The Wicked Lamanites' Incompetence

[Uncle Dale]

And now it came to pass when the Lamanites had found that the people of Limhi had departed out of the land by night, that they sent an army into the wilderness to pursue them; and after they had pursued them two days, they could no longer follow their tracks; therefore they were lost in the wilderness....

The thousands of people of Limhi gather their cattle, sheep, pigs, dogs, etc.

and sneak out of their walled city by night. The Lamanites encircling the city

are all asleep and do not see or hear this mass departure.

Later, these sons of the forest, whose great vocation is stalking wild game

through the Meso-American wilderness, lose the trail of the Limhi people.

Think of it -- cows, pigs, goats, sheep, dogs and kids, all leaving their

droppings along the trail, and the Lamanite army has no idea where to look

for them -- cannot follow an entire city-state of refugees a few dozen miles

through Guatemala.

What dolts! Those Lamanite hunters -- who could not even locate the next

waterhole along the beaten path to Zarahemla!

Can we imagine the Sioux, or Cheyenne, or Pawnee, being so incompetent

as unable to follow the droppings of an animal herd?

Rare stuff, these sneaking-around-in-the-dark-in-Guatemala stories!

UD

.

[CA Steve]

Maybe a different way to look at it is the ability of BoM people to move thru areas with out leaving any evidence they were there.

[Uncle Dale]

Maybe a different way to look at it is the ability of BoM people to

move thru areas with out leaving any evidence they were there.

How do we move our flocks and herds, large quantities of provisions,

heavy weights of silver and gold along the beaten path to Zarahemla,

without any evidence of our passage?

For two days the skilled Lamanite trackers follow our path,

but then these expert trackers cannot guess where our lumbering

masses will move to.

"But," I hear somebody say, "the trail to Zarahemla may have been

narrow and obscure..."

So much the worse for our sons of the forest scouts, who cannot

detect the Limhi people cutting a broader path through the jungle.

They might have just closed their eyes and followed the barnyard

smell all the way to Mosiah's land.

Surely these seasoned hunters must have hung their heads in shame,

when they returned to King Laman, with the news that they could

not overtake even a pregnant Nephite wench in the rainforest.

Talk around the campfires must have been hushed for a generation

or more. Who dared speak of stalking a jaguar through the wilds,

when they could not detect a screaming Nephite brat a half dozen

miles ahead of their swift forest runners?

Shame! Shame on them...

UD

.

[ERayR]

Maybe a different way to look at it is the ability of BoM people to move thru areas with out leaving any evidence they were there.

Maybe a better way to look at it is that the evidence is there and you have no idea what your looking at.

[Brant Gardner]

It becomes a problem of how one reads a text. If we assume that every word in the Book of Mormon is divinely instituted, then all descriptions would be precise--and the Book of Mormon wouldn't have been written by humans as it claims to be. If, instead of reading it with a religious perspective, we read it as though it were any other historical text, then this particular description isn't as odd as it seems. I agree that the Lamanites would be terrible trackers if they couldn't find the trail of that many people moving with animals. However, the clue in the text is that we are told exactly why the Lamanites turned back. How was that information learned? What Nephite was eavedropping on the Lamanite leader's tent and heard the reason? As historical documents go, we have facts and the record of the facts. The fact was that the Lamanites turned back. The record didn't just list the fact, but added a reason. That is not surprising in human endeavors. We like reasons. However, this particular reason is most logically imputed after the fact and has only a statistical chance of being accurate.

The Lamanites already had an intact city that they could incorporate. They had lost some people, but people that were creating extra work for them to hold them. In a cost/benefit analysis, it is just as easy to say that the Lamanites gave up because it wasn't worth the chase.

[CA Steve]

Maybe a better way to look at it is that the evidence is there and you have no idea what your looking at.

Evidence is a funny thing, some people look a a hill and see a location for an epic battle while others look at the same hill and see nothing.

[Uncle Dale]

Maybe a better way to look at it is that the evidence is there and you have no idea what your looking at.

Thousands of animal footprints in the rainforest mud -- invisible.

Millions of flies following the herds and flocks -- invisible.

Pile upon pile of fresh droppings -- invisible.

Not a broken twig, nor a bent branch, nor a discarded corn-cob

to betray the passage of an entire Nephite nation.

The streams and waterholes pristine -- with no signs of domesticated

animal presence. No cooking fires -- no rear-guard of Nephite scouts --

no signs from the usual forest birds and animals of intruders having

recently moved through the forest.

And the idiot Lamanites -- unable to overtake slow-moving animals,

women and children. Recall that many of the Nephite men had died

in the recent wars -- it was women and children who were not only

outpacing the swift Lamanite runners, but confounding them as to

which direction might lead away from King Laman's minions.

The leaders of the Lamanite party needed only to have sent out

a hundred scouts in a hundred directions, after suddenly losing

the trail of the departing Nephites.

They were obviously not intelligent enough to accomplish even that.

Anybody care to cite a documented example of such a mass-escape?

UD

[cdowis]

The thousands of people of Limhi gather their cattle, sheep, pigs, dogs, etc.

and sneak out of their walled city by night. The Lamanites encircling the city

are all asleep and do not see or hear this mass departure.

Later, these sons of the forest, whose great vocation is stalking wild game

through the Meso-American wilderness, lose the trail of the Limhi people.

Think of it. The Nephites had weeks to prepare for their journey. They took food stock, water, shelter and fuel for an extended journey. They certainly had a rear guard to harrass the Lamanites, to slow them down.

Now let's compare the Lamanites. You claim that they were great hunters (see my comments below), and could track this large group. But, as hunters, they were only prepared for a short stay in the rain forest of mesoamerica. They did not prepare for a long tracking journey, without sufficient food, water, fuel, and adequate shelter, so, like their many hunting journeys before, they were unable to continue following the tracks after a few days. As hunters, they were only accustomed to short journey. They had to fend off the hit and run attacks of the rear guard -- probably night time attacks as well. This is no hunting trip.

Also, how much hunting journeys did they do? YOu asume they were great hunters, constantly stalking their prey. Well, sirrah, apparently once again you show your ignorance of the BOM text, and only go by the light of your own ignorance. The BOM tells us that the Nephites gave half of their subsistence to the Lamanites. They did not need to do any hunting because they were lazy and sat back and ate the food the Nephites gave them. They lost the ability to hunt and track through their indolance.

Indeed, these "great hunters" lost their way -- they GOT LOST!!! They turned back because they did not know where they were and these babies wanted to go home to their mommies. These were not skilled hunters but had grown fat and lazy from the Nephite tribute.

Dale, nice try but no cigar.

[ERayR]

Evidence is a funny thing, some people look a a hill and see a location for an epic battle while others look at the same hill and see nothing.

In the absence of a living eye witness whose to tell who is right and who is wrong. We never know what has gone into anothers opinion. There may be information that we do not have that has gone into that decision. Only the arrogant would ridicule another for their opinion and arrogance is not conducive to the learning process.

[CA Steve]

Thousands of animal footprints in the rainforest mud -- invisible.

Millions of flies following the herds and flocks -- invisible.

Pile upon pile of fresh droppings -- invisible.

Not a broken twig, nor a bent branch, nor a discarded corn-cob

to betray the passage of an entire Nephite nation.

The streams and waterholes pristine -- with no signs of domesticated

animal presence. No cooking fires -- no rear-guard of Nephite scouts --

no signs from the usual forest birds and animals of intruders having

recently moved through the forest.

And the idiot Lamanites -- unable to overtake slow-moving animals,

women and children. Recall that many of the Nephite men had died

in the recent wars -- it was women and children who were not only

outpacing the swift Lamanite runners, but confounding them as to

which direction might lead away from King Laman's minions.

The leaders of the Lamanite party needed only to have sent out

a hundred scouts in a hundred directions, after suddenly losing

the trail of the departing Nephites.

They were obviously not intelligent enough to accomplish even that.

Anybody care to cite a documented example of such a mass-escape?

UD

Exodus 14:21 Seems like nothing is impossible if you have the right kind of help.

[Uncle Dale]

...

Dale, nice try but no cigar.

So, we are agreed that the objective observer should take

this story to be true? A reasonable account of a real exodus?

And the Lamanite army sent after the departing Nephites was

not actually incompetent? They were simply unprepared to

overtake a lumbering mass of animals and Nephites?

If that is the conclusion that the objective, reasoning

reader should arrive at, then I can only wonder...

About the moment when the Lamanite army lost the spoor of

the departing Nephite masses:

"Sir, I can't figure out where they went from here!"

"Lieutenant, didn't you scout out a trail of thousands

of animals up to this very fork in the trail? You saw

all their droppings, all their hoof prints?"

"Yes, General, but we are forest hunters -- we can only go

two days, and after that we are unprepared to follow such

a massive animal trail."

"Well, Lieutenant, I guess we'd better send all you weaklings

home. You cannot live off the land -- cannot kill a rabbit or

two for dinner -- cannot hear the squalling of a Nephite brat

an hour up the trail."

"Sorry, Sir. No doubt King Laman will have us all skinned alive."

.....

I cannot believe the Limhi story. It reads like a total fiction.

UD

.

[CA Steve]

In the absence of a living eye witness whose to tell who is right and who is wrong. We never know what has gone into anothers opinion. There may be information that we do not have that has gone into that decision. Only the arrogant would ridicule another for their opinion and arrogance is not conducive to the learning process.

No ridicule is intended ERayR. I am just skeptical.

[Uncle Dale]

...Seems like nothing is impossible if you have the right kind of help.

If you want to call in the supernatural, then you might as well

cite Alma's group's escape from the army of King Noah. At least

in that account the aid of the supernatural is clearly specified,

In Limhi's case the Lamanite trackers simply lose the trail after

two days of being able to follow it.

If the supernatural is to be invoked, why were the Lamanites allowed

to discern the trail for those two days?

Doesn't sound very scientific to me.

UD

[cdowis]

So, we are agreed that the objective observer should take

this story to be true? A reasonable account of a real exodus?

This is a real story, but we don't have the details. We can accept the assumptions of a nonbeliever, or we can accept reasonable assumptions which are consistent with the text.

And the Lamanite army sent after the departing Nephites was

not actually incompetent? They were simply unprepared to

overtake a lumbering mass of animals and Nephites?

Did you read my post? The lumbering mass was clearly protected by a rear guard. It does not take a massive read guard to take up defensive positions, to do hit and run attacks, to do night time attacks.

You have decided to respond without bothering to read my post, so I will wait for you to read what I wrote, and you are able to give a cogent response. Stop wasting our time.

[J Green]

Limhi's group flees to Zarahemla, which means that shortly after they leave they are traversing the east-west wilderness that contains the headwaters of the Sidon. In other words, when the Lamanite armies pursue them for two days, they are likely in the mountains. I've never been to Huehuetenango, but is this mountain range really characterized by the rain forest Dale is suggesting in this dream sequence? As Brant points out, the Lamanites likely simply give up. Why? Probably because they are in the mountains having to decide whether to chase Limhi's group down to the Nephite low lands along a populated river corridor. At that point the empty city seems like a better bargain.

[urroner]

In the Exodus from Egypt, a huge amount of people left Egypt and wandered around the wilderness for 40 years, yet today, with all the archeology that has gone on in the past and the present, no evidence has been located, AFAIK, of all these people wandering around the the wilderness.

[Uncle Dale]

Evidence is a funny thing, some people look a a hill and see a location

for an epic battle while others look at the same hill and see nothing.

Yes, evidence can be misinterpreted.

For example, the idiot Lamanite army could not even locate the evidence

of their own passage through the forest:

Now the armies of the Lamanites which had followed after the people of king Limhi, had been lost in the wilderness for many days. And behold, they had found those priests of king Noah, in a place called Amulon...

The ARMIES of the Lamanites cannot even back-track to find their way home.

They cannot follow their own trail back to Limhi's deserted city.

From that deserted city, atop its tower, a warrior could see all

of the land round about. But the Lamanite army had been so stupid

as to not even post a sentry atop that tower, to discern whence

the Nephites and the pursuing Lamanites had traveled.

King Laman was helpless to locate his own ARMIES of forest trackers,

who could follow the Nephites for two days, but could not follow

that same Nephite trail backwards.

This is beginning to sound like "The Three Stooges Meet the Keystone Kops."

UD

.

[Uncle Dale]

...the Lamanites likely simply give up.

...

They could not overtake such a mass of animals and people?

Perhaps not. But they could follow the trail for two days --

and then COULD NOT follow it back home -- became "lost."

Shame! A century-old Arapaho in a wheelchair could do better than that.

UD

[J Green]

became "lost."

Remember that Limhi's early search party got lost themselves and couldn't even find Zarahemla. Seems light like the lights must have been turned off for everyone to get so lost.

Or perhaps we're dealing with clans that didn't leave their valley for generations suddenly confronted with multiple headwaters for several major rivers in an unfamiliar mountain range. (See Larry's work on the Limhi expedition.)

In Afghanistan I would accompany my small Signal Collection team in some of the hills and valleys near Pakistan. One time, the team interpreter told me he couldn't understand the dialect of Pashto the Taliban insurgents were using because they were from the next valley over. His tribe never went out of their valley and would get lost among the hills outside his known universe. One valley over and he couldn't understand the same language or find his way. Probably wouldn't make a good Arapaho!

[Gohan]

Couple of things that you should probably keep in mind Dale.

First off, as we read in verse 6, the people of Limhi didn't go the main way, they escaped through the back pass, probably not the way the Lamanites were expecting, which might have thrown them off and given the Limihites extra time.

Secondly, Gideon had delivered to them a tribute of wine - prepared in its strength - to the Lamanite guards, which they clearly enjoyed and got themselves drunk off their tails. So when they came to, they're hung over, probably a half day behind the Limhites, who've escaped the back way already.

Thirdly, as cdowis said, these aren't crack Lamanite troops. They're home guards, who are used to accepting tributes of wine and food and not having to do anything on their own. A lazy and indolent people indeed. Not the best trackers or soldiers likely.

Not that hard to believe IMO.

[Uncle Dale]

Couple of things that you should probably keep in mind Dale.

First off, as we read in verse 6, the people of Limhi didn't go the main way, they escaped through the back pass, probably not the way the Lamanites were expecting, which might have thrown them off and given the Limihites extra time.

Secondly, Gideon had delivered to them a tribute of wine - prepared in its strength - to the Lamanite guards, which they clearly enjoyed and got themselves drunk off their tails. So when they came to, they're hung over, probably a half day behind the Limhites, who've escaped the back way already.

Thirdly, as cdowis said, these aren't crack Lamanite troops. They're home guards, who are used to accepting tributes of wine and food and not having to do anything on their own. A lazy and indolent people indeed. Not the best trackers or soldiers likely.

Not that hard to believe IMO.

How many non-Mormons believe that the story is reasonable, in the

context of preColumbian America?

But, it appears that King Laman (or perhaps Laman, Jr.) dispatched

at least two "armies" to track the Nephites herds, flocks, kids, etc.

and all they managed to do was to get themselves lost.

Whole armies, that do not have a single able scout who can

backtrack, to get to Nephi, or to Shilom, or Shemlon, or wherever?

That is beyond incompetence -- it must have been planned treason.

That is the only possible answer.

Armies of Lamanites that can track the Nephites for two days,

but then cannot follow the same track backwards?

How in the heck did they ever hunt down those wild beasts

whose skins they wore about their loins? And, having hunted

them, how did they ever find their way home?

Sounds a lot like Solomon Spalding's impossible preColumbian

troop movements to me.

UD

[Kreno]

brigadoon syndrome?

[Uncle Dale]

brigadoon syndrome?

I'm certainly ready to entertain the possibility of supernatural

intervention -- if anybody can articulate that rationally.

Perhaps the Nephite exodus temporarily entered another dimension,

whereby all the donkey braying and infant crying was hushed, and

nothing could be seen but empty forest.

It makes for a good story. Orson Scott Card could no doubt sell it,

in a thrilling wrapper, at Deseret Books.

But even our invoking the supernatural leaves us with Lamanite

trackers who could not discern their own tracks back to Limihi's

deserted city. Whole armies of Lamanites end up bargaining with

the fugitive Alma, in order to learn the way back to Nephi.

When -- all they needed to do -- was to click their heels together,

and repeat: There's no place like home... There's no place like home...

Pixie dust, anyone?

UD

[urroner]

Couple of things that you should probably keep in mind Dale.

First off, as we read in verse 6, the people of Limhi didn't go the main way, they escaped through the back pass, probably not the way the Lamanites were expecting, which might have thrown them off and given the Limihites extra time.

Secondly, Gideon had delivered to them a tribute of wine - prepared in its strength - to the Lamanite guards, which they clearly enjoyed and got themselves drunk off their tails. So when they came to, they're hung over, probably a half day behind the Limhites, who've escaped the back way already.

Thirdly, as cdowis said, these aren't crack Lamanite troops. They're home guards, who are used to accepting tributes of wine and food and not having to do anything on their own. A lazy and indolent people indeed. Not the best trackers or soldiers likely.

Not that hard to believe IMO.

Oh, c'mon Gohan, haven't you watched any of the old movies where where all NA natives could track a flying bird after it flew away three days ago in the middle of a violent rainstorm. You disappoint me buddy.

I was raised to believe that the smallest Lamanite was a much better tracker than Aragorn when he came upon the battle scene where they thought the hobbits had been killed and he was able to track them as easy as I can boil water unsuccessfully.

[urroner]

How many non-Mormons believe that the story is reasonable, in the

context of preColumbian America?

But, it appears that King Laman (or perhaps Laman, Jr.) dispatched

at least two "armies" to track the Nephites herds, flocks, kids, etc.

and all they managed to do was to get themselves lost.

Whole armies, that do not have a single able scout who can

backtrack, to get to Nephi, or to Shilom, or Shemlon, or wherever?

That is beyond incompetence -- it must have been planned treason.

That is the only possible answer.

Armies of Lamanites that can track the Nephites for two days,

but then cannot follow the same track backwards?

How in the heck did they ever hunt down those wild beasts

whose skins they wore about their loins? And, having hunted

them, how did they ever find their way home?

Sounds a lot like Solomon Spalding's impossible preColumbian

troop movements to me.

UD

How big were these armies, 100s, 1000s, or even 10,000s? How about if he just sent a few out, 20 to 30, thinking the Nephites weren't that far away and they could be easily overcome. Is that possible?