End of times.

[tana]

"Bad enough that it might be so, without you wishing it" A favorite quote from a favorite movie (Robb Roy)

Do the believers in the Abrahamic religions wish for/look forward to the Apocalypse? And if so, is that in any way detrimental to society?

Is it written in stone, and must be played out according to prophecy? Or can society change its course and avoid the crash?

I'm guessing this has most likely been covered on here already numerous times.....And I'm certainly not wanting to bring any heavy hitters down on me here by asserting something like; I believe that it might be.....detrimental.

I've been out of the loop now for several years.....Is the feeling out there still that the end of days is nigh at hand?

Curt

[Uncle Dale]

...

Do the believers in the Abrahamic religions wish for/look forward to the Apocalypse?

...

When is THAT supposed to happen?

The day I see all the armies of the world gathered in the

Valley of Megiddo -- and two prophets lie dead in the streets

of Jerusalem for three days, with all the world watching --

then perhaps I'll wonder a little about such stuff.

Better to worry about an asteroid hitting the planet, or our

own pollution destroying our grandkids' world. At least such

threats we might try and do something to alleviate.

The Book of Revelation is not in my canon, and I only read

Daniel to understand PAST history.

Uncle Dale

[tana]

Has there been any consensus yet on here as to how exactly God sees the future?

If he does it thru having a perfect knowledge of the state of all things present and then simply predicts the effect of the cause....To me, that takes a "god" out of the equation...as anyone with a super computer could be god.

Is he manipulating space/time to see the future but not effect it....thru his scientific knowledge? Can god see his own future?

I'm really not trying to be flippant here....but every scenario I can come up with, is reproducible by an advanced mind.....If God is a scientist. The alternative being god by nature is "effect".....without cause.

[Uncle Dale]

Has there been any consensus yet on here as to how exactly God sees the future?

...

In Latter Day Saint scriptures God foresees the future conditionally

and is prone to say such things as "If ye repent, then shall ye prosper."

In Calvinst theology God has a perfect knowledge of the future and

personally directs all good activities -- His "sovereign grace" being

the ultimate force in the universe, and the future "set in stone."

In Eastern Orthodox theology God is indescribable, and Almighty

and Omniscient -- being a reality beyond time-space existence. In

that situation God causes the world to be, but God's knowledge or

control of the future are beyond description.

So, I suppose it all depends upon which sect's theology you might

want to examine.

I'd say that God is both within and without time-space -- but that

we human beings are incapable of describing any of that. Whatever

the future is meant to be, it will be -- and we each have some

input into shaping that future, but nothing like full control.

UD

[Tribunal]

In talking with some scientist-friends of mine they believe God sees the universe through a multi-dimensional lense. Where as we can look down on a pond and see fish swimming around, we know the options the fish has in its daily life because the pond isn't very big. To us the choices of the fish are limited because their pond is limited.

And so God can look down on our world and see us humans, and know the options we have in our daily lives. To God our choices are limited because our universe is limited. And since God knows us pretty well, He can discern how the book will end.

[MDalby]

Is it written in stone, and must be played out according to prophecy? Or can society change its course and avoid the crash?

Curt

Curt,

One thing to keep in mind in regards to the prophecies of the last days is the following:

Do not suppose that God willfully causes that, which for His own purposes, he permits.

(Boyd K. Packer, The Play and the Plan)

Some prophecy is conditional and some prophecy is not conditional.

NON-CONDITIONAL PROPHECY

In Matthew, chapter 24, we learn of 'famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes....' (Matt. 24:7) The Lord declared that these and other calamities shall occur. These particular prophecies seem not to be conditional. The Lord, with his foreknowledge, knows that they will happen. Some will come about through man

[ELF1024]

"Bad enough that it might be so, without you wishing it" A favorite quote from a favorite movie (Robb Roy)

Do the believers in the Abrahamic religions wish for/look forward to the Apocalypse? And if so, is that in any way detrimental to society?

Is it written in stone, and must be played out according to prophecy? Or can society change its course and avoid the crash?

I'm guessing this has most likely been covered on here already numerous times.....And I'm certainly not wanting to bring any heavy hitters down on me here by asserting something like; I believe that it might be.....detrimental.

I've been out of the loop now for several years.....Is the feeling out there still that the end of days is nigh at hand?

Curt

It's my impression that the Temple has to be rebuilt in Israel before the end of times is going to happen. So until that blessed event takes place, I'm not all that concerned.

[MDalby]

It's my impression that the Temple has to be rebuilt in Israel before the end of times is going to happen. So until that blessed event takes place, I'm not all that concerned.

It is not an impression, it is a fact that the Jerusalem Temple will be rebuilt before the Second Coming of the Savior to the Jews at Armageddon and to the world in glory. But, there are plenty of events in the "end of times" that can occur prior to the building of hte temple in Jerusalem.

Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be healed. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the temple, Etc.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make his appearance.

(Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5: 336-37)

MD

http://LDSLastDays.com

[Uncle Dale]

It's my impression that the Temple has to be rebuilt in Israel before the end of times is going to happen. So until that blessed event takes place, I'm not all that concerned.

In times when Islamic radicals can direct flying bombs unto

large buildings -- when Islamic Pakistan has atomic weapons --

when Islamic Iran is threatening to wipe Israel off the map --

it might not be such a good idea to start tearing down the

great Dome of the Rock mosque that occupies the temple mount.

But, if the Israelis begin that deconstruction, I might actually

consult the scriptural prophecies again, to see where the

consequences of such a daring act are spelled out.

UD

[CA Steve]

Is the feeling out there still that the end of days is nigh at hand?

Curt

Do modern day LDS view the imminency of the end of days the same way LDS did in the time of Joseph Smith? I think in the early years of the church the thinking, at times, was in terms of less than a decade. Certainly the closer you get to the date the church was founded the shorter the expected time frame was. I do not think anyone now would predict that short of a time frame.

[Uncle Dale]

...I do not think anyone now would predict that short of a time frame.

In 1832 Joseph Smith, Jr. was sending prophecies to a Gentile newspaper

in Rochester, New York -- saying that people should flee to Zion in Missouri,

to avoid the terrible tribulation about to encompass and change the world.

My family obeyed the commandment and fled there as instructed -- only

to find Jackson County in the hands of their enemies and no sign that

Christ was about to return to earth, for his millennial reign.

Seems that Smith may have gotten a little ahead of himself, but later took

a less literalistic view of "end times" -- after failing to "redeem Zion."

UD

[Lightbearer]

Has there been any consensus yet on here as to how exactly God sees the future?

You will probably get a lot of various opinions on the omniscience of God but my take on it is that God knows all things and there is nothing that He does not know as stated here:

(Abraham 2:8 ) "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee."

How He does it is speculation on my part, but I believe a clue is given here:

(D&C 130:6-11) "The angels do not reside on a planet like this earth; But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord. The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ's. Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word."

Hope this helps.

[CV75]

"Bad enough that it might be so, without you wishing it"

I can't speak for all believers in the Abrahamic religions, but personally I do look forward to the "Second Coming." The destruction of the wicked is to accompany/precede that event, and while it is written in stone, I think the number of wicked and thus the number destroyed can be reduced and minimized through the Church's progress. I think there is a sense that "the end of days is nigh at hand," and that idea can be correctly taken to a number of levels (personal, global, temporal, spiritual, etc.).

[Uncle Dale]

I can't speak for all believers in the Abrahamic religions, but personally I do look forward to the "Second Coming." The destruction of the wicked is to accompany/precede that event, and while it is written in stone, I think the number of wicked and thus the number destroyed can be reduced and minimized through the Church's progress. I think there is a sense that "the end of days is nigh at hand," and that idea can be correctly taken to a number of levels (personal, global, temporal, spiritual, etc.).

I'd be curious to know which one of these answers comes closest

to your view of the future:

Christ will begin his millennial rule of the earth at

the Temple in Jackson County, Missouri...

1. ( ) within the next ten years

2. ( ) within the next hundred years

3. ( ) within the next thousand years

4. ( ) later than all the above...

UD

[LifeOnaPlate]

The only End Times I've been thinking about recently is the eels album.

[CV75]

I'd be curious to know which one of these answers comes closest

to your view of the future:

Christ will begin his millennial rule of the earth at

the Temple in Jackson County, Missouri...

1. ( ) within the next ten years

2. ( ) within the next hundred years

3. ( ) within the next thousand years

4. ( ) later than all the above...

UD

#2 is closest to my view. Why you are curious to know that? What would be your take had I chosen 1, 3 or 4?

[Uncle Dale]

#2 is closest to my view. Why you are curious to know that? What would be your take had I chosen 1, 3 or 4?

First of all, I find it odd that modern Mormons

still think of Jackson County, Missouri as being

the center stake of Zion. Even we RLDS have

begun to realize that is problematic doctrine.

But my main curiosity was whether or not you'd

invoke realized eschatology, or the rapture, or

some other "none of the above" type of solutions.

Had I asked the same question of Joseph Smith, Jr.

in 1832-33, I'd guess his answer would have been

measured in months, and not even in years.

As for myself, I do not see Jesus sitting on a

golden throne in an Independence Temple for a

thousand years, reigning over the pacified planet.

Others may believe as they wish -- it is a fascinating

topic, and equally fascinating to know that many people

stake the fate of their own souls upon their beliefs.

UD

[CV75]

First of all, I find it odd that modern Mormons still think of Jackson County, Missouri as being the center stake of Zion.

Had I asked the same question of Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1832-33, I'd guess his answer would have been measured in months, and not even in years.

It is unfortunate that the early saints failed in building this temple according to the prophecies, but the prophecies acknowledge this and still indicate that it will be built someday. The fulfillment of the prophecies of the role of the Independence temple in the Second Coming, the role of New Jerusalem located in Jackson County, MO in the Millennium, the preparing and timing of such, and the multiple ways and the order in which the Lord appears (and when and to whom) relative to these and other locales do not seem unfulfillable to me. Benefiting from the early saints' experience, I do take such things one day at a time and attend to the tasks at hand so as not to do anything that would contribute to the delay of any of this, or simply cause me to miss out on it when it does.

[tana]

Does anyone remember it like I do? I grew up in the Olympia WA area, 10 years old in 1970. Many generation LDS on my maternal side. I remember hearing constant discussion of end of times scenarios. From anarchy in the streets, with roving gangs of bad guys hunting down lists of Mormons, to seeing from Temple to temple and gathering in Jackson County.... Two years food storage was because the end is near, and not because it's simply just prudent.

I have to say that that seriously effected me...at ten and twelve years old....I absolutely believed that I did not need to worry about marriage, college, vocation, as it would all be over soon...ish.

I remember at the time of my mission, 79-81 a chain type letter going around that was just the rage. If I remember right it had a certain day in 85' pegged as the one....The planets were all aligned....blah, blah...it even had supposedly a GA's endorsement....

So, yes, I do feel like it is detrimental to society to look forward to/hope for the end of all....and to teach it to/force it on ones children.

[CV75]

So, yes, I do feel like it is detrimental to society to look forward to/hope for the end of all....and to teach it to/force it on ones children.

I joined the church in college, and served a mission from 78-80 after graduating. I remember similar stories as a new convert, but considering the various sources (not all LDS), and how they explained their views, and their track record with other views, I knew there had to be a lot more to it than that.

I did have the sense that "it" would happen around the year 2000-2030, and the older I get, the further out that speculation goes, but must say I never counted on it or planned my life around it. I think I recall the leaders saying not to plan our temporal lives around these kind of dates or prophesied events. Spiritually it's good to be prepared--you never know which day is your personal end time. Despite my attitude, my grown daughter recently told me that as a teenager, she thought for a time, based on what I had explained, that "the end of the world" would come when she was 16 (the year 2000) and she would die and the Millennium would begin! Needless to say I felt awful to hear that I led her that conclusion--parents really have to be careful about what they say or what is coming across--and grateful she turned out to be a well-adjusted adult. She said it didn't bother her, she just kind of accepted it and went on with her interests, which is borne out in her going on to college, graduate school, marriage, baby, etc. *Whew*

[tana]

I joined the church in college, and served a mission from 78-80 after graduating. I remember similar stories as a new convert, but considering the various sources (not all LDS), and how they explained their views, and their track record with other views, I knew there had to be a lot more to it than that.

I did have the sense that "it" would happen around the year 2000-2030, and the older I get, the further out that speculation goes, but must say I never counted on it or planned my life around it. I think I recall the leaders saying not to plan our temporal lives around these kind of dates or prophesied events. Spiritually it's good to be prepared--you never know which day is your personal end time. Despite my attitude, my grown daughter recently told me that as a teenager, she thought for a time, based on what I had explained, that "the end of the world" would come when she was 16 (the year 2000) and she would die and the Millennium would begin! Needless to say I felt awful to hear that I led her that conclusion--parents really have to be careful about what they say or what is coming across--and grateful she turned out to be a well-adjusted adult. She said it didn't bother her, she just kind of accepted it and went on with her interests, which is borne out in her going on to college, graduate school, marriage, baby, etc. *Whew*

I appreciate your candidness CV. I certainly have no solution as to the proper way to raise ones children.....To have integrity, morals, ethics.....without forcing upon them ones own beliefs.