Which Way did the Nephites Look

[Uncle Dale]

...and again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards Heaven, from whence the sound came; and behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard...

I suppose that the direction was towards Kolob; correct?

UD

[ELF1024]

I suppose that the direction was towards Kolob; correct?

UD

No...

There is nothing linking Kolob to "heaven".

[Tarski]

I suppose that the direction was towards Kolob; correct?

UD

Which luckily was not in a direction that the earth was not currently facing.

[Uncle Dale]

Which luckily was not in a direction that the earth was not currently facing.

If it was Eloheim who was speaking, then the direction that the

Bountiful Nephites were looking, was towards His abode -- Kolob?

Now, possibly Eloheim had traveled to the earth's atmosphere (as seems

to have been the case in Joseph Smith's first vision), but chose to

remain out of sight, so as not to detract from His Son Jehovah.

Since sound waves require a medium in which to move, it would seem

that Eloheim necessarily was situated somewhere in the atmosphere

above (or near) the Bountiful Temple. At least Jehovah was so situated,

since the text itself says that he moved from Heaven to Bountiful.

UD

[ELF1024]

If it was Eloheim who was speaking, then the direction that the

Bountiful Nephites were looking, was towards His abode -- Kolob?

Now, possibly Eloheim had traveled to the earth's atmosphere (as seems

to have been the case in Joseph Smith's first vision), but chose to

remain out of sight, so as not to detract from His Son Jehovah.

Since sound waves require a medium in which to move, it would seem

that Eloheim necessarily was situated somewhere in the atmosphere

above (or near) the Bountiful Temple. At least Jehovah was so situated,

since the text itself says that he moved from Heaven to Bountiful.

UD

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

Kolob is not heaven. It says it is the nearest to him, however "nearest" is still relative.

There is no reason to believe that Eloheim was in Heaven when he spoke. There is no reason to believe that he wasn't in Heaven either, other than the physics of "Sound waves". He just wasn't visible to the people. He could have been next to Christ, he could have been in the atmosphere at the original location Christ was decending from.

The scriptures do not say where he was, as it really doesn't matter. However, it is safe to say that no matter where he was, he wasn't on Kolob.

[Tarski]

If it was Eloheim who was speaking, then the direction that the

Bountiful Nephites were looking, was towards His abode -- Kolob?

Now, possibly Eloheim had traveled to the earth's atmosphere (as seems

to have been the case in Joseph Smith's first vision), but chose to

remain out of sight, so as not to detract from His Son Jehovah.

Since sound waves require a medium in which to move, it would seem

that Eloheim necessarily was situated somewhere in the atmosphere

above (or near) the Bountiful Temple. At least Jehovah was so situated,

since the text itself says that he moved from Heaven to Bountiful.

UD

Or he could just be remotely and precisely tickling the auditory centers of the people who said they heard him.

I suppose that God could cause me to hear his voice even if I were in the depths of outer-space. Of course, "space madness" might be the preferred explanation if this were to seem to happen.

Re "space madness" check out this documentary:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x91e3a_ren-and-stimpy-space-madness_fun

[mfbukowski]

It's really gonna be a bummer to be in one of those star-wars fighters or something and not hear that great "whoosh". How can you have a battle without booms and whooshes?

It's just going to take all the fun out of killing people!

I think whatever answer we give to the OP, it will be a tad "imprecise".

[Uncle Dale]

Or he could just be remotely and precisely tickling the auditory

centers of the people who said they heard him.

...

I'm not sure that the LDS Deity has that sort of remote power;

but, supposing that He does, then we are still left with a text

that in one sentence says that the Nephites looked towards Heaven,

from whence the voice came --- and in practically the next sentence,

they looked to see Jehovah descending from out of the same "Heaven."

If we trace the path of the Risen Christ upward, back through

the atmosphere, to where the Nephites first saw him -- then THAT

spot would logically be very near the place where Eloheim was speaking.

"Heaven" is a place in the stratosphere, directly above Meso-America,

(or at least above Bountiful -- wherever that location might be).

UD

.

[ELF1024]

I'm not sure that the LDS Deity has that sort of remote power;

but, supposing that He does, then we are still left with a text

that in one sentence says that the Nephites looked towards Heaven,

from whence the voice came --- and in practically the next sentence,

they looked to see Jehovah descending from out of the same "Heaven."

If we trace the path of the Risen Christ upward, back through

the atmosphere, to where the Nephites first saw him -- then THAT

spot would logically be very near the place where Eloheim was speaking.

"Heaven" is a place in the stratosphere, directly above Meso-America,

(or at least above Bountiful -- wherever that location might be).

UD

Up until this post I had quite a bit of respect for you.

3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name

[Uncle Dale]

...

In this case "heaven" is likely just "the sky" and not the litteral spirit world.

Well, that at least begins to make some sense -- since I suppose nobody

in Bountiful would have known which way to look, for a "spirit world."

The Book of Mormon generally uses "heavens" (with an s) to signify the sky.

But "heavens" has an extended meaning also. For Lehi, the "heavens" are

parted, so that he might have a vision. In Lehi's experience, the "Lord God

Almighty" sits upon a "throne" that "is high in the Heavens."

If the answer to my question is simply "upward," then I guess not

much more can be said in this thread. "Heaven" and "the heavens" are not

well defined in the Book of Mormon --- correct?

UD

[ELF1024]

If the answer to my question is simply "upward," then I guess not

much more can be said in this thread. "Heaven" and "the heavens" are not

well defined in the Book of Mormon --- correct?

UD

I would agree with you on that.

[volgadon]

Pilpul raises its ugly head yet again.

[BCSpace]

I suppose that the direction was towards Kolob; correct?

His starship was in low earth orbit so it could have been from just about any direction.

[mfbukowski]

His starship was in low earth orbit so it could have been from just about any direction.

See, that's what I like about this amazing church.

You could actually be right!

[Uncle Dale]

See, that's what I like about this amazing church.

You could actually be right!

Time to coax Erich von D

[Joseph Antley]

Kolob is a metaphor for Jesus Christ given to people who were astrologically savvy. It was a teaching tool.