof that GBH was inspired, not that some former business men had a good idea. If the PEF was not successful it would receive a passing mention as an experiment by the church.

The Seventh-Day Adventist have had several very successful ventures with much fewer members, does that serve as proof of God's guiding hand in their programs or evidence that their leadership has divine approval from God?

[Benjamin McGuire]

You might look here for a similar attempt:

http://books.google.com/books?id=dhxLdimSOS4C

It is very similar, leading some to conclude that it may have been a source for the idea. Barton was for a short time a convert to Mormonism (after he had produced his first alphabets).

[Pahoran]

Pahoran-

I believe you know what I mean, and it wasn't that it would be shouted from the rooftops.

I believe I know what you mean, too. I believe you intended to set up a straw man.

In the which, you succeeded.

But it would be seen as proof of his office as prophet. Just as the success of the PEF is offered up as proof that GBH was inspired

By whom?

If the PEF was not successful it would receive a passing mention as an experiment by the church.

The Seventh-Day Adventist have had several very successful ventures with much fewer members, does that serve as proof of God's guiding hand in their programs or evidence that their leadership has divine approval from God?

Ask someone who subscribes to your straw man; I don't.

Regards,

Pahoran

[OnHech]

It is very similar, leading some to conclude that it may have been a source for the idea. Barton was for a short time a convert to Mormonism (after he had produced his first alphabets).

Many believe that is where he got it.

Spamming for your blog (prohibited by board rules) notwithstanding, I have one question:

How can an alphabet which was published to the entire territory, was freely available to Jew, Saint, and Gentile alike (simply for the asking), and was scheduled for use in the public education system qualify as "secret" in any sense of the word?

It doesn't. Yet some still say it does.

And it's true i did "spam" my blog (meaning posted a link to it), but I wrote it because the subject interests me and I want feedback and more information/perspectives from other people who actually know about it. It wasn't merely a "give me views" post. Is this wrong?

It's an interesting article. It might benefit from a little proofreading, though. I'm fairly certain that 1969 doesn't come before 1877. I'm accustomed to thinking "convalescent" means "recovering from an illness," and is not usually used in connection with rules of spelling. And I admit, to my shame, that I've never heard of the "New York Harold."

Also, some of your examples of "phonetic spelling" betray a distinctly regional (i.e. non-universal) flavour.

Regards,

Pahoran

Thanks Pahoran, fixed the typos.

1969-1869 (Typo)

convalescent - convoluted (spell check)

Harold - Herald (Canadian ignorance)

[cdowis]

The Seventh-Day Adventist have had several very successful ventures with much fewer members, does that serve as proof of God's guiding hand in their programs or evidence that their leadership has divine approval from God?

And why would you think that we do not accept these individuals as inspired by God?

This is a common myth among nonLDS, that we are so exclusionary that we think that no one can be inspired but members of the church -- that the Lord only speaks to us.

This is silly.

[mapman]

What I think is interesting about the Deseret Alphabet is the fact that it preserves the pronunciations of Book of Mormon names in the 19th century. For example Mormon was "Marmun" and Deseret "Deezeret".

[Brade]

Brings back memories. When I was on my mission I learned the Deseret alphabet, and for a period of time all of my journal entries were in Deseret.

[OnHech]

And why would you think that we do not accept these individuals as inspired by God?

This is a common myth among nonLDS, that we are so exclusionary that we think that no one can be inspired but members of the church -- that the Lord only speaks to us.

This is silly.

Well Said!

Brade you learned the alphabet well enough to just write things in it? Good on you! I first learned of this on my mission as I came across it in a book. I photocopied that pictures and showed one of my companions later on, he spend his whole personal study and breakfast decoding it, it was funny (although probably not a very well used hour and a half that was supposed to be for gospel study). He kept on interrupting me asking for help.

[blackstrap]

English spelling is so messed up that it could use a good phonetic "cleansing" Students struggle with spelling and are taught the rules ( and the many exceptions) well into the 8th grade.Some never get it straight(as is often demonstrated on this board). Students of Spanish contend with spelling for only a couple of years and then it is onward and upward.Very few exceptions.

Just as there is a better typing system than qwerty ,there should be a better spelling system than the current one. Texting does not count !!!

I know, I'm spitting into the wind again !

[LifeOnaPlate]

Brings back memories. When I was on my mission I learned the Deseret alphabet, and for a period of time all of my journal entries were in Deseret.

Seriously? That's awesome!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Brings back memories. When I was on my mission I learned the Deseret alphabet, and for a period of time all of my journal entries were in Deseret.

I had a companion that wrote and spake Klingon. Does that count for anything? Lol.

[Brade]

Seriously? That's awesome!

I think I stumbled on it while reading A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At the time I thought it was a neat way to keep people from reading my journal and my meeting notes. Of course, since I don't remember how to read or write Deseret anymore, I've ended up keeping myself from reading some of my journal entries and notes.

[Jason]

English spelling is so messed up that it could use a good phonetic "cleansing" Students struggle with spelling and are taught the rules ( and the many exceptions) well into the 8th grade.Some never get it straight(as is often demonstrated on this board). Students of Spanish contend with spelling for only a couple of years and then it is onward and upward.Very few exceptions.

Just as there is a better typing system than qwerty ,there should be a better spelling system than the current one. Texting does not count !!!

I blame the Normans. Dutch, German, and other languages from the same family that have less French influence are much easier to spell.

And an alphabet doesn't constitute a language, so the thread title is flawed.

[OnHech]

And an alphabet doesn't constitute a language, so the thread title is flawed.

If you looked at the article you would realize that I do not believe it is a language. Further more there was a question mark at the end of the thread title as in "Is it a secret language?". So not flawed

[asbestosman]

I think I stumbled on it while reading A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At the time I thought it was a neat way to keep people from reading my journal and my meeting notes. Of course, since I don't remember how to read or write Deseret anymore, I've ended up keeping myself from reading some of my journal entries and notes.

The Deseret Alphabet was fun for me too. I never wrote more than my name with it for BYU activities, but I do carry around a Deseret Alphabet editions of the Triple Combination on my phone. See http://homepage.mac.com/jhjenkins/Deseret/Triple.pdf

The missionary objection is one major reason I don't believe the Deseret Alphabet would be an effective means to keep Mormons ignorant. Furthermore, the Deseret Alphabet is quite simple to learn. If someone wanted to publish something specifically for Mormons, it would be fairly simple to do so. It's not really a very good cipher since at best it might be a substitution cipher. These are trivially cracked in cryptography. No Urim and Thummim or Rosetta Stone required. Just do frequency analysis and a few educated guesses.

[Brenda]

It would have been nice if the Deseret Alphabet had caught on and spread across the world. Heaven help anyone who has to take on English as a 2nd language.

[OnHech]

It would have been nice if the Deseret Alphabet had caught on and spread across the world. Heaven help anyone who has to take on English as a 2nd language.

There have actually been several attempts to construct an easier universal language which would be more intuitive and logical. In fact Esperanto, a language constructed and published in 1887 has up to 1,000 native speakers and as many as 2,000,000 fluent speakers. It is primarily a European effort though. The problem is, not one likes to change. But there are other methods similar to the deseret to lean a language. For example missionaries going to Asia often learn Romanized Chinese, Japanese, or Korean so they can quickly understand how the language works rather than dealing with a bunch of unknown symbols. Although it is different in the fact that they are working with characters they already know it is an example of ways to make the learning the language easier. For English the greatest obstacle is generally not the letters themselves but the complex unintuitive grammatical format and rules.

[Brenda]

There have actually been several attempts to construct an easier universal language which would be more intuitive and logical. In fact Esperanto, a language constructed and published in 1887 has up to 1,000 native speakers and as many as 2,000,000 fluent speakers. It is primarily a European effort though. The problem is, not one likes to change. But there are other methods similar to the deseret to lean a language. For example missionaries going to Asia often learn Romanized Chinese, Japanese, or Korean so they can quickly understand how the language works rather than dealing with a bunch of unknown symbols. Although it is different in the fact that they are working with characters they already know it is an example of ways to make the learning the language easier. For English the greatest obstacle is generally not the letters themselves but the complex unintuitive grammatical format and rules.

True. I lead the group that hates to change! I remember when they tried to teach us the metric system in school, a MUCH better system than we use. I simply want all changes to happen before I'm born, so that I only have to learn it once. Is that too much to ask?

(Example: I still think in months when someone is pregnant. She says she's 14 weeks along . . . and I'm struggling to do the conversion in my head.)

[Stargazer]

Brings back memories. When I was on my mission I learned the Deseret alphabet, and for a period of time all of my journal entries were in Deseret.

Oh, wow. I had something similar going on. I learned the old German Gothic handwriting and started writing my missionary journal in it! In English, mostly. Turned out later that learning it was important, because much of my ancestry is German, and researching old German records has been greatly assisted by having learned it. On the other hand, there are going to be hard moments to some of my descendants when they try to read my missionary journal!