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The Jaredite Barges


LeSellers

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There were two holes. One was unplugged much of the time for air ventilation.

Of course, whether a hole in the top could allow enough fresh air in to replace the stale air is another question. Circulation looks to be a serious problem.

There's no end to the questions raised by this little story.

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It's interesting to me that a group of people who supposedly traveled in barges which had no windows, glowing stones, and only two air holes were able to keep track of the time well enough that they knew that the journey took 344 days.

It is interesting that you cannot figure out such a simple answer.

A few questions -- how large was the hole? Certainly large enough to allow them to get into the barge, along with their equipment and animals. Certainly large enough to keep track of the time.

How long were they traveling on the water? No stops along the way for reprovisioning?

Did the barge actually tip over? It is simple enough to design a keel that prevents this.

Either someone hit you with a stupid stick, or, perhaps your mind has been so poisoned, so that you cannot see the answers. As the saying goes, there is none so blind as those who do not want to see.

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At the risk of being called stupid, like "Thinking"...

No stops along the way for reprovisioning?

I don't see any support for that in the text. Reality would require it, yes, but not much about this story really resembles reality.

Did the barge actually tip over?

Who knows? But what might have been the purpose of the matching hole in the bottom, then?

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At the risk of being called stupid, like "Thinking"...

I don't see any support for that in the text. Reality would require it, yes, but not much about this story really resembles reality.

Who knows? But what might have been the purpose of the matching hole in the bottom, then?

This is a familiar antimormon technique. When details are lacking, "I don't understand therefore it does not make sense."

What indeed is the purpose of the second hole. Do we have the details of the design? the inside, for example. Was there a connection between the lower hole and the upper hole, and connecting ductwork? Well, we don't know so I can create scenarios where nothing makes sense. No mention of reprovisioning, so they didn't do it.

I call this the "I don't understand, therefore it is false" technique. This is closely related to the "There are only two possibilities" technique.

I don't know, I can't figure it out, I can only think of two possibilities == therefore it is false. This is the foundation of the antimormon religion.

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How about this verse?

Ether 2:23

23 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye

that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For

behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in

pieces; neither shall ye take fire with you, for ye shall not go

by the light of fire.

What do you think the "windows" in this discussion would have been made of? Their purpose would be to let in light, but they would be "dashed in pieces" if installed.

Anyone know what windows looked like at the time of the alleged Tower?

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I call this the "I don't understand, therefore it is false" technique. This is closely related to the "There are only two possibilities" technique.

But how closely is it related to the "This is really stupid, so it must be false" technique, or the "This story requires an amazing amount of speculative fudging to sound even remotely plausible" technique?

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Apologetics is answering the antimormons with alternatives. We don't have all the details but we can show reasonable "third options". The antis maintain their assumptions, but let's look at other possibilities.

Let's look at the views of someone who knows what he's talking about. His paper can be found here.

Richard Rothery tells us his qualifications

I have read many papers touching on this subject and, so far, all prove disappointing as the writers, though well intentioned practicing scholars, are or were not qualified in marine sciences.

For your information and re-assurance, my experience covers 40 plus years of maritime experience, son of a master mariner, himself renowned for his ability and two brothers also master mariners, so it was in the blood, so to speak, and we all took great pride in following the tradition and in our individual accomplishments in many different types of vessel, merchant and naval, sail and powered.

My own experience ranges from tin canoe through racing yacht, passenger/cargo ships, bulk carriers, oil tankers, Ro-Ro

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It is interesting that you cannot figure out such a simple answer.

A few questions -- how large was the hole? Certainly large enough to allow them to get into the barge, along with their equipment and animals. Certainly large enough to keep track of the time.

How long were they traveling on the water? No stops along the way for reprovisioning?

Did the barge actually tip over? It is simple enough to design a keel that prevents this.

Either someone hit you with a stupid stick, or, perhaps your mind has been so poisoned, so that you cannot see the answers. As the saying goes, there is none so blind as those who do not want to see.

You're assuming that the air hole was the means for entry. That would mean that there was no way to get into the barge before the air holes were added. I think that the brother of Jared would have asked the Lord how they were to get into the barges if there was no entry. No. He only asked the Lord about air and light.

And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish. (Ether 2:19)
Perhaps a door which would be sealed after entry would make more sense. The air hole would need to be as small as possible so that when
they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind(Ether 6:6)
the barge didn't fill up quickly with water and they could plug the hole quickly before it did. Also, the fact that there was an air hole in the top and bottom of the barge is an indication that it was expected to tip over.

No, when that stupid stick came flying at my head, I dodged it with the grace of a Barry Sanders cut against a helpless defender.

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How about this verse?

What do you think the "windows" in this discussion would have been made of? Their purpose would be to let in light, but they would be "dashed in pieces" if installed.

Anyone know what windows looked like at the time of the alleged Tower?

I'd always figured the window was made similarly to the window Noah made...

Gen. 6: 1

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

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Did no one read my posts about the construction of the ship? I've already been through this and if an individual would like to go through it again, I'm all for it... but I will just refer it to the previous posts I've already written in depth about.

First and foremost: Where does it say the occupants of the barges had no means of exiting the craft while underway? They only mention the door 'being tight like unto a dish' when it was closed, not that it remained closed the entire journey. Furthermore I would like evidence to support the claim that 1) the door remained closed while under way, and 2) that ventilation holes were significantly small as to cause an issue with circulation.

As it stands I have shown my evidence and supporting claims for my stance on various things that were not specifically mentioned in the account of the Jaredites. If you have issue with what I have shown may I suggest you post specifically what you find troubling.

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CFR that the barges tipped over in storms.

What would be the necessity of the hole in the top and bottom except that when it's been tipped over, the top becomes the bottom and vice versa?

CFR that they kept an accurate accounting of the days.

Ether 6:11 And thus they were driven forth, three hundred and forty and four days upon the water.

They were able to see the moon, and, as I and others have suggested, if they made "port calls" for maintenance and resupply at least once every two months, they'd be able to calculate the days by the phases of the moon.

Somebody please make a movie about these port calls.

Women have a built-in calendar, and it would not be too difficult to track time that way.

My experience with that calendar is that it varies.

They took animals with them, and, presuming there were bovines and fowls, they'd have been able to track the passage of days by their need to be milked or by the laying of eggs.

More distractions.

Given they had light from the luminescent stones, they'd have had their own circadian rhythms, that would need to be calibrated only every several days, and thus could have been able to mark the passage of time.

You're really reaching here.

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I also find it interesting that these supposed barges were built after the manner of previous barges which the Jaredites had built.

Ether 2

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.

17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.

18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

19 And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish.

So their previous barges had no air hole and no light?

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What would be the necessity of the hole in the top and bottom except that when it's been tipped over, the top becomes the bottom and vice versa?

To drain the barges' bilges. On land (or in a semi-dry dock)!!

Did you fail to see this?

A vessel "tight like unto a dish"

still lets some water in through

any hole in the bottom because

the air pressure inside the boat

is less (slightly, and growing

as the depth increases) than

the pressure of the water outside.

So, those holes in the bottoms

of the barges were not opened

except while on land (it took nearly

a year to cross the ocean

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What I find most interesting is posters like Lehi are adding information to the account in Ether. Why? I can only surmise that perhaps he and the others know that the account as recorded is highly implausible.

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What I find most interesting is posters like Lehi are adding information to the account in Ether. Why? I can only surmise that perhaps he and the others know that the account as recorded is highly implausible.

Not "implausible", the account is "incomplete" because the details of the voyage (including the design and construction of the barges) are outside of the purpose of the author, editors, and translators.

I also find it interesting that critics, like you, add to the text, as well, because, it appears, as it stands it must be mocked in order to make it implausible.

Lehi

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Not "implausible", the account is "incomplete"...

I think "incompetent and amateurish" would be a more accurate description of the account.

It's not surprising that all kinds of additions, assumptions and creative interpretations are required to make it anywhere near plausible.

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I'd always figured the window was made similarly to the window Noah made...

Gen. 6: 1

16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

Here is an easier-to-read translation of that verse:

"Leave an 18-inch opening below the roof all the way around the boat. Put the door on the side, and build three decks inside the boat

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I think "incompetent and amateurish" would be a more accurate description of the account.

It's not surprising that all kinds of additions, assumptions and creative interpretations are required to make it anywhere near plausible.

Speaking of incompetent, please review with us your credentials so that we can compare them with Richard Rothery. Just curious how seriously we should take your opinion.

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Okay, so that could explain how a window might have been conceived at the time - as an opening. But how does it explain why they couldn't have windows for light because they would be broken to pieces?

Tell us your experience on the high seas. Have you ever been in a hurricane? Would that break a shuttered window into pieces?

Again, give us your credentials.

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that could explain how a window might have been conceived at the time - as an opening. But how does it explain why they couldn't have windows for light because they would be broken to pieces?

Once again, we are forced to look at the word, "window" in this case.

"Window" comes from an ancient Anglo-Saxon contraction: "wind eye" (as in "eye of a needle"). It was an opening through which air (the wind) and light could enter.

(I like this joke:

(Abe: I have just discovered an invention that allows you to see though a solid wall.

(Bill: Wow!! What do you call it?

(Abe: A window.)

The problem with windows was that they also let weather (rain, snow, crashing waves) in. So we have, as an integral part of windows, the shutter (shutter, get it?) to keep that weather outside, where it could do good instead of ill.

Eventually, glass was incorporated into windows, but, because of the expense, that was a long time in Mahonri's future (even though he knew glass*). His windows would have been simple openings covered by shutters. Shutters are, by necessity, the weakest part of the unglazed window. So, in the face of waves crashing over their barges, the Jaredites would have seen such windows be broken up, just as Jesus warned Mahonri.

* We think of aluminum as being a cheap metal. A hundred years ago, aluminum was at least as dear as gold. Technology has made it a common as glass (oops).

Noah, on the other hand, was not building a barge in a few months (as Mahonri did), it took him and his sons (and converts) a full century to build the ark (which is another word for "barge"). It was much larger, and doubtless stronger. A window in a larger craft, above much of the wave action Jared's watercraft braved, would not have had the restrictions these latter did. And, as it was designed for a shorter voyage, it did not need to be proportionally as rigid.

A small barge, a lighter, as it were, destined to be hauled up onto shore for reprovisioning and maintenance (e.g., draining the bilge), has to be proportionally stronger than one that will always in the water.

Windows would not be useful in a small craft, where they could be in the much larger, taller one, one with more freeboard. Windows, even covered by shutters, would leak when submerged (which is not part of the Noachin account).

Windows: a bad idea for Jared, not so bad for Noah.

Lehi

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the fact that there was an air hole in the top and bottom of the barge is an indication that it was expected to tip over.

CFR that the hole in the bottom was an "air hole".

The text surely does not say that. Who's adding here?

Lehi

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Here is an easier-to-read translation of that verse:

"Leave an 18-inch opening below the roof all the way around the boat. Put the door on the side, and build three decks inside the boat

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CFR that the hole in the bottom was an "air hole".

The text surely does not say that. Who's adding here?

Ether 2:19-20

"And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish. And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood."

Both holes were added after the brother of Jared asked the Lord about breathable air. I'm not adding anything.

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It takes more imagination than I have to come up with these explanations. There is no way I would have read this line:

"What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels? For behold, ye cannot have windows, for they will be dashed in pieces"

and honestly thought that it was talking about shutters being broken rather than the windows themselves, as the words say.

If the windows they pondered were no more than additional covered holes that could only be safely opened when there was no storm, they would be no different than the covered hole in the top (which already qualifies as a "window" under that definition). They could get light when they got air - on calm days. But the text indicates that they wanted a more constant source of light than that, which is probably why author Smith assumed they could have had glass windows.

I don't see any reason to assume that covers for holes you might call "windows" would be more prone to breakage than the covers for the matching top and bottom holes.

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