How literally do you take the creation story?

[semlogo]

Could we settle on God being "kida-sorta-a wee bit" powerful?

Peace,

Ceeboo

God isn't all powerful. There's a big difference between all powerful and powerful. A powerful God takes advantages of existing natural processes. An all powerful God wiggles his nose like Samantha from Bewitched.

[cinepro]

That's ridiculous. That's not a test of faith in God, but rather a test of faith in Kurt Cameron. Not to mention bizarrely rewarding rather stupid credulity based on a lack of intellectual curiosity or indeed intellect, instead of true faith.

I've heard atheists asked what they will do if they one day stand before God and are asked to account for their disbelief. Their answers sounded much like your post.

Let's not forget that "faith" is the first principle of the Gospel. If this thread shows anything, it's that it's easy to have faith in things that aren't touched by conventional forms of investigation (i.e. are unfalsifiable: the existence of God, the reality of the resurrection, the First Vision).

But what if God requires more? What if He wants us to have faith even when conventional forms of investigation tell us not to? What if that is the true test?

In the end, we can't say that He didn't tell us. When asked "how we were supposed to know that evolution was false?", can we really argue that He didn't tell us through His scriptures and latter-day Prophets?

[Ceeboo]

I think the crearion story is just fine. It's the personal interpretations and assumptions that cause the problems. I do not believe in a young earth nor do I accept macro-evolution. There is a whole lot of misintrpreted information in both camps. I believe that God created the earth and its system. How long ago and how is not clear. I believe that God's children were placed in this creation through a fall and not through an assention. Exactly how long ago is again unclear.

Indeed ERayR,

If I may add, it is largely dependent on what "camp" you happen to be in as to how you SELECT your "scientific facts".

I happen to be agnostic concerning the age of the earth but to dismiss those folks (Some strike me as very educated regarding these topics)who belive in a young earth as ignorant, uninformed, unscientific, and downright silly strikes me as an enormous mistake (to say the least)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

When asked "how we were supposed to know that evolution was false?"

Why did you put all those fossilized skulls in the ground?

[Ceeboo]

God isn't all powerful. There's a big difference between all powerful and powerful. A powerful God takes advantages of existing natural processes. An all powerful God wiggles his nose like Samantha from Bewitched.

With great respect offered, I believe in an ALL powerful God on every level. So, I guess we can agree to disagree and clearly believe in two different God's.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[semlogo]

I've heard atheists asked what they will do if they one day stand before God and are asked to account for their disbelief. Their answers sounded much like your post.

Let's not forget that "faith" is the first principle of the Gospel. If this thread shows anything, it's that it's easy to have faith in things that aren't touched by conventional forms of investigation (i.e. are unfalsifiable: the existence of God, the reality of the resurrection, the First Vision).

But what if God requires more? What if He wants us to have faith even when conventional forms of investigation tell us not to? What if that is the true test?

In the end, we can't say that He didn't tell us. When asked "how we were supposed to know that evolution was false?", can we really argue that He didn't tell us through His scriptures and latter-day Prophets?

You know what really pushes people toward atheism? Believers creating the false dichotomy that in order to have faith in God, you must also accept all these silly tangential ideas that are demonstrably false. If you associate something false like YEC with God, and insist that true believers must accept both, don't be surprised when the intelligent people reject it and God along with it. Fundamentalism destroys faith.

edit: I didn't notice that it was you Cinepro. Keep trawling...

[semlogo]

Indeed ERayR,

If I may add, it is largely dependent on what "camp" you happen to be in as to how you SELECT your "scientific facts".

I happen to be agnostic concerning the age of the earth but to dismiss those folks (Some strike me as very educated regarding these topics)who belive in a young earth as ignorant, uninformed, unscientific, and downright silly strikes me as an enormous mistake (to say the least)

Peace,

Ceeboo

They are exactly that - ignorant, uninformed, unscientific, and downright silly.

[semlogo]

With great respect offered, I believe in an ALL powerful God on every level. So, I guess we can agree to disagree and clearly believe in two different God's.

Peace,

Ceeboo

As a Latter-Day Saint, I can't accept the concept of an all-powerful God. Of course if you're of a different faith you may have different ideas.

[Ceeboo]

You know what really pushes people toward atheism?

YES, it is when people place their faith/belief in scientific theories above their belief in God.

(Glad you asked!)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[semlogo]

YES, it is when people place their faith/belief in scientific theories above their belief in God.

(Glad you asked!)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Nope. It's when the low-watt fundamentalists steal the terms of the discussion from the intelligent believers.

[SilverKnight]

YES, it is when people place their faith/belief in scientific theories above their belief in God.

AND, when people have fundamentalist assumptions about God and his holy writs.

[Ceeboo]

They are exactly that - ignorant, uninformed, unscientific, and downright silly.

Okay! (I happen to disagree)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

As a Latter-Day Saint, I can't accept the concept of an all-powerful God.

Sadly (IMHO), I am starting to learn this about some of my LDS friends.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[SilverKnight]

Sadly (IMHO), I am starting to learn this about my LDS friends.

Sadly, you are taking one LDS's opinion and building a false stereotype.

I believe in an all-powerful God in the traditional sense of the word - as do most LDS

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Sadly (IMHO), I am starting to learn this about some of my LDS friends.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Don't let Logo speak for all LDS.

[Ceeboo]

Sadly, you are taking one LDS's opinion and building a false stereotype.

I believe in an all-powerful God in the traditional sense of the word - as do most LDS

Hey silver,

I stand corrected (edited above post. Thanks for pointing it out)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Ceeboo]

Don't let Logo speak for all LDS.

EASY folks (Ceeboo has already been scolded and agreed with old silver)

Peace,

Ceeboo

[semlogo]

Don't let Logo speak for all LDS.

I don't claim to. However, it IS LDS doctrine that God isn't all-powerful.

[Ceeboo]

I don't claim to. However, it IS LDS doctrine that God isn't all-powerful.

Well, then perhaps I should go back and edit my edit!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[mapman]

I don't claim to. However, it IS LDS doctrine that God isn't all-powerful.

How do you figure that?

[LeSellers]

I don't claim to. However, it IS LDS doctrine that God isn't all-powerful.

One of the chief issues here is the definition of "all powerful".

All powerful, to most non-LDS Christians, is logically impossible. (That leads to the classic, mocking, questions "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" or "Can He make a one-sided piece of paper?")

We Saints see God's omnipotence as having absolute control over matter and energy, using the laws of physics (although many of those laws are beyond our understanding). He can order matter and energy to do His will by the power of faith and of the Priesthood He holds.

Now, if one or more Saints applies the non-LDS definition and says "God is not all-powerful", he is, in that realm, correct. But he would be wholly incorrect if he meant that God cannot control energy and matter to implement His will.

I have not posted in this topic until now because the term has not been clearly defined.

Lehi

[SilverKnight]

Well, then perhaps I should go back and edit my edit!

From the LDS perspective, God's power is limited in that he can't perform logical impossibilities like make 1+1=3,

nor does God's foreknowledge result in predestination.

God's all-powerful-ness, when taken to extremes, results in heresies like Calvinism's predestination of the elect.

[Zakuska]

I don't claim to. However, it IS LDS doctrine that God isn't all-powerful.

It is?

Gospel Principles Chapter 1:

God is perfect. He is a God of righteousness, with attributes such as love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness

http://lds.org/libra...-4828-2,00.html

Why do I feel like the Author of hebrews?

Heb 5

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

[mfbukowski]

Don't let Logo speak for all LDS.

Yes- just for the record, I believe in an all powerful God. As always, the problem is just a semantic one.

Saying God is not all-powerful is like saying that he is not immortal, because the Savior died. Yet of course the Savior voluntarily gave up his life, so it is ridiculous to say that he is not immortal.

God chooses to obey natural laws in the same way the Savior chose to give up his life- but that does not mean that the Savior is mortal, nor does it mean that God is not omnipotent.

[mfbukowski]

EASY folks (Ceeboo has already been scolded and agreed with old silver)

Peace,

Ceeboo

Sorry -saw this too late.