Gethsamane vs. Calvary

[bu11fr0g]

Why do Mormons differ from many Christian sects in where the atonement for our sins took place?

and how did these differences arise?

[coolrok7]

The atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world.

At the death on the cross Jesus cried out, "it is finished". All that God required for our salvation was complete and the faith of the individual believer in the atonement (in Jesus) is how we connect with the promise of God, period. It is saved by grace through faith! The good works follow them that believe.

It is probably an undercurrent of a spiritual dichotomy beteween Mormonism and the traditional Christian tradition/emphasis. The source is not the same.

[Gohan]

The atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world.

I was taught the same, also that He suffered spiritually in the garden and physically on the cross, but I don't have a source to back that one up. I'll try and find one though.

[bluebell]

The atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world.

This is what LDS believe as well.

[coolrok7]

This is what LDS believe as well.

What is taught ultimately from this is different though.

[thesometimesaint]

coolrok7:

?

[bluebell]

What is taught ultimately from this is different though.

No, this is what is taught as well-that's why it's what LDS believe on the subject.

[coolrok7]

Begining with the need for a restoration is where this begins and develops with the Mormon temple ritual, the teaching of exaltation to godhood. Agreat distortion of the Biblical Gospel:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Not this:

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

[bluebell]

Begining with the need for a restoration is where this begins and develops with the Mormon temple ritual, the teaching of exaltation to godhood. Agreat distortion of the Biblical Gospel:

Not this:

Where in all of this is it that the LDS does not teach that "the atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world."

You said the church did not teach this, but i see no evidence of that in what you have provided.

[mbh26]

I wondered how the scriptures could say that Jesus suffered more than any other mortal and then the awful arithmetic of the attonement meant he suffered everything every mortal ever suffered or will suffer. Many people have died by crucifixion. It was a standard method of execution. The answer I was taught in the LDS Church that the most suffering was in the Garden of Gethsemane. I can grasp the idea that Jesus suffered as much or more than any other human being. But I can't really grasp the idea that he suffered every pain that any of the billions of people who have ever lived have suffered. If I had to suffer only the pain I've had in my own life at once, I'd die before I even got close.

[Zakuska]

Where in all of this is it that the LDS does not teach that "the atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world."

You said the church did not teach this, but i see no evidence of that in what you have provided.

I was wonderting the same thing?!

Funny thing unbeknownst to Coolkrok... nearly everything he quote mined...

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

[thesometimesaint]

coolrock7:

You conflating the Atonement with Theosis.

[frankenstein]

the atonement is the entire mortal life of Jesus, the garden and the cross are of equal in deed and necessity in the Atonement, as there is no atonement without either.

[David T]

Coolrok: I specifically responded to your "Mormon Gospel is not Christian gospel' claim and quote over in the other thread. I look forward to your response.

[bu11fr0g]

The atonement took place starting in the Garden and finalizing on the cross. All that happened in between was about Jesus' suffering in totality for the sins of the world.

Where is the doctrine that "events between Gethsamane and the cross are part of the atonement" arise from? I don't see it in the Bible -- and it strikes me as strange considering many of the events between the two were political.

[Zakuska]

Not to mention that after Calvary there were several events that took place that have far more reaching effects on an eternal scale.

- Preaching to the spirits in prison

- The ressurection

[bu11fr0g]

By the way, I remember being taught that the atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsamane and that Jesus was only able to withstand the suffering because He is God.

And that the atonement is one of the mysteries of the Gospel that is incomprehensible why it can occur.

[TAO]

And that the atonement is one of the mysteries of the Gospel that is incomprehensible why it can occur.

Actually, Nephi goes into good detail about why it can occur... I think how the punishment can be transferred is more a mystery than why it was transferred.

The reason though he gives, is so that the laws of justice can be satisfied, so we can rely on the law of mercy instead. But he says it in a much better way than I can - I'd suggest you read it, it's a very beautiful piece of scripture.

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Why do Mormons differ from many Christian sects in where the atonement for our sins took place?

and how did these differences arise?

poor word choice, "many." the location is not in dispute among Protestants/Catholics/Orthodox. the correct word choice would have been "all." again, this is not disputed in Christendom...

--SDG

[TAO]

poor word choice, "many." the location is not in dispute among Protestants/Catholics/Orthodox. the correct word choice would have been "all." again, this is not disputed in Christendom...

--SDG

Except it doesn't differ... as shown by coolrok's statement, which is what our church says also.

So wouldn't the correct word be "none"?

[Maidservant]

The atonement takes place in me . . . and you.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to beomce the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:12-13

Not to mention the exquisite exegis Paul provides in Hebrew about covenant and priesthood and about how Jesus came to be man with us in order to give us a way to be with and like him. The whole Hebrews must be read in entirety to completely understand (and pondered, pondered, pondered) but here is a lovely passage: Hebrew 9:1 through 10:22

"Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary . . . (3) and after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; . . . (7) into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest . . (11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands . . . but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your consience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead [my insertion: an inheritance]: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. . . . (24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: . . .(26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself . . . (10:9) He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . .. (14) for by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified . . . (16) This is the convenant that I will make with them after those days . . . I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them [my insertion: this is temple, btw]; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. . . (19)Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest [my insertion: we follow Jesus into the holy of holies] by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh . . . let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."

[DeepThinker]

The Atonement is far more than Gethsemane and the Cross. though those were key aspects. The Atonement is the process of reconciling man back to God. The Atonement started before the world was created and will not be complete until every person is "saved" from physical death (through the resurrection) and is freed from the bondage of Satan (through repentance). The only ones the Atonment will not be able to save are those who refuse to repent and choose to dwell with the Adversary.

The LDS concept of the Atonment is so far-reaching, expansive and entails a concept of love that the rest of the Christian world simply doesn't comprehend.

[coolrok7]

This is what LDS believe as well.

Bluebell, when I said the following, I wasn't saying Mormons don't believe what you had stated:

What is taught ultimately from this is different though.

You then responded this way:

No, this is what is taught as well-that's why it's what LDS believe on the subject.

I didn't see this above comment of yours until later, after as I was putting together my comment to sometimesaint and had posted it (there was a time lapse of several hours as I was at church and didn't have time to answer you specificaly as I hadn't seen it till I got home and got back online.

What the Mormon Church goes on to teach concerning the Gospel is what I started with in response to sometimesaint.

I then provided the quotes to show what I meant in contrast to the 1 Corinthian 15:1-4 statement of Paul defining what the Biblical Gospel is. This in contrast to the Mormon gospel using official Mormon statements I see being something entirely different from what Paul said it was.

[Mudcat]

Why do Mormons differ from many Christian sects in where the atonement for our sins took place?

and how did these differences arise?

This is an interesting subject bu11fr0g.

I think the best answer as to "why" LDS differ from other Christians on the matter, would be that LDS look within their own separate teachings on the matter.

I think most Christians agree that Christ's Passion began at Gethsemane and ended at Calvary/Golgotha. I think LDS would likely be agreeable to that statement.

The actual difference isn't so much in a stopping and starting place of the Atonement of Christ, rather it has more to do with where the greatest weight of his suffering occurred, plus some additional stuff IIRC.

From most of my discussions with LDS, Gethsemane seems to be given greater weight in regards to the spiritual suffering of Christ.

The additional stuff I aforementioned refers to the notion some LDS, perhaps all...I dunno really, seem to think that Christ also suffered for our diseases, physicals pains, and so forth. This is markedly different from my own perspective and is a notable difference.

I find the particular difference interesting because it seems to me that it could be asserted that Jesus did not undergo any physical suffering that was equitable to all human suffering. I never really understood the dynamic behind that and haven't felt it worth starting a thread over. But if such is actually the case and I am not misstating LDS beliefs on the matter it would seem there must be some sort of trade of in "spiritual agony" vs. "physical agony" to accommodate.

I tend to pass over a good bit of these differences, since for the most part, we all seem to at least reach agreement on a starting and stopping point.

I think if we looked at a more detailed outline of the actual differences regarding when things occurred and what specifically occurred in regards to Christ's suffering the issue might get a bit more dicey.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[thesometimesaint]

coolrock7:

You are still conflating the Atonement(which the Saints fully endorse), and Theosis while a Biblical concept is not directly relate to the Atonement.