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The Jaredite Barges


LeSellers

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Do you really think it is within any laws of physics that a touch could transform something melted from a rock into a luminescent material? Some kind of "laying on of hands" priesthood power that transforms the elements? I suppose calling it an unknown rule covers anything.

Yep I do. It's no more a "do you really think..." than other physics topics.

You could ask the same question, referring to many other topic which people said "Do you really think..."

Such as black hole evaporation through Hawking Radiation

Such as the impossibility of obtaining perfect measurements

Such as liquid hydrogen crawling up the sides of beakers

And today

Such as the existence of naked singularities

such as the existence of primordial black holes

Just because it can't be seen now doesn't mean it didn't happen. We don't know everything about the universe.

I also have no idea what might be melted "out of a rock" (which seems to indicate a metal ore) that would end up transparent. Perhaps if it were sand, he could have made actual glass, which might be described as looking like glass.

Some materials only glow after applied to heat and/or a specific secondary compound. This isn't too hard to imagine.

I imagine that perhaps the melting got rid of certain elements, while retaining others, or something to that effect.

However, in my personal opinion, it isn't so clear as a matter of basic chemistry - I think it related to specific particles which I like to call 'spirit particles', but that's for another thread. And no, we don't know what these 'spirit particles' are, or how they interact with matter. We are just told spirit is matter, in D&C.

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Some materials only glow after applied to heat and/or a specific secondary compound. This isn't too hard to imagine.

Leaving the glowing bit aside for now, it does appear to be more a case of "imagining" here rather than any actual ideas regarding what might really be melted out of a rock to produce a transparent stone.

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Leaving the glowing bit aside for now, it does appear to be more a case of "imagining" here rather than any actual ideas regarding what might really be melted out of a rock to produce a transparent stone.

Of course; I don't know what was used, I just know that something was used XD. I have interesting ideas, but they are just ideas - mere possibilities.

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And you have not addressed any of the points I have raised but remained remarkably silent on the issue, yet you jump from one subject matter to the next. I propose then we break this up.

First: barge construction and modification with embarkation locations

Second: travel time. Wind, currents, storms, etc. without consulting a modern day oceanic current map (as any good oceanographer will tell you; currents do change, sometimes very quickly) for attempting to validate a mistaken assumption.

Third: life expectancy of the rafts accounting for water logging, repairs, etc (this would come into play from a good discussion of the first)

I suggest we focus on a singular frame of reference and not move on until either the argument is conceded or a resolution is reached.

So lets keep it on the first one for now.

Vex,

Ether is a fairly short book in the BoM. I am sure that we have both read it dozens of times. We both know what it says. So, rather than speculation on what might have been in the text, let's focus on what is in the text.

So far, I am not impressed with your ideas about the seaworthiness of the Jaredite craft as described in the BoM. If one looks at the historical record regarding maritime technology in Mesopotamia around 3,000 - 2,000 BCE, one does not find any mention of such craft as described in the Book of Ether - not even close. One thing that one does finds is that a mixture of sand and bitumen was used for sealing wooden hulls, and you should know how long would last in salt water (especially cold salt water) and rough seas.

I am also not impresses with your apparently poor understanding of the effect of wind on sea state. As a marine engineer, you must know that wave height and energy is a function of "wind over water" and is directly proportional to wind speed, wind direction relative to current direction, the distance over water the wind has traveled, and the time that it has done so. Whatt we are given for a description is that of furious winds that blow without cesaing for 344 days. After 344 days of continuous furious winds, a sea state would exist the likes of which have probably never been seen by mankind. Would you not agree?

Do the following passages from Ether indicate sea state 3 to you? Are "mountain waves" sea state 3? If not, then why would you make the statement you did regarding the sea state during the Jaredite journey and the resulting benign effect on the structural integrity of the vessels?

You and I both know that "mountain waves" cause structural damage to wooden vessels. I can't think of a wooden vessel design that could withstand "crashing mountain waves" for more than a few days, let alone 344 days, can you?

Ether 2: 24 (24-25)

24 For behold, ye shall be as a awhale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves shall dash upon you. Nevertheless, I will bring you up again out of the depths of the sea; for the bwinds have gone forth cout of my mouth, and also the drains and the floods have I sent forth.

Ether 6: 5-6, 8

5 And it came to pass that the Lord God caused that there should be a a<A title="Ether 2: 24 (24-25)" href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/ether/6/5a">furious wind blow upon the face of the waters, btowards the promised land; and thus they were tossed upon the waves of the sea before the wind.

6 And it came to pass that they were many times buried in the depths of the sea, because of the mountain waves which broke upon them, and also the great and terrible tempests which were caused by the fierceness of the wind.

Based on what is in the text (and not what might have been left out or what "inspired leaders" opine about the text), The Book of Ether would appear to be a tall tale written by someone who had no experience whatsoever with ocean travel.

At this point, I do not think there is reason for any more discussion, especially if your speculations on the other issues are as credible as your speculations on sea state, given the text in Ether.

With respect to the OP, there are but two choices; The Book of Ether is either a tall tale, or a description of a never ending series of miracles in violation of the laws of nature. (And IMHO, there is little difference.)

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With respect to the OP, there are but two choices; The Book of Ether is either a tall tale, or a description of a never ending series of miracles in violation of the laws of nature. (And IMHO, there is little difference.)

Or maybe the problem is with Fox, who apparently has unreasonable expectations of ancient texts. Maybe the issue is an incapacity of encountering ancient artifacts on their own terms. This applies to the authorship issue as well as the description of events.

Even the relatively late-recorded Popol Vuh contains fascinating hints of sea-voyaging antecedents to the Maya. From the Preamble:

This we shall write now under the Law of God and Christianity; we shall bring it to light because now the Popol Vuh, as it is called, cannot be seen any more, in which was clearly seen the coming from the other side of the sea and the narration of our obscurity, and our life was clearly seen.

Is the method of transport really all that interesting? Fact is, the creation myths of the speakers of the two great Mezoamerican language groups, Maya and Uto-Aztec, both depict sea-voyaging ancestors. Mahonri/Jared's people report the same thing.

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Or maybe the problem is with Fox, who apparently has unreasonable expectations of ancient texts. Maybe the issue is an incapacity of encountering ancient artifacts on their own terms. This applies to the authorship issue as well as the description of events.

Even the relatively late-recorded Popol Vuh contains fascinating hints of sea-voyaging antecedents to the Maya. From the Preamble:

Is the method of transport really all that interesting? Fact is, the creation myths of the speakers of the two great Mezoamerican language groups, Maya and Uto-Aztec, both depict sea-voyaging ancestors. Mahonri/Jared's people report the same thing.

Just to so I understand, you are offering evidence from other myths as support for the assertion that the Jaredite myth is fact?

Is this because the text of the Jaredite myth itself makes it very clear that it is just that, a myth?

Do the other myths you mention describe year long voyages in continuous storm conditions in wooden semi-submersibles with livestock aboard?

What I think is that the 19th century authors of the Book of Mormon should have been less concerned about entertaining folks with detailed accounts of fantastical and miraculous sea voyages. When one is are making stuff up to be passed off as fact, the less detail the better.

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Just to so I understand, you are offering evidence from other myths as support for the assertion that the Jaredite myth is fact?

Is this because the text of the Jaredite myth itself makes it very clear that it is just that, a myth?

Do the other myths you mention describe year long voyages in continuous storm conditions in wooden semi-submersibles with livestock aboard?

What I think is that the 19th century authors of the Book of Mormon should have been less concerned about entertaining folks with detailed accounts of fantastical and miraculous sea voyages. When one is are making stuff up to be passed off as fact, the less detail the better.

What I'm saying is that, the human mind organizes events into patterns, and those patterns have mythic power. An example: at the head of Salt Lake County is the State Capitol; at its foot is the Pen. Why is the North end the "head?" Why is the South end the "foot?" It's because that's how we organize things. Yet the reality created by that joint decision of thousands of human minds creates reality on the ground: are you going to spend more money on a house in the Upper Avenues of Salt Lake or in Draper?

Myth is an organizing function. Myths aren't lies. They aren't even necessarily "tall tales," as you asserted. They are verbal depictions of events in a manner conveying powerful TRVTH about the human condition. The reality of a series of ocean voyages from island to island in the Hopi creation myth and the reality of man's emergence from watery chaos into a cosmos of intelligible existence with G-d's aid are the same reality. Radical materialism pooh-poohs finding meaning in events, because it cannot compute meaning.

Getting hung up on the "how" of Mahonri/Jared's barges or Spider Woman's sealed hollow reeds quite misses the meaning of mythic events. If your radical materialism can't compute meaning, that's fine. These things are hard to translate into that there language.

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Jaredite Barges.1-69.4-53.jpg

Having read through this and the linked thread and reexamined the story in Ether, it does not look like the Jaredites could have done this without divine intervention. There is no way from the description they could have had oars or sails. However, this is something I don't think has been considered - Ether is a MUCH older record than the rest of the BOM, old when it was found by the Nephites, and old records are subject to more errors, exaggerations and changes over time than young records.

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old records are subject to more errors, exaggerations and changes over time than young records.

But in this case, the record was engraved in gold, by a prophet, translated directly by another prophet using the original record hundreds of years later.

Yes it was written in the most ancient of languages, but it wasn't open to exaggerations or changes over time. Moroni tells us he took his account from the plates written by Ether.

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But in this case, the record was engraved in gold, by a prophet, translated directly by another prophet using the original record hundreds of years later.

Yes it was written in the most ancient of languages, but it wasn't open to exaggerations or changes over time. Moroni tells us he took his account from the plates written by Ether.

Was that the process for Ether? I thought the record was compiled by Ether centuries after the events happened, and then further edited by Moroni (or was it Mormon)?

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Vex,

Ether is a fairly short book in the BoM. I am sure that we have both read it dozens of times. We both know what it says. So, rather than speculation on what might have been in the text, let's focus on what is in the text.

Which I have done. You seem to be missing my points.

So far, I am not impressed with your ideas about the seaworthiness of the Jaredite craft as described in the BoM. If one looks at the historical record regarding maritime technology in Mesopotamia around 3,000 - 2,000 BCE, one does not find any mention of such craft as described in the Book of Ether - not even close. One thing that one does finds is that a mixture of sand and bitumen was used for sealing wooden hulls, and you should know how long would last in salt water (especially cold salt water) and rough seas.

You're only disappointed with my opinion because it doesn't jive with yours--But hey, that's the way it goes when you have someone that actually knows what they're talking about discuss it with someone that gets their information second hand.

On to the historical record bit: Show me where it says in Ether that they made the ship after the manner of men. All it says they made it after God had showed them and that they have hitherto done. So, does it seem reasonable to apply the common forms of ship building to individuals that have not received their design from man? But lets go down this rabbit hole for your benefit. From wiki:

4th millennium BC

Evidence from Ancient Egypt shows that the early Egyptians knew how to assemble planks of wood into a ship hull as early as 3000 BC. The Archaeological Institute of America reports[1] that some of the oldest ships yet unearthed are known as the Abydos boats. These are a group of 14 discovered ships in Abydos that were constructed of wooden planks which were "sewn" together. Discovered by Egyptologist David O'Connor of New York University,[2] woven straps were found to have been used to lash the planks together,[1] and reeds or grass stuffed between the planks helped to seal the seams.[1] Because the ships are all buried together and near a mortuary belonging to Pharaoh Khasekhemwy,[2] originally they were all thought to have belonged to him, but one of the 14 ships dates to 3000 BC,[2] and the associated pottery jars buried with the vessels also suggest earlier dating.[2] The ship dating to 3000 BC was 75 feet long[2] and is now thought to perhaps have belonged to an earlier pharaoh.[2] According to professor O'Connor, the 5,000-year-old ship may have even belonged to Pharaoh Aha.[2]

3rd millennium BC

Early Egyptians also knew how to assemble planks of wood with treenails to fasten them together, using pitch for caulking the seams. The "Khufu ship", a 43.6-meter vessel sealed into a pit in the Giza pyramid complex at the foot of the Great Pyramid of Giza in the Fourth Dynasty around 2500 BC, is a full-size surviving example which may have fulfilled the symbolic function of a solar barque. Early Egyptians also knew how to fasten the planks of this ship together with mortise and tenon joints.[1]

The oldest known tidal dock in the world was built around 2500 BC during the Harappan civilisation at Lothal near the present day Mangrol harbour on the Gujarat coast in India. Other ports were probably at Balakot and Dwarka. However, it is probable that many small-scale ports, and not massive ports, were used for the Harappan maritime trade.[3] Ships from the harbour at these ancient port cities established trade with Mesopotamia.[4] Shipbuilding and boatmaking may have been prosperous industries in ancient India.[5] Native labourers may have manufactured the flotilla of boats used by Alexander the Great to navigate across the Hydaspes and even the Indus, under Nearchos.[5] The Indians also exported teak for shipbuilding to ancient Persia.[6] Other references to Indian timber used for shipbuilding is noted in the works of Ibn Jubayr.[6]

From my reading on pitch and the fact that it's a hydrophobic material you're not going to get catastrophic wearing over the course of a year. But lets say they didn't seal their barges correctly, and that they used the pitch on the outside of the hull with minimal fitting of the supporting wooden structure (which I honestly don't believe they did), you would get catastrophic failure probably with just an increase in hydrostatic pressure on the keel of the ship. Now that I got that point out of the way you first have to demonstrate that they used pitch to seal the boat with the text provided, and that they put the pitch on the outside of the hull and not at minimal distances. You and I both know that you have no such recourse so lets tone it back to reality. They probably did use pitch, they also probably used it at minimal spaces reducing direct contact to sea spray and wave action. This means that they probably coated the inside of the hull as well as between planks, which brings us to this: How do you know they didn't have the means of repair? You seem to be assuming a whole bunch with no ability to back up your claims.

I am also not impresses with your apparently poor understanding of the effect of wind on sea state. As a marine engineer, you must know that wave height and energy is a function of "wind over water" and is directly proportional to wind speed, wind direction relative to current direction, the distance over water the wind has traveled, and the time that it has done so.

That is blatantly false and anyone worth his salt will tell you so. Wind is not directly related to wave height except in shallow water and surface effect. Beyond that it's put into a wave function derived from statistical analysis with a standard measurement height of 17.5 m above sea level. You do not get specific sea states with increased wind. There are far more factors to consider when talking about wave height (I'm assuming you're talking about significant wave height as you make no mention of what measurement of height you're concerned with). Furthermore the wave energy has more to do with wave speed and current than wind, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole we can--you won't like what I have to tell you.

Whatt we are given for a description is that of furious winds that blow without cesaing for 344 days. After 344 days of continuous furious winds, a sea state would exist the likes of which have probably never been seen by mankind. Would you not agree?
No. We do not know the sea state only the wind. Having a continuous wind would be what we have on the coasts. Of all my time on the coast I have not seen a day when the wind did not blow. If it blows in the same direction day in and day out you're not going to get huge sea states as currents are the greater force, but if you don't believe me that's fine. Go ahead and take an Ocean Wave Mechanics course and find out for yourself. On the coast the wave direction allows for the wave to crest higher before it disintegrates because of the decrease in depth (if the wind is blowing in the opposite direction of the wave direction).

Do the following passages from Ether indicate sea state 3 to you? Are "mountain waves" sea state 3? If not, then why would you make the statement you did regarding the sea state during the Jaredite journey and the resulting benign effect on the structural integrity of the vessels?

Does it sound like it's a common occurrence on their journey or does it sound like it will occur and it's better to have a vessel prepared to deal with it? If you assume it was a constant state, tell me then; how did they launch the vessels?

You and I both know that "mountain waves" cause structural damage to wooden vessels. I can't think of a wooden vessel design that could withstand "crashing mountain waves" for more than a few days, let alone 344 days, can you?

Way to ignore the referenced post criteria of favorable conditions, but I'll go down this rabbit hole too. Tell me where it states that the mountain waves were continuous during the journey? It doesn't, so why ad-lib it in? Additionally you can definitely make a ship withstand any condition you want (see such modern ships as coast guard cutters, self righting vessels, etc) You can make a wooden ship as resilient as you want, it just takes the appropriate geometry and materials.

Based on what is in the text (and not what might have been left out or what "inspired leaders" opine about the text), The Book of Ether would appear to be a tall tale written by someone who had no experience whatsoever with ocean travel.

Says the person who dictates that wind is the only condition for a specific sea state.

At this point, I do not think there is reason for any more discussion, especially if your speculations on the other issues are as credible as your speculations on sea state, given the text in Ether.

Because your explanation of sea state is fair and accurate? Excuse my while I go and bring up the first paragraph of the wiki article concerning sea state for you:
In oceanography, a sea state is the general condition of the free surface on a large body of water
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Was that the process for Ether? I thought the record was compiled by Ether centuries after the events happened, and then further edited by Moroni (or was it Mormon)?

Ether wrote in the pure Adamic language, and had the records going all the way back to Adam, but Moroni didn't include those. GIven the pattern of the Lord in preserving his word, the records Ether translated were from plates handed down.

Moroni said his words were overpowering for man to read them, and he felt inadequate as a historian compared to Ether. I'm not sure why one would think the Jaredite record would be inferior because it was so old, especially given that such great prophets had that commission.

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Due to some of the comments on this thread I have to interject.

The first time I read Ether, because I read it as a chronology (or a Journal) I too came away from it thinking the Jaredites made several boat journeys and possibly launched from Eruope or Asia. But over the years and several more readings and studying what others had to say about it, I have come to see my fundamental misunderstanding of the text. The book of Ether only documents 1 voyage across a body of water.

The Jaredites leave the tower of Babel and go North to the Valley of Nimrod (the great hunter) to pick up some animals and provisions to take with them. The Valley of Nimrod would have to be near the Mountians of Arrarat, north of Mesapotemia. Why there? Noah and the flood ring any bells?

But then there is a detail in the text that people miss out on.

Ether 2: 5

5 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded them that they should go forth into the wilderness, yea, into that quarter where there never had man been. And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a cloud, and gave cdirections whither they should travel.

This quarter is in southern Saudi Arabis above Omen and Yemen. There is a place on the map in southern Arabia called the "empty quarter" and it's called this for a reason. Because it is a vast desert and there are no men there. This would put the Jaredites launching their boats from the exact same coast line that Nephi launched his.

Brother Potter explains it much better than I can.

http://www.nephiproj...for_the_jar.htm

This answers one of the critics snearing remarks about clear stones.

7. White Clear Stones

The brother of Jared molted out of a rock sixteen stones that were

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Huh, imagine that. Another individual who has expertise in the field agrees with me and my conclusion that it is possible.

Thanks for posting that Nofear (which reminds me... I used to love my brothers no fear shirt: "Nothing hurts more than regret. Except for a line drive between the legs.")

What we have is an individual (who's objectivity is somewhat in doubt because he admits to a religious conversion), again making assumptions as to what might have happened under the most favorable possible conditions imaginable for such a journey, not those are actually described in the Book of Ether. While he certainly appears to have experience as a mariner, he fails to take into account the stated conditions of the wind and sea as described repeatedly in Ether.

The author knows that without a sea drogue to keep it pointed into the wind and perpendicular to advancing wavefronts (no drogue is mentioned in Ether) a craft such as he envisions would not survive very long under the conditions described in the Book of Ether. Without a sea drogue and with its draft and freeboard, such a craft would be soon be turned parallel to the wavefronts by the wind and capsized by the "mountainous" waves.

He first explains why no sails are needed or were used (because of the time factor), and then talks about sails and a drogue. He also talks about stops for re-supply. One does not just "drift" into safe harbor and then "drift" out again to continue the voyage. Landing on uncharted islands or shorelines in the Pacific requires the ability to steer the boat. I note that the author states that prayers would be required to make such a journey possible

Sorry. Wholly unconvincing.

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Of course; I don't know what was used, I just know that something was used XD. I have interesting ideas, but they are just ideas - mere possibilities.

Ah, I thought you might share those ideas with us.

I'm not really steeped in geology, so I don't have any idea what possibilities there are. I know that minerals exist with some degree of transparency, but I have no idea if "stones" that are "white and clear" can be obtained by melting any of these minerals "out of a rock." I do know that the melting point for quartz crystals starts at around 3000

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What we have is an individual (who's objectivity is somewhat in doubt because he admits to a religious conversion)

So . . . only the testimony of a radical antireligionist may be credited, eh?

How very small that there world is.

How very unpleasantly it is peopled.

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On to the historical record bit: Show me where it says in Ether that they made the ship after the manner of men. All it says they made it after God had showed them and that they have hitherto done. So, does it seem reasonable to apply the common forms of ship building to individuals that have not received their design from man?

If you are claiming that supernatural intervention was required to build the craft, then you are weakening the assertion made in the OP that no laws of nature were broken in the Jaredite voyage.

How do you know they didn't have the means of repair? You seem to be assuming a whole bunch with no ability to back up your claims.

You must know that bitumen or pitch must be heated before it can be mixed and applied as a sealant. If you read Ether, you will see that no fires were allowed. No fire means no repairs of sealants at sea.

That is blatantly false and anyone worth his salt will tell you so. Wind is not directly related to wave height except in shallow water and surface effect. Beyond that it's put into a wave function derived from statistical analysis with a standard measurement height of 17.5 m above sea level. You do not get specific sea states with increased wind. There are far more factors to consider when talking about wave height (I'm assuming you're talking about significant wave height as you make no mention of what measurement of height you're concerned with). Furthermore the wave energy has more to do with wave speed and current than wind, but if you want to go down this rabbit hole we can--you won't like what I have to tell you.No. We do not know the sea state only the wind. Having a continuous wind would be what we have on the coasts. Of all my time on the coast I have not seen a day when the wind did not blow. If it blows in the same direction day in and day out you're not going to get huge sea states as currents are the greater force, but if you don't believe me that's fine. Go ahead and take an Ocean Wave Mechanics course and find out for yourself. On the coast the wave direction allows for the wave to crest higher before it disintegrates because of the decrease in depth (if the wind is blowing in the opposite direction of the wave direction).

I stand absolutely by my description of "wind over water" as a useful and practical first order means of predicting sea state. Seriously, this is ocean sailing 101 stuff. Living in South Florida I understand that those who do not consider these simple facts when venturing into the Gulf Stream in small craft often find themselves in conditions beyond their ability to handle. Some do not make it back to shore.

If you assume it was a constant state, tell me then; how did they launch the vessels?

That's easy. They didn't.

Your ability of perceived expertise in this field is gnawing at my nerves, knock it off.

So far, it would appear that my practical knowledge and experience with ocean sailing in small craft (under 60 feet or so) is at least equal to yours. If you have any such practical experience at all, I would interested to hear about it. (Seriously)

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This answers one of the critics snearing remarks about clear stones.

<stuff about quartz>

Exactly the right place at exactly the right time.

"Snearing," really? I can't see where there was even sneering going on, merely skeptical questioning.

But to the point, I see you mention quartz. How, exactly, does one go about getting quartz "stones" by melting "out of a rock"?

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So . . . only the testimony of a radical antireligionist may be credited, eh?

How very small that there world is.

How very unpleasantly it is peopled.

Okay. I admit that I could have stated it more diplomatically.

However, you have to admit that the description given by the good Capt'n would carry a lot more weight if he had not essentially born his testimony in his writings. This puts the author among the ranks of apologists rather than among the ranks of those with expertise who are also unbiased and objective.

As for this unpleasant person, I see myself as a skeptic when it comes to religion, not as an anti-religionist. There is a difference, I think.

I am willing to completely accept and support any good that is done for society by religious groups. What I am not willing to do is tacitly accept those claims of religious groups that are completely unfounded, or demonstrated to be mere myth and misrepresentations, as truth.

If that is unpleasant to you, then I apologize.

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If you are claiming that supernatural intervention was required to build the craft, then you are weakening the assertion made in the OP that no laws of nature were broken in the Jaredite voyage.

Show me where a law of nature was broken in communication with Deity. Do you break the laws of nature every time you talk to your pet, another human, or to your computer when it annoys you?

You must know that bitumen or pitch must be heated before it can be mixed and applied as a sealant. If you read Ether, you will see that no fires were allowed. No fire means no repairs of sealants at sea.

Who said repairs were done while underway? You presume too much--furthermore fires on wooden boats are used for cooking, heating, and and so on. Suggesting otherwise truly dictates your lack of credibility on the subject.

I stand absolutely by my description of "wind over water" as a useful and practical first order means of predicting sea state.

There's nothing first order about it at all. seriously. Here's the equation for wind velocity and wave height using PM Wave spectrum:

eq16-30.gif

Seriously, this is ocean sailing 101 stuff. Living in South Florida I understand that those who do not consider these simple facts when venturing into the Gulf Stream in small craft often find themselves in conditions beyond their ability to handle. Some do not make it back to shore.
If this is simple sailing 101 stuff why don't you understand that wind waves are unstable when they become large.

That's easy. They didn't.

Then you have no understanding of wave conditions or sea states and no need to discuss this further. As you proof text into your position and refrain from adhering to the original post criteria--Or in other words: favorable conditions appear to make the journey possible; but the most unfavorable conditions make it not from which I extrapolate out of a conditional sentence.

So far, it would appear that my practical knowledge and experience with ocean sailing in small craft (under 60 feet or so) is at least equal to yours. If you have any such practical experience at all, I would interested to hear about it. (Seriously)

Sailing of 40 ft monohulls and other small craft, passenger on multiple large ships (well over 100m), data generation and recording on >60ft military craft, I can go on if you'd like but I find the exercise futile as you'll discard it out of hand.

So far you have not shown me a lick of understanding in what I've been saying since the beginning of the thread. Your expertise is wanning even further.

Additionally you discredit the captain who has far more real world experience than yourself simply because he believes. Talk about poisoning the well if there was ever a case for it. Notice I didn't discredit DrW's posts because he didn't think it was possible, I just took issue with his premise. It's a shame you can't be objective in a discussion without interjecting your assumptions without a validation of them.

I'm still waiting on the weight of evidence you have yet to provide for your stance on a constant high level sea state and other barge issues (consider this a formal request for CFR for your numerous allegations).

Edit: A correction needs to be issued from a previous post. The measurement wind velocity height is not 17.5m which I thought I remembered correctly but it actually is 19.5m.

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Due to some of the comments on this thread I have to interject.

The first time I read Ether, because I read it as a chronology (or a Journal) I too came away from it thinking the Jaredites made several boat journeys and possibly launched from Eruope or Asia. But over the years and several more readings and studying what others had to say about it, I have come to see my fundamental misunderstanding of the text. The book of Ether only documents 1 voyage across a body of water.

The Jaredites leave the tower of Babel and go North to the Valley of Nimrod (the great hunter) to pick up some animals and provisions to take with them. The Valley of Nimrod would have to be near the Mountians of Arrarat, north of Mesapotemia. Why there? Noah and the flood ring any bells?

But then there is a detail in the text that people miss out on.

I dunno Zak. I find it hard to swallow that they would travel north, then travel south. Meanwhile the desert (I'm completely unfamiliar with the region so correct me if I'm wrong) would seem to me to be devoid of many rivers from which they had to cross. What are your thoughts on probable embarkation points?

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I dunno Zak. I find it hard to swallow that they would travel north, then travel south. Meanwhile the desert (I'm completely unfamiliar with the region so correct me if I'm wrong) would seem to me to be devoid of many rivers from which they had to cross. What are your thoughts on probable embarkation points?

Have you followed the Nephi Project at all?

I find it a little more than coincidental that the mountian ranges around the dohfar plain in Oman, and the Ancient Ship building port of Khor Rori

Are...

Marrah Qamar

Which is what the Jaradites named the Land where they built their ships. (Ether 2:13)

Third, The Jaredites called the land where they built their ships Moriancumer (Ether 2:13). Tribes in the Near East have the tradition of naming mountains, wadis and other geographical features after themselves. Lehi was no exception naming the valley they camped in after his son Lemuel, and the river that flowed by their tents after another son, Laman. The tribal name of the Jaredites was
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Have you followed the Nephi Project at all?

I have not and only have recently become aware of it.

I find it a little more than coincidental that the mountian ranges around the dohfar plain in Oman, and the Ancient Ship building port of Khor Rori

Are...

Marrah Qamar

Which is what the Jaradites named the Land where they built their ships. (Ether 2:13)

http://www.nephiproj...for_the_jar.htm

That's very interesting and I shall have to revise my point of embarkation. Thanks for sharing!
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