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The Jaredite Barges


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How is obsidian formed in nature?

YAAAAAYYYYZZZZ!!! Someone mentioned VOLCANOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:P;):crazy:

I should warn you, my Autistic passion subject is volcanoes. If you mention them, I will probably spit out random blurps of obscure information, just a warning. :fool:

I am extremely disappointed at the current news centers for not even using the correct volcano terminology with Merapi... I mean... nuee ardente... it's just gas where as pyroclastic flow is with solids... yet they mention neither. I could understand them mixing up the two, but mentioning none. *Bangs head against wall (ok, not really)*.

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Vex,

Okay.

Probably time for me to quit as well.

Hope you are not coming down with anything serious and that you feel better soon.

Thanks, it wasn't serious but I was quite sleep deprived and my body was telling me to take it easy.

BTW: I really have listened to what you have had to say, and plan to read up on (water) wave mechanics, thanks to your comments and your equation. We are headed out on a passage (Miami to BVI) this weekend, and we will probably be sailing to weather much of the way. So some additional insight to the waves we will be facing, especially downwind from some of the islands, could be of help.

Happy sails to you!

This thread has not convinced me that the Jaredite journey, as described in Ether, did happen or could have happened. In fact, considering that this thread may well represent the best that the apologists have to offer on the subject, I would say that the effect has been the opposite.

That's fine, and I can respect that.

I understand that the discussion has not changed your viewpoint either. Perhaps, however, you will even be better able to defend your position as a result of our little discussion.

I know I will.

Again, best wishes.

You too. Have fun on the water.
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Thanks, it wasn't serious but I was quite sleep deprived and my body was telling me to take it easy.

Happy sails to you!

That's fine, and I can respect that.

You too. Have fun on the water.

Vex,

Glad to see that you are back and okay.

Thanks for the kind wishes.

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YAAAAAYYYYZZZZ!!! Someone mentioned VOLCANOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:P;):crazy:

I should warn you, my Autistic passion subject is volcanoes. If you mention them, I will probably spit out random blurps of obscure information, just a warning. :fool:

I am extremely disappointed at the current news centers for not even using the correct volcano terminology with Merapi... I mean... nuee ardente... it's just gas where as pyroclastic flow is with solids... yet they mention neither. I could understand them mixing up the two, but mentioning none. *Bangs head against wall (ok, not really)*.

So care to elaborate on the process? Doesn't it involve melting?

Yours under the igneous oaks,

Nathair /|\

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How is obsidian formed in nature?

Yours under the geologic oaks,

Nathair /|\

My son found an obsidian arrowhead last year at the Parowan Gap. It was not the dark black obsidian, but rather clear and slightly smokey in color. Definitely see through natural glass. Pretty cool.

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So care to elaborate on the process? Doesn't it involve melting?

Yours under the igneous oaks,

Nathair /|\

Well technically there's melting somewhere in the process. Earth's crust is in a constant on-going cycle of taking material that's well underground, melting it, spitting it out of a volcano, and tada! You've got obsidian. There are other ways to create it too... but they are a bit more complex. The simple way is that it just gets spit out of the volcano's mouth.

Hehe, I have a foot by foot by foot piece of obsidian in my room, it weighs like 20 pounds or something =D. Actually, if you didn't know it comes both polished and unpolished naturally. Usually the bits flung in the air are polished, while the rest is not. The piece in my bedroom is a polished piece, and it has several snowflakes (small quartz impurities) in it.

Yes, there is also a type of obsidian that comes in a different color too. It's called mahogany obsidian, and you guessed it, it's somewhat of a roanish brown. I have a small piece of it... forget where I got it from, but yah.

What's intersting, is for my baptism, this man that didn't know me at all did his lesson with a piece of unpolished and polished obsidian (it can be polished mechanically too) for his talk. Then he gave them to me. He had no idea that I was obsessed with volcanoes at the time. I was pretty happy, as you can guess. The pieces were pretty nice too!

Don't make me get out my entire collection XD!!!!!!

I warned you, I'd go off topic :P!!!

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How is obsidian formed in nature?

So care to elaborate on the process? Doesn't it involve melting?

Surely you are not saying now that the BoJ was a volcano (the entity that "melted" the material to create obsidian).

The book says he took a rock and created sixteen stones out of it through melting, not that he found an already melted substance.

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I'm not sure where you're going with the transparent definition. If you mean to say that the words "white and clear, even as transparent glass" mean something different than they seem, please explain.

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One more weird thing about the barges and the sea journey. It regards the following verses:

Ether 6:6

6 And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the

depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon

them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused

by the fierceness of the wind.

Ether 6:7

7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep

there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being

tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the

ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many

waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth

again upon the top of the waters.

A water-tight wooden vessel, even if forced down under the water by a big wave, would quickly pop right back to the surface on its own. I wonder why this implies that "the Lord" had to bring them back to the top.

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One more weird thing about the barges and the sea journey. It regards the following verses:

A water-tight wooden vessel, even if forced down under the water by a big wave, would quickly pop right back to the surface on its own. I wonder why this implies that "the Lord" had to bring them back to the top.

I'm not sure the Jaredites fully understood the principles of hydrostatics (but even if they did), the terminology lends itself more to the point of the account than to the history/engineering aspect of the barges. That is that the Lord said He would bring them back up (but not to the means of how) and they came back; thereby attributing the outcome to God.

Additionally depending on depth of submergence postulates the time required to reach the surface. If you are buried underneath a large wave and are submerged 50ft, it will take longer than if you were submerged 25ft (I do not believe it's a linear relation either. I would have to write a numerical time marching solution of hydrostatics to figure it out for certain though). If the submergence were long enough the thought of being not brought up probably became a very real thought to them and as such the thought of being cut-off and forsaken; however when they began to rise with increasing speed they would associate that impulse to the Lord bringing them quickly back to the surface as a confirmation of their faith and a fulfillment of the Lords words.

(EDIT: I've also had another thought concerning the Barge construction that I would like to share, and I may share it later today. It deals with the terminology and the possible reasons for it.)

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I'm not sure the Jaredites fully understood the principles of hydrostatics (but even if they did), the terminology lends itself more to the point of the account than to the history/engineering aspect of the barges. That is that the Lord said He would bring them back up (but not to the means of how) and they came back; thereby attributing the outcome to God.

Reminds me of the WWII Submarine captian who got sank by a depthcharge and then prayed his crew would be able to make repairs to get the sub back up to the surface. Then after being rescued... thanked God for the outcome.

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In relation to my previous Edit: Has anyone noticed that the Jaredites did individual component testing?

Take Eth 2:17

And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish;

The premise for testing was made: Complete a form and test it by filling it with water. If it holds water without leaking it is tight enough for use.

And the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish;

Bottom/Hull form was tested first

and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish;

Sides of the boat was tested second

and the ends thereof were peaked

-Front and rear came to a point, though not mentioned it as tested-

and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish;

Top of the boat was tested

and the length thereof was the length of a tree;

Refers to the top of the boat not the entire length of the ship

and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish

Seems to indicate that it was mounted on the roof line and once proportioned into the top of the boat was tested again.

Individual component testing allows for easier construction and easier testing. I'm curious on individuals take on the description.

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Surely you are not saying now that the BoJ was a volcano (the entity that "melted" the material to create obsidian).

The book says he took a rock and created sixteen stones out of it through melting, not that he found an already melted substance.

--

I'm not sure where you're going with the transparent definition. If you mean to say that the words "white and clear, even as transparent glass" mean something different than they seem, please explain.

Hate to tell you Dude, but volcanoes have been everywhere, that they have XD. Not sure if they are on that part of the peninsula or not, I suppose I could go look... but either way, all obsidian was created by a volcano-like-vent of some sorts - even if it was created thousands of years before.

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Good comments by Lehi and Vex on this thread.

I don't believe we're talking about submarines without steering. There's simply very little data given in a scant two verses about the construction of the barges and not much more about the actual journey. And what little is there comes from a culture probably used to the flat-bottomed river barges on the marshes of Mesopotamia trying an open ocean crossing with some kind of deck. They don't mention sails, but neither does Nephi (as has been pointed out). Yet Nephi also uses the same language about being driven before the wind and only mentions the capability to steer his ship because of the rebellion of his brothers. If not for the rebellion, we wouldn't know about the steering capability at all. Therefore it's not much of a stretch to assume that the Jaredites also would have had some kind of steering capability. I also assume they would have stopped along they way, and that the language about the depths of the sea is similar to Nephi's language about being swallowed up in the depths of the sea. It's the kind of imagery these people would use experiencing storms at sea for the first time as opposed to crossing rivers in flat-bottomed barges. There is so little information given that we can't have all the details of the journey. To be so dogmatic about it seems absurd.

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To be so dogmatic about it seems absurd.

These are true words.

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It's interesting to me that a group of people who supposedly traveled in barges which had no windows, glowing stones, and only two air holes were able to keep track of the time well enough that they knew that the journey took 344 days.

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It's interesting to me that a group of people who supposedly traveled in barges which had no windows, glowing stones, and only two air holes were able to keep track of the time well enough that they knew that the journey took 344 days.

There were two holes. One was unplugged much of the time for air ventilation.

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How large does a hole need to be to see the sky?

So there is this little beam of light shining through the hole, which would have been closed during any storms (some of which surely lasted for days). Also, with everything the passengers had to endure (how to dispose of their waste, how to avoid hitting their heads when the barge tipped over in a storm, and so on), they somehow were able to keep an accurate accounting of the days?

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I was looking for the moniker of Lehi.

The user "Lehi" has not been seen 'roun' these heyah parts for over three years.

Lehi (the real one)

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with everything the passengers had to endure (how to dispose of their waste, how to avoid hitting their heads when the barge tipped over in a storm,

CFR that the barges tipped over in storms.

and so on), they somehow were able to keep an accurate accounting of the days?

CFR that they kept an accurate accounting of the days.

Mahonri was a prophet. God could easily have revealed to him the passage of time.

They were able to see the moon, and, as I and others have suggested, if they made "port calls" for maintenance and resupply at least once every two months, they'd be able to calculate the days by the phases of the moon.

Women have a built-in calendar, and it would not be too difficult to track time that way.

They took animals with them, and, presuming there were bovines and fowls, they'd have been able to track the passage of days by their need to be milked or by the laying of eggs.

Given they had light from the luminescent stones, they'd have had their own circadian rhythms, that would need to be calibrated only every several days, and thus could have been able to mark the passage of time.

Your objection is far from a war stopper.

Lehi

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