God was once a man who dwelt on an earth

[Balzer]

God was the first that progressed from ??? to the ultimate.

Never heard this before. So who made the man that became God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

[Ahab]

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but at some other forums I saw some LDS saying that God/the Father was eternal, and also some people who flatout rejected the Father living like we did on some other earth. How do you reconcile the Father always being the Father (as He is now) from eternity, yet he once dwellt on an earth?

He wasn't always our Father, even though he was always destined to be. At one point in his life he didn't have any children at all, and thus was not a father. And then he grew up some and got married. And then he and she went on to become exalted. And then they had their own children, including us.

Understand that we, even now, will always go on "existing" forever, even though our "bodies" are now mortal. Our spirit is eternal and will never cease to exist, whether or not we ever become exalted (or perfected) like our Father in heaven.

[Ahab]

Never heard this before. So who made the man that became God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

The term "God" also refers to a specific kind of being, rather than only a specific person, and all persons who are the same kind of being as our Father in heaven start out as spirit children of their parents, or what we refer to as "spirits", and then they come to a planet like ours to be tested, like we are here to be tested, with those passing the test going on to become exalted (or perfected) like their parents.

In other words, "man" (as in mankind) is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven, and "God" is what all of us are.

[ERayR]

Never heard this before. So who made the man that became God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

And this question from an avowed evolutionist?

Why must you always have a beginning. Hence the concept of eternal, forever or if you will infinity.

To answer your question God calls them intelligences and they had no beginning. One of them, God, found a way to improve on the existance that was. He then reached back to his fellow beings (mankind, intelligences) and showed then the way. He sends the message through his first born and only begotten son to "come follow me". Ain't it great.

[Ahab]

And this question from an avowed evolutionist?

Why must you always have a beginning.

It makes rational sense that we all came from someone (or some group of people) before us, with the one(s) before us being the one(s) we consider to have given us our own beginning.

The key is in understanding we were all created by a group of people, rather than only one specific person, with no point where the group was only one person.

[ERayR]

It makes rational sense that we all came from someone (or some group of people) before us, with the one(s) before us being the one(s) we consider to have given us our own beginning.

The key is in understanding we were all created by a group of people, rather than only one specific person, with no point where the group was only one person.

Your solution is a no solution. All it does is push it back and back and back... Where do you get back to a beginning? Meditate for awhile on the concept of infinity. God and his family (us) had no beginning.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Wat I'm wondering about is the phrase/belief/doctrine: "He dwellt on an earth, like us". Either a)this means what it says, b) it means something which we don't understand. Sorry, I'm in a rush, so this was quick. Did God dwell, like us, on an eartyj, or is this too much into speculation and such,a nd what does it entail?

Did you see my post? Lightbearer did a nice job of covering it too.

My post tells what scripture is used for justifcation for the belief.

[Ahab]

Your solution is a no solution. All it does is push it back and back and back... Where do you get back to a beginning? Meditate for awhile on the concept of infinity. God and his family (us) had no beginning.

If you'll meditate on what I said a little bit more, you may eventually see we agree.

I'll add a few more words just in case maybe this will help you to see that:

It makes rational sense that we all came [individually] from someone (or some group of people) before us, with the one(s) before us being the one(s) we consider to have given us our own beginning.

The key is in understanding we were all created [individually} by a group of people, rather than only one specific person, with no point where the group was only one person, and with no end to their number since they can continually create people, like us.

[ERayR]

If you'll meditate on what I said a little bit more, you may eventually see we agree.

I'll add a few more words just in case maybe this will help you to see that:

It makes rational sense that we all came [individually] from someone (or some group of people) before us, with the one(s) before us being the one(s) we consider to have given us our own beginning.

The key is in understanding we were all created [individually} by a group of people, rather than only one specific person, with no point where the group was only one person, and with no end to their number since they can continually create people, like us.

The us are co-eternal with God. The us have no begining. The only thing that can be considered a beginning is the stages we go through.

[Ahab]

The us are co-eternal with God. The us have no beginning. The only thing that can be considered a beginning is the stages we go through

There you go. I didn't think it would take you long once you thought some more about it.

[beforHim]

Did you see my post? Lightbearer did a nice job of covering it too.

My post tells what scripture is used for justifcation for the belief.

My bad. Like I said, I was in a hurry (and am now- I get two 15 minute breaks at lunch, hence I'm cutting this way too close).

I'll go back and read it. It's supersweet to ask real-deal LDS members these questions and actually get some answers.

[ERayR]

There you go. I didn't think it would take you long once you thought some more about it.

But that is not what your posts read.

[beforHim]

I am unaware of any scripture that says that God has always been (From eternity past)just as he has been now, meansing that none of his attributes have ever changed.

Another way to look at this is to look at how your earthly father operates. Your father will always be your father forever, for all of eternity, that will never change. However he has not always been a father. There came a point in time when he bacame your fahter.

In a similar light you can look at God the Father that same way.

What the LDS believe is that God lived on an earth just as Christ has lived on this earth.

THere is a scripture in the bible that backs up this believe quite nicely.

John 5: 19

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

From this verse we learn that Jesus can on do the things that he has seen the Father do. So one asks what did Jesus do?

I hope to shed some light on this subject. There has been much speculation on the matter and the only thing I hold as doctrine is, that As man is God once was, as God is we may become.

I see now. Thx!

[Ahab]

But that is not what your posts read.

What you said and what I said is in agreement. If you don't think so, read what I said, again.

I can already see that you agree with me.

If it would help to ask me some questions, go right ahead.

p.s. It might also help if you read everything else I said in this thread, too, beginning with post# 27.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I see now. Thx!

Mull it over, and if you have questions we will be happy to try and answer them.

I know what it is like when you don't have a lot of time.

[urroner]

I was an article the other day from an anti-Mormon site and one thing the author said was that Mormonism is a very illogical religion because it had a succession of gods, one after another, that stretched all the way back without end. He commented that that was completely illogical.

Well, how is that illogical. How is a series of gods without any beginning or any end any more illogical or logical that of a single god which has no beginning or not end and are either of those any more logical or illogical than there being no god?

Any of those beliefs only become illogical when certain conditions are accepted as undeniable facts and when I say facts, I mean conditions that one places upon the argument which is not be argued whether or not that condition can be proved scientifically or not.

These are conditions like "the Bible is the sole source of God's truth and it's infallible and complete" or "there is not god because god, if he/she/it existed, such and such would never happen."

An infinite regress in a series of propositions arises if the truth of proposition P1 requires the support of proposition P2, the truth of proposition P2 requires the support of proposition P3, ... , and the truth of proposition Pn-1 requires the support of proposition Pn and n approaches infinity. (from wikipedia)

In the belief of an endless chain of gods, each generation of gods could only exist if a previous generation existed or an infinite regress of gods, G1 > G2 > G3 > ... > Gn. This requires that time is endless, so there was never a beginning. That is the illogical part that human minds have a hard problem wrapping themselves around, no beginning of time.

In the belief of a single god (God) with no beginning, the part of no beginning of time is done away with by simply saying that God created everything but Himself, including time, but this also runs into a few logical problems like, God has no beginning, so how is that any more illogical than time has no beginning and since any type of action requires time for it to happen in, how could God do anything, including thinking about doing something, completely outside of any temporal dimension. In order for God to create the very first temporal dimension, He had to exist within a temporal dimension before the very first temporal dimension and that is seriously illogical.

[Ahab]

I was an article the other day from an anti-Mormon site and one thing the author said was that Mormonism is a very illogical religion because it had a succession of gods, one after another, that stretched all the way back without end. He commented that that was completely illogical.

Well, how is that illogical.

It's not, even though some people think it is when they haven't thought enough about it.

How is a series of gods without any beginning or any end any more illogical or logical that of a single god which has no beginning or not end...

Both ideas are pretty much basically the same idea, with the only difference being the number of persons considered to be the one and only true god/God.

...and are either of those any more logical or illogical than there being no god?

The idea that there is no supreme being in all of existence among all of the beings in existence is totally illogical, with no merit at all, and any so called "scientist" should hide his/her face in shame at the notion that anyone would seriously consider that notion.

Any of those beliefs only become illogical when certain conditions are accepted as undeniable facts and when I say facts, I mean conditions that one places upon the argument which is not to be argued whether or not that condition can be proved scientifically or not.

Those true ideas don't ever become illogical even if some people think they do, or are.

[CV75]

Wat I'm wondering about is the phrase/belief/doctrine: "He dwellt on an earth, like us". Either a)this means what it says, b) it means something which we don't understand.

It means both. In addition, it doesn't mean He isn't God from all eternity to all eternity. It could mean that once He stepped into temporality/mortality, He stepped out of eternity/immortality (like we did), and when He stepped out of temporality, He entered back into eternity, just like we will. It is said that we are co-eternal with God, so we are with Him from eternity to all eternity on the same basis, terms, conditions and perspectives. And we also are not if/when we do not abide in the covenant. Once you are in eternity, having been proven true and faithful, your temporal existence takes on a whole new meaning, and you are fully engaged in experiencing eternity, not temporality, with God.

[StuddleyG]

I'm probably beating a dead horse, but at some other forums I saw some LDS saying that God/the Father was eternal, and also some people who flatout rejected the Father living like we did on some other earth. How do you reconcile the Father always being the Father (as He is now) from eternity, yet he once dwellt on an earth?

I'm sure I just don't understand the saying, or the context, or something like that. I'm sure you can get way too speculative. I don't want to get speculative but stay on doctrine. This will definitely be brought up in tonight's panel discussion I am attending, so I hope to have some understanding of it. Cool.

Thx a ton!

Joseph Smith taught that intelligence or light and truth has always existed. And God is intellignece. Therefore God has always existed.

[Ahab]

Joseph Smith taught that intelligence or light and truth has always existed. And God is intellignece. Therefore God has always existed.

The glory of God is intelligence.

I understand that to mean the most intelligent being in all of existence is the kind of being we are, intrinsically, even though not all of us are as intelligent as our Father in heaven.

[ERayR]

The glory of God is intelligence.

I understand that to mean the most intelligent being in all of existence is the kind of being we are, intrinsically, even though not all of us are as intelligent as our Father in heaven.

I don't know but this might help in understanding the term intelligences as used in LDS thought.

Abraham 3 paying close attention to verses 21 and 22 then follow the cross references.

[Ahab]

I don't know but this might help in understanding the term intelligences as used in LDS thought.

Abraham 3 paying close attention to verses 21 and 22 then follow the cross references.

Asking our Father about it can help a lot, too.

Some people just have a mistaken notion about where, or who, we came from.

[CV75]

I don't know but this might help in understanding the term intelligences as used in LDS thought.

Abraham 3 paying close attention to verses 21 and 22 then follow the cross references.

I think this helps show that the terms "intelligence" and "intelligences" are different things. Intelligence is light and truth, or the light of truth, which also helps define glory (D&C 93: 36), which is the eternal life of man (Moses 1:39). It might also be that the "work" in the term "my work and my glory" refers to the business of granting us immortality, since this is something God does for all, and that eternal life comes by each individual's agency, which accumulates truth, light and intelligence until the whole immortal body is filled with light (D&C 88: 67, 76:70, 92). Intelligences are the spirit children of God who perform this choosing to hopefully advance in intelligence during the pre-mortal council, mortality and the spirit world prior to the final judgment. Where man is spirit (93:33), the intelligences in Abraham 3 are spirits. There is another discussion on the topic of "light" that adds to these ideas.

[SeekerB]

Never heard this before. So who made the man that became God?

Respectfully,

Balzer

We all have a spirit in us. Spirit bodies may have existed first, before there ever was a physical man. This could have been billions of years ago and even in another universe. All is speculation, of course. Since spirits look upon the absence of their bodies as a bondage, and spirits are capable of great intelligence and can create suns and worlds, maybe a spirit being made a man in some distant past age then joined with him. Maybe God, as a spirit, created his own body.

[Lachoneus]

Joseph Smith taught that intelligence or light and truth has always existed. And God is intellignece. Therefore God has always existed.

God, man, intelligence and element are all eternal.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. . . . 33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

(D&C 93:29, 33)