The Wicked Lamanites' Incompetence

[Gohan]

The account of Alma's people escaping and eluding pursuit

at almost the same time as Limhi's escape, makes this

sound a lot like fiction -- full of improbabilities and

coincidences -- a sort of antique soap opera.

The causes behind Limhi being able to escape and Alma being able to escape are slightly different there. Limhi's people escaped, generally, through stratagem.

Alma and his people were told by the Lord when to leave. He placed a deep sleep upon their Lamanite taskmasters, take that as you will, enabling Alma and his people to get about a day's headstart when they reached the Valley of Alma. When the Lamanites awoke and began the pursuit, the Lord warned Alma again to flee, and told him he would stop the Lamanites in that valley, that they'd pursue them no further. How'd the Lord stop them? We don't know, some suggestions as to weather events earlier seem plausible. Then they continued another twelve days before getting to Zarahemla.

And not too much of a soap opera, there's no one pregnant...that we know of. O_o

[Uncle Dale]

...

not too much of a soap opera

...

Anybody have a video clip, of this part, as acted out

in the Hill Cumorah Pageant?

UD

[Gohan]

Anybody have a video clip, of this part, as acted out

in the Hill Cumorah Pageant?

UD

That part was in the Pageant? It's been a few years, can't quite remember. Either way though, that screenplay is just that, a screenplay. Written by Orson Scott Card too, if memory serves.

[Uncle Dale]

That part was in the Pageant?

...

Just after the King Benjamin speech -- at least in the

1947 program guide for Palmyra visitors.

Or, maybe I've got my sources confused again?

Sorry about that,

UD

[Gohan]

That would've been kind of cool to see actually. It probably was in there, I know they've changed the script a few times, the most recent being in 2000. I went in 2006, I think, for Youth Conference. Quite a cool experience.

But anyway, back to the discussion!

A thought that I just had, could near-simultaneous escapes also have lead to confusion among the Lamanites? Or Lamanites/Amulonites in this case? Forces going everyway, tracks becoming confused?

[Uncle Dale]

...

A thought that I just had, could near-simultaneous escapes also have lead to confusion among the Lamanites? Or Lamanites/Amulonites in this case? Forces going everyway, tracks becoming confused?

If we choose to add things into the text, then I suppose practically

any oddball explanation might logically be entertained.

As the text itself reads (without adding on to it), I see it as

resembling fiction and unconvincing as a true ancient MesoAmerican

record. However, new preColumbian texts are being deciphered

every year -- so perhaps something similar will one day be published

in the non-sectarian professional journals. If so, I'll reconsider.

UD

[wenglund]

A number of years ago a budy and I went hunting for Elk in the foothills near Oakley, Utah.

We arrived at our planned hunting spot just before daybreak.

Moments later we heard a thunderous sound down below us. And, as a sliver of light shown over the mountain tops, we could just make out a herd numbering several hundred elk.

My buddy sent me down the hill on my three-wheleer in order to cut the herd off and send them up the hill towards my im--and this so he could shoot his pick of the herd.

When I got towards the bottom of the hill, and several yards from cutting off the stampeding herd, I stopped and so did the herd.

For nearly a minute, I stared eye-to-eye with several of the bulls in the front, and the sight was so magnificent to me that I couldn't bear to head them off towards their potential death. I don't know, but I figured that the bulls sensed that I was no longer a danger to them, and with a slight bow of their head (as if to say thanks), they continued on in their stampeed, and proceded around the bend to presumably head up the next draw and on up into the hilltops--which were mostly socked in with fog.

Naturally, my buddy was upset when I rejoined him, though he laughed when I gave him my explanation.

Anyway, undaunted, he and I attempted to track the large group of animals.

However, even with all the hooves in the herd, we could find little if any traces of where they were headed, and as we preceeded in the direction that we conjectured they had gone, which took us into the fog, we could no longer track them, and decided to turn back because of the real possibility of our getting lost.

Now, I don't know if an objective reader will believe what I just wrote. After all, the objective reader will invariabley think that there must have been numerous hoove marks and animal droppings all over the hill side and marking the path of the elks' excape, and thus the objective reader would find it incredulous to think that my buddy and I would not only lose track of that large herd of elk, but also think it unbelievable that we would find ourselves in a position where could easily get lost.

Yet, that is what really happened--though it matters little to me if the so-called objective reader believes it or not.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

I wonder if an objective reader would find this modern-day account unbelievable:

On September 10 [1886] word reached Fort Wallace a large war party of Cheyenne had attacked a wagon train near Sheridan City, a settlement with a population of 150 a few miles to the east. The scouts drew seven days' rations and rode out. Grover found the Indians' trail almost immediately, and the party followed it in a northwesterly direction. But the Indians employed their standard technique of dividing and sub-dividing their numbers every few miles, thus scattering their trail.

The scouts soon lost track of the Indians...(url=http://www.eiaonline.com/history/islandofdeath.htm]Island of Death

Naw, that couldn't have happened.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

For nearly a minute, I stared eye-to-eye with several of the bulls in the front, and the sight was so magnificent to me that I couldn't bear to head them off towards their potential death. I don't know, but I figured that the bulls sensed that I was no longer a danger to them, and with a slight bow of their head (as if to say thanks), they continued on in their stampeed, and proceded around the bend to presumably head up the next draw and on up into the hilltops--which were mostly socked in with fog.

Maybe the Lamanite army as a whole did not track the people of Limhi, but only their scouts. Maybe the scouts took pity on the people and left them alone, or were bribed, or were too low on the totem pole to have any incentive to bring them back if they or the army did not get a fair share of the tribute the king had been raking in for years. Also, fog or storm or superstitions could have impeded or discouraged them from finding any interrupted tracks.

[Uncle Dale]

Maybe the Lamanite army as a whole did not track the people of Limhi, but only their scouts. Maybe the scouts took pity on the people and left them alone, or were bribed, or were too low on the totem pole to have any incentive to bring them back if they or the army did not get a fair share of the tribute the king had been raking in for years. Also, fog or storm or superstitions could have impeded or discouraged them from finding any interrupted tracks.

A number of logical explanations can be thought up, for the

Lamanites not being able to capture the fleeing Nephites,

The Lamanites' inability to find their own way back to Nephi

is less explicable. All they had to do was to send a few

dozen scouts back uphill, to re-locate the trail they had

been following (and had added to with their own passage).

Sooner or later one of those scouts would have happened upon

the road back home -- or, at least their dogs would have.

But, as I said earlier, for those who have a testimony of the

book, the only possible explanations are variations on the

notion that it is correct history.

I am not bound by that constraint, and so possess the mental

freedom to consider many more textual possibilities.

UD

[wenglund]

The Lamanites' inability to find their own way back to Nephi is less explicable. All they had to do was to send a few dozen scouts back uphill, to re-locate the trail they had been following (and had added to with their own passage)...UD

Perhaps this bit of stunning wisdom should be added to all outdoor safety manuals. Clearly, the way for anyone to keep from ever getting lost is to send scouts back to follow the trail from which the hikers have come. One would have to be quite incompetent, to the point of unbelievablity, to ever get lost.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Uncle Dale]

Perhaps this bit of stunning wisdom should be added to all outdoor safety manuals. Clearly, the way for anyone to keep from ever getting lost is to send scouts back to follow the trail from which the hikers have come. One would have to be quite incompetent, to the point of unbelievablity, to ever get lost.

Thanks, -Wade Emglund-

They all kept getting lost, in an area of many cities, which a Nephite could

cross, from sea to sea, in a day and a half. Strange, that.

Walk east or west for a day or two, and then follow the sea

coast line until you come upon some habitation...

So, if you have an army of say, 10,000 Lamanite warriors, what is lost by

sending out a few scouts? As you travel through the wildreness, why not

have scouts out in front, a rear guard, and a few scouts on the flanks?

At the very least, keep a line of communication open back to your leaders,

with a few runners going back periodically to relay news of troop movements.

Or, if the Lamanites neglected all of that, my cat once walked twenty miles

back home, after escaping the car at a roadside rest-stop.

Just follow the dogs back home, "up to Nephi." Watch which

way the sun moves in the sky. Notice the wind. Notice the birds.

Or, does archaeological evidence tell us that the preColumbians

had no hunting dogs?

UD

.

[wenglund]

They all kept getting lost, in an area of many cities, which a Nephite could cross, from sea to sea, in a day and a half. Strange, that.

Walk east or west for a day or two, and then follow the sea coast line until you come upon some habitation...

Of course you are right. No one has ever gotten lost within a day or two distance of coastlines and habitations. And, if there are any news reports claiming otherwise, they aren't to be believed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[CV75]

The Lamanites' inability to find their own way back to Nephi is less explicable.

From Ch. 23 it could be supposed that, not having any people of Limhi to bring back with them, they combed the off-trail wilderness in search of a suitable substitute, and also provide an excuse/alibi for their failure and delay, even while perhaps hiding, investing or spending their bribes. During this time they came across two suitable prizes, the people of Amulon and the people of Alma, both who would have lived in seclusion well off the beaten path. The Lamanites may well have been disoriented by this time, or may have simply been trying to "search for" Nephi using an alternate route in support of any alibi they may have concocted and/or to avoid others of the king's army. While Alma may have pointed them in the right direction (or did he?), Amulon may not have remembered where he was trying to go, either.

[CV75]

They all kept getting lost, in an area of many cities

Walk east or west for a day or two, and then follow the sea coast line until you come upon some habitation...

So, if you have an army of say, 10,000 Lamanite warriors...

At the very least, keep a line of communication open back to your leaders...

They were going to unknown places such as those in the wilderness where the peoples of Amulon and Alma could remain hidden from each other and any others that might do them harm.

They were not in a hurry to get back before finding a better substitute for the people of Limhi.

This "army" may have been a small unit, and the rest deployed in yet higher priority matters.

Communicate with your leaders unless you are hiding from them, could operate autonomously, or wouldn't be missed.

[cdowis]

I think Dale has brought up a good point -- can we trust the Book of Mormon to relate to us a real story, or does it have the obvious flaws of a fictional work.

I have read the BOM many times, and given this story and the others alot of thought on whether it made sense in the real world. I have also wondered about the reliability of the records from which Mormon drew his account -- perhaps there were exaggerations, and even some mythical elements to the stories. The BOM does not guarantee that every detail is authentic, and this particular story may have some mythology attached to it.

But that strengthens the text. It tells us that any mistakes are those of man, and gives us the feeling of the overall authenticity of the record, with all its blemishes..... in the details of stories, which are really not important to the overall purpose of the book ==>> to bring us to Christ.

So, Dale, thanks for the discussion. As I said, I have asked myself these questions myself, but you brought it out with more force than I had considered it.

It was fun, and instructive.

[webbles]

They all kept getting lost, in an area of many cities, which a Nephite could

cross, from sea to sea, in a day and a half. Strange, that.

Walk east or west for a day or two, and then follow the sea

coast line until you come upon some habitation...

I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are only a day or two from the shoreline. I think you are referencing Alma 22: 32 (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/22/32#32) but that is talking about the border between Bountiful and Desolation which is farther north than Zarahemla or Nephi. I doubt the Lamanite army was within a day or two of the coastline.

I'm also confused where you get the idea that it has many cities. Considering:

Land of Helaman is 8 days from the Land of Nephi (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/23/3#3)

Land of Helaman is 13 days from the Land of Zarahemla (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/24/20,25#20)

Land of Nephi is 40 (or many) days from the Land of Zarahemla (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/7/4#4,'>http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/7/4#4, http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/22/13#13) - since this is longer than the 21 days that Alma took, it probably means that they went a much less direct route and still didn't see any other cities.

So, it isn't looking like the area is pretty populated.

Plus, it doesn't look like there is much trade or communication between the two groups previous to this because Ammon and his group didn't know the route (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/7/4#4).

[Gervin]

with all its blemishes..... in the details of stories, which are really not important to the overall purpose of the book ==>> to bring us to Christ.

The purpose is in the way the text brings people to Christ. If mythology, then we should have a strong sense of cultural connection and, in an academic sense, interpretation of Jewish (or Mayan, or whatever) myths-making in the BOM context. Literary archetypes, and the such.

I would think a foundational question to ask is, if the BOM is potentially composed of fictional or mythological elements (and it sounds as if you believe it does), can any motifs be associated with 18th or 19th c. writing/culture ?

[cdowis]

The purpose is in the way the text brings people to Christ. If mythology, then we should have a strong sense of cultural connection and, in an academic sense, interpretation of Jewish (or Mayan, or whatever) myths-making in the BOM context. Literary archetypes, and the such.

They wre not Jews, as we understamd the post-exilic Jewish culture. They were Nephites who were separated from the Israelites for centuries, and so we should look for Nephite culture.

This is part of the mythology of the antimormons, to look for Jewish culture. We should be looking for Nephite culture, where, for example, they speak a language unknown to any other people. And we find that in mesoamerica.

I would think a foundational question to ask is, if the BOM is potentially composed of fictional or mythological elements (and it sounds as if you believe it does), can any motifs be associated with 18th or 19th c. writing/culture ?

Well, as I have repeatedly pointed out, we do find strong motifs from the twentieth century -- the mafia, the Taliban and Afghan war, the motifs of Chicago politics. It tells us about terrorists who are in caves and mountain hide-outs, and have a standing army attempting to take over the government.

These are much more common in the BOM than any supposed 18th century motifs.

[Gervin]

This is part of the mythology of the antimormons, to look for Jewish culture. We should be looking for Nephite culture, where, for example, they speak a language unknown to any other people. And we find that in mesoamerica.

I'm not aware of an identified Nephite culture in mesoamerica with their own language. Where would I go to read about that?

If you've found a Nephite culture in mesoamerica then it certainly has to reflect, to some extent, Jewish culture based on the repeated references to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses, known and practiced, would certainly be reflected in the culture.

[cdowis]

I'm not aware of an identified Nephite culture in mesoamerica with their own language. Where would I go to read about that?

You will find it in the written records in the pre-classic time period.

oops.... they have all been destroyed by the Catholic priests fearful of their contents. And the triumphant Lamanites probably did a pretty good job of destroying them as well.

If you've found a Nephite culture in mesoamerica then it certainly has to reflect, to some extent, Jewish culture based on the repeated references to the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses, known and practiced, would certainly be reflected in the culture.

And Mormon Word of Wisdom is certainly found throughout the culture of the United States. Right?

Anyway, most of culture is found in the written records. And you already know what happened to them. All we have left are building and the icons of the nonChristian majority who lived in mesoamerica. How much of Mormonism would you find among catholoic artifacts, for example. You find Mormonism in written records, not in the crucifix and the statures of the virgin Mary.

Gervin, you already know this, but your mind has been poisoned.

[Uncle Dale]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are only a

day or two from the shoreline....

Good point -- I never could keep the geography and distances straight.

I'm also confused where you get the idea that it has many cities.

...

I was under the impression that the Jaredites numbered in the many millions

and had literally covered the land in city-states -- that there were still

Jaredites alive when the Mulekites arrived -- that the Lehites found the

remnants of Jaredite domesticated animals in the forest when they arrived.

I was under the impression that it was almost impossible to wander about

for long, in the wilderness between Nephi and Zarahemla, without stumbling

upon one of these Jaredite cities.

My point was not that the cities were inhabited, but that they were a feature

upon the landscape -- no doubt inter-connected -- by which the wilderness

could be differentiated, sorted-out, or roughly mentally-mapped.

UD

.

[webbles]

Good point -- I never could keep the geography and distances straight.

I was under the impression that the Jaredites numbered in the many millions

and had literally covered the land in city-states -- that there were still

Jaredites alive when the Mulekites arrived -- that the Lehites found the

remnants of Jaredite domesticated animals in the forest when they arrived.

I was under the impression that it was almost impossible to wander about

for long, in the wilderness between Nephi and Zarahemla, without stumbling

upon one of these Jaredite cities.

My point was not that the cities were inhabited, but that they were a feature

upon the landscape -- no doubt inter-connected -- by which the wilderness

could be differentiated, sorted-out, or roughly mentally-mapped.

UD

.

I never got that impression. The Jaredites were to the north of Zarahemla (you know, land of Desolation). That is where all these cities and stuff would be. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/22/30-31#30). The Jaredites didn't build in the south part (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/10/21#21). So, the area between Zarahemla and Nephi isn't a really populated area.

[Uncle Dale]

I never got that impression. The Jaredites were to the north of Zarahemla (you know, land of Desolation). That is where all these cities and stuff would be. (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/alma/22/30-31#30). The Jaredites didn't build in the south part (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/10/21#21). So, the area between Zarahemla and Nephi isn't a really populated area.

So, if we draw a line from Nephi, down to Zarahemla, and pick

a point somewhere along the middle part of that line; how many

days' walk northward will it be, before any Jaredite artifacts

are encountered?

Should we suppose that the Jaredite tame goats and oxen

(neutered steers) migrated southward through the wilderness,

in order to be in the area where the Lehites discovered them?

UD

[webbles]

So, if we draw a line from Nephi, down to Zarahemla, and pick

a point somewhere along the middle part of that line; how many

days' walk northward will it be, before any Jaredite artifacts

are encountered?

Should we suppose that the Jaredite tame goats and oxen

(neutered steers) migrated southward through the wilderness,

in order to be in the area where the Lehites discovered them?

UD

If you draw a line from Nephi to Zarahemla and picked a point in the middle, to get the the Jaredites, you'd have to pass Zarahemla, pass Bountiful, pass the narrow neck of land and enter the Land of Desolation (I'm guessing at 20-30 days). I think what is confusing you is where it talks about Limhi sending men to find Zarahemla and instead finding the ruins of the Jaradites (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mosiah/21/25-27#25). When ever I read that, I pictured in my mind a group of men that missed Zarahemla and went farther north.

As for the the Jaradite animals migrating southward, I would suppose that considering that is what the Ether (and Moroni) says: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/9/31-33#31 and http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/10/19-21#19.