Which church is "the church of the Lamb of God"

[leeuniverse]

Well in reading all the convoluted answers posted it appears that most LDS believe that the LDS church is the church of the lamb of God, and other christian churches are also part of the church of the Lamb of God...so how can you say that the LDS church is the "Only One True Church". Don't you see the contradiction you are posing?

No, the contradiction is in your own mind because of warped views and interpretations.

Read the verse again....

1 Ne. 14:

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

The verse doesn't APPLY TO CHURCH'S..... it apply's to PEOPLE.

This is the battle between good and evil, right and wrong, yin and yang etc. in all things.

All men have the Light of Christ within them, AND they also have evil within them, as such they have the "choice" in all things to belong to the Lamb of God, or to belong to the devil.

While it's not always easy for good people to differentiate between the two (think politics), it is a simple reality.

For example, politically it is my belief that the person who follows the Church of the Lamb is Bush, because he is honest, charactered, tries to help make mankind better etc., while Kerry is a con-man who has constructed his entire life so as to eventually be the most powerful man on the earth. The beginning of which was his four months Vietnam service which he got wonded three times each being "scratch's", and then he making sure he sent in the paperwork for those wounds, getting his Purple hearts, so he could get out as soon as possible before being killed or seriously wounded. And he's Married twice to Rich heiresses, not to mention the million other con-man instances where he tells people a different thing on the same subject depending upon where he is speaking, such as one state parading his SUV's and in another saying he hates SUV's and they are his wifes and he has only a small car, as well as one place saying he would get America out of Iraq, and another place saying he would do it right and win, and fight a more "sensitive" war.

Just a few examples.....

Anyway, there is definately a real war between the Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil.

Religious affiliation, truth claims etc. have nothing to do with it.

There are righteous men in Tibet, and there are righteous men in America.

Truth claims are an aside to the earthly battle that now continues from the heavenly one in the pre-exhistance between satan and God and each of their followers.

[Nighthawke]

This is a logical fallacy on Nephi's part. A False dichotomy, offering only two possible conclusions. This is especially problematic when you consider there are 3 kingdoms and outer darkness. The people who are part of the church of the lamb of God go to the CK, the church of the devil people are cast out, so who populates the middle kingdoms if Nephi's opinions are true? If I was a Book of Mormon scholar, I would say that that passage was merely Nephi's opinion. After all, prophets are also just men with opinions. As the visiting GA above said, "who cares?" In other words, it was merely Nephi's opinion, so it doesn't really matter does it?

At death, Latter-day Saints believe that our spirits enter the postmortal spirit world to await the resurrection, this spirit world is split in two: the righteous enter a state of paradise and the wicked enter a state of misery. In 1 Nephi Chapter 15, Laman and Lemuel ask Nephi to interpret the vision of the Tree of Life (see 1 Nephi 15:27-33), notice that in verse 32 the final judgement hasn't happened yet... "...for the day should come that they must be judged of their works...".

[rick b]

Under Church of the Devil, in MD pg 137 this is the 1999 19th printing so it must be ok with the lds higher up's but it also follows the 1958 edtion minus the catholic church part.

The titles church of the devil and great abominable church are used to IDENTIFY ALL CHURCH'S ororganizations of whatever name or nature whether political, philosophical, educational, economic, social, fraternal, civic, or RELIGIOUS which are designed to take men on a course that leads away from god and his laws and thus from salvation in the kingdom of god.

Then closer to the bottom it says: Any church or organization of any kind whatever which satisfies the innate religious longings of man and keeps him fromcoming to the saving truths of christ and his gospel is therfore not of god.

Now this proves that the lds church is and claims to be the ONLY TRUE CHURCH. if you were not the only true church you would not send out MM'S all over the world to share the "truth" with people. When a MM'S talks to someone it boils down to this, if they agree with the mm then they could be called a mormon otherwise if they disagree then they dont have the truth and need to be taught it.

then this means they are not part of the true church, Also as you know jw's and BAC do not believe in the same Jesus as the lds. and no other religion claims to believe in Jesus. All other religions either deny Jesus or claim he was only a good person or teacher, they do not claim he was and is God. Also according to what MD teaches, stated above, All other religions dont follow lds laws and the preisthood, therefore by default we/they lead people from the truth of God and theirfore are part of the church of the devil. Rick b.

[Tetraforce]

MD is rebuked, probably for that reason.

[leeuniverse]

Rick, even the LDS Church can be of the Church of the Devil if it teaches something that is false such as some of the reasons given by some for the Priesthood ban.

So, it's NOT simply "churches", it's beliefs and fruits, which may or may not be in a particular church!

Some Churches have more truth and more evil than others, but yes, only one has the Fullness as so far as has been revealed by God.

McKonkie wasn't entirely "clear" on that, so on that issue he's not the "most complete" source for the correct and most accurate answer.

His book is great in a lot of ways, but it's hardly perfect.

We are telling you LDS Doctrine on the matter, not one man's past opinion.

Why do you treat that book as the Bible?

[tubaloth]

Are you aware that in Elder McConkies book he adamantly stated that the Catholic Church was the great and abominable church of the devil...until the Prophet prevailed upon him to take it out of subsequent editions because it was making the church look bad.

yes I knew that, but then, we would have assume that what is writen now is "approved" to some extent by the prophet. What I mean is, IF the prophet still had problems with what Elder McConkie had written don't you think he would change it again? He hasn't! So I would assume by this, that it is pretty close to correct. (In Elder McConkie's eyes and in the churches).

Read the quote I offered before, It talks about both how the LDS Church is the "only true church" and how their are good people everybody. It even had sub-headings to help people. Just read it again.

[leeuniverse]

The Prophet isn't a "proof-reader"..... It was a "glaring error" in the first edition, which is why it was addressed.

The Church allows people to give their own views about lot's of things.

Plus, McKonkie isn't wrong in what he said per-se, with what you quoted he simply didn't given every aspect of the principle.

Author's often don't make fully perfect (including all things) responces to some subjects on which they write.

I read books all the time and I wish the author had said more about a thing to make it more clear and accurate, but such has nothing to do with the author being in "error" or the Church being the (perfect police).

[rick b]

The problem I have is this, You guys slam bruce yet his books get published, if he is so wrong and Ezra Taft Besosn taught the prophet cannot lead the church astry. And If god wants the truth to be known, Then why does god not speak through the prophet and set the record straight, instead the prophet is either not aware of this so called false teaching passing threw the church or god is really stupid.

If your god is real why does he not speak through the prophet as you believe he does and have god say to the prophet there is all this stuff that is wrong yet people believe to be true and therefore is leading them astray and they need to be set straight. It just is not happining, And even then if people approach the prophet he either cannot do anything or does not do anything to set the record straight. Again bruce might be wrong according to you but he had people like elders review this stuff and it passed as good with them or they also were decived, and again D and C 131:6 states you cannot be saved in ignorence. it would apper there is a lot of ignorent people in the lds church because so many people disagree on its doctrine. again sad, sad, sad.

[leeuniverse]

All the LDS in this thread HAVE TOLD YOU what our doctrine is on this principle, and it doesn't contradict McKonkie but ADDS to him.

Clearly then, the members of the Church are understanding our doctrine, but you aren't.

So, clearly the Lord is getting the message to us through His Servants somehow, even if YOU don't think you see it, when your actually ignoring us, not realizing that the answer to your negative charge is right before you.

Your whinning blah blah blah means nothing to us, we know the principle and have recieved it from the Lords Annointed, Scripture, and the Holy Spirit. You on the other hand, do not know and have not yet recieved it, and even refuse to by ignoring us, pure and simple.

[rick b]

OYEAH, I forgot, when bruce says something you disagrre with you claim he is crazy and needed to be set straight, yet maintain he is correct and I'm wrong. Love the logic there. Even when your wrong your right. Rick b.

[leeuniverse]

You asked about his "correction" and I answered you. But I guess you being YOUR OWN Prophet, you never make any errors do you, and neither do anyone else in Christiandom?

(Can't remember if your Christian or not, if not ignore my last sentense.)

McKonkie in the correction gave his opinion as he understood it.

We don't disagree with his correction, but I think as you should be able to see from our responces about the principle to you that we believe he could have added more understanding to the idea.

McKonkies "Mormon Doctrine" is not our Bible. We don't consider any book nor it's writers Prophet/Apostle or not to be "infallible", even Scripture itself.

In fact, we expect fallibility, but's it's rare so it's easy to spot.

I don't know of one book I own by anyone in or out of the Church that doesn't have an error or two, or has a subject that couldn't be "improved" more.

Why are you expecting infallibility?

[Guest Just Curious]

So is the church of the devil all of those churchs that fight against christian churchs, or just all of those churches that fight against the LDS church?

[heavymental]

So is the church of the devil all of those churchs that fight against christian churchs, or just all of those churches that fight against the LDS church?

What do you think? You are LDS and should know this answer.

[Guest Edward]

So is the church of the devil all of those churchs that fight against christian churchs, or just all of those churches that fight against the LDS church?

lee,

This has already been answered by many people, but since Just Curious is looking for one specific answer and could care how many times people answer him, but would rather ignore them until they give him the answer he wants. I will do that for you: Give him the answer he wants so maybe he might just drop it and stop wasting your guys time by making you repeat yourself..

Note: I don't believe what I'm about to write, but since this is the only answer Just Curious will accept I will post it.

The church of the Lamb of God is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, all other Churches are the church of the devil, and those that fight against the LDS Church is the "church of the devil," so no the churches that fight against christian churchs are not the church of the devil, since they are the church of the devil.

There Just Curious got the answer he wants, now maybe he will stop asking the same question over and over.

[Guest Just Curious]

Wow Ed...you sure did attack me good....did it feel good? You see I really do want the official chuch doctrine answer to this question. Unlike your thoughts about me I am not trying to pick a fight I am trying to find the church position on this important question that I have...sorry to disappoint you...

[heavymental]

I really do want the official chuch doctrine answer to this question.

Wouldn't it be easier to go directly to offical church sources rather than ask for this information on FAIR of all places.

[Guest Just Curious]

Wouldn't it be easier to go directly to offical church sources rather than ask for this information on FAIR of all places.

Where can I find the official church answer? That is what I have been asking...do I have to write a letter to church HQ or is it available somewhere online or in print?

[Freedom]

Just Curious has a strange obsession that every word, concept, idea, verse etc. needs to have an official explanation. Why does he stop at the Church of the lamb of God? Why doesn

[Guest Just Curious]

It is sad that some people have these strange obsessions but it keeps us entertained.

Yes it is a strange obsession indeed to want to know which church is the church of the lamb of God and which church is the church of the devil to make sure that I am in the right church.....what an obsession !!!!

Come to think of it, in the early 1800's there was this boy on a farm in New York state that had a similar obsession....wanna hear the rest of the story?

[heavymental]

Where can I find the official church answer? That is what I have been asking...do I have to write a letter to church HQ or is it available somewhere online or in print?

I doubt any of that information will be online, but I'd start at the top.

[rick b]

I find it strange that people want honest answers and the lds get upset, like with just curious for example. what is wrong with wanting to know the truth, also D and C 131:6 says a man cannot be saved in ignorence. Also for all the people who slam bruce and claim he was wrong, here is the preface to the 1958 edtion MD.

PREFACE

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first bookof it's kind ever published.

It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.

It is the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel--the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.

True, there are many Bible commentaries, dictionaries, and encyclopedias; but they all abound in apostate, sectarian notions. Also, there are many sound gospel texts on special subjects.

But never before has a comprehensive attempt been made to define and outline, in a brief manner, all of the basic principles of salvation--and to do it from the perspective of all revelation, both ancient and modern.

This work on Mormon Doctrine is designed to help persons seeking salvation to gain that knowladge of God and his laws without which they cannot hope for an inheritance in the celestial city.

Since it is impossible foe a man to be saved in ignorence of God and his laws and since a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, it follows that men are obligated at their peril to learn and apply the true doctrines of the gospel.

this gospel compendium will enable men, more effectively, to "teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom"; to "be instructed more perfectly in theroy, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel,in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient" for them "to understand." (D and C 88:77-78)

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standered works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.

Where added explanations and interpretations were deemed essential, they have been taken from such recognized doctrinal authorities as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and Joseph Fielding Smith.

Two persons have been particularly helpful in the actual preparation of the work: 1. Velma Harvey, my very able and competent secretary, who with unbounded devotion and insight has typed manuscripts, checked references, proofread, and worked out many techincal details; and 2. Joseph Fielding Smith , Jr., my brother in law, who both set the type and made many valulable suggestions as to content and construction.

Abundant needed and important counsal has also come from Milton R. Hunter, my colleague on the First Council of the Seventy; Marvin Wallin, of Bookcraft; and Thomas S. Moson, of the deseret News Press. Salt Lake City, Utah June 1, 1958 --Bruce R. McConkie.

NOW READ THIS OVER AND PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HE IS UNSURE OF WHAT HE BELIEVES, HE SOUNDED LIKE HE KNEW WHAT HE BELIEVED AND WHY, AND EVERYONE EXECPTED WHAT HE TAUGHT. JUST A THOUGHT, Rick b.

[Nighthawke]

...AND EVERYONE EXECPTED WHAT HE TAUGHT. JUST A THOUGHT, Rick b.

What do you mean when you say "everyone execepted what he taught"?

[Guest Edward]

For the work itself, I assume sole and full responsibility. Observant students, however, will note that the four standered works of the Church are the chief sources of authority quoted and that literally tens of thousands of scriptural quotations and citations are woven into the text material.

As I have stated before, not being an Apostle Bruce R. McConkie was not speaking for the Church when writing Mormon Doctrine. It was his sole work, it was not the work of the Church nor would it have been since it dealt with to many principles, doctrines, beliefs, teachings that have not been clarified by revelation, and as such it cannot be construed to represent the actual beliefs of the Church. The Church has never had a revelation that stated what the "church of the Lamb of God," is but it does say that it is the "saints of God," to go further than that I would have to speculate, wrest some scriptures and imply what I think is meant by "saints of God."

I find it strange that people want honest answers and the lds get upset, like with just curious for example. what is wrong with wanting to know the truth,

Nothing is wrong with "wanting to know the truth," but everything is wrong with continuing to ask someone to provide an official answer when there is none, and when you have been provided with people's opinions to continue to ask inane questions.

NOW READ THIS OVER AND PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW HE IS UNSURE OF WHAT HE BELIEVES, HE SOUNDED LIKE HE KNEW WHAT HE BELIEVED AND WHY

Who isn't sure of their opinion? What Bruce R. McConkie believed is besides the point because 1) he wasn't the Prophet, Seer and Revelator, 2) he wasn't an Apostle, and 3) he wrote the book by himself, and it was entirely his opinion. The only time you could say that Bruce R. McConkie was speaking for the Church was when he quoted and cited scriptures, and if you wanted to go further you could include instances where he quoted from the Prophet, or an Apostle but even doing that doesn't change the fact that he understand one thing, wrote it down on paper and many people disagreed with him. His understanding is his understanding, my understanding is my understanding, but neither of us speak for the Church. We hold the same priesthood. We read the same scriptures, we have access to the same teachings, writings and words of both living and dead prophets and apostles, we both have the same access to the spirit, inspiration and revelation. It is as simple as that.

AND EVERYONE EXECPTED WHAT HE TAUGHT. JUST A THOUGHT

Really, and you know this how? Did they write books or make statements saying: "We accept everything Bruce R. McConkie taught." Or do you think that because people have read his book that they automatically agree with everything he has said. I know I don't, so I can say that at least one person didn't accept what Bruce R. McConkie taught. How about others? And who is this "everyone?" If everyone accepted what Bruce R. McConkie taught does that include Catholics, atheists, Buddhists, a 4 year old, etc.

Also for all the people who slam bruce and claim he was wrong, here is the preface to the 1958 edtion MD.

I could care less what another person has said when he wasn't the Prophet or an Apostle. So take your preface to the 1958 edition and include it with everything else he got wrong. LOL, ROFL, HOBP

Edit: To clarify Bruce R. McConkie was ordained an Apostle on 12 October 1972, after both editions of Mormon Doctrine were already published (1st Edition - 1958 and 2nd Edition - 1966). So quoting from Mormon Doctrine as authorative is in error, since at the time he wrote the book he was not sustained as a "prophet, seer, and revelator" and he was acting of his own accord.

[Guest Just Curious]

Nothing is wrong with "wanting to know the truth," but everything is wrong with continuing to ask someone to provide an official answer when there is none, and when you have been provided with people's opinions to continue to ask inane questions.

Hey big Ed...if there is no official answer then how can you say one church is true and others are not....don't you remember what Joseph Smith went into the woods to pray about? If a church is not true how can it be the church of the lamb of God? Can't you see my confusion and questions...I mean heck if Joseph Smith had them and I still have them and the LDS church has no "official doctrine" then doesn't that infer that Josephs questions were not fully answered either? I mean you really enjoy calling me dumb but let's face it, facts are facts and truth is eternal. Eternal truth is just that, it was true from the beginning and will still be true at the end. If there is no church of the lamb of God then what makes any one church true over another, if there is no church of the devil what makes any one church false over another...sorry to bore you but this is as important a doctrine as there possibly is for anyones eternal progression...for if you do not belong to the church of the lamb of God then you belong to the church of the devil...

[Guest Edward]

Hey big Ed...if there is no official answer then how can you say one church is true and others are not....

Because man doesn't have all truth, nor is man omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. Let's start with Article of Faith 9: "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Not having an official answer doesn't mean that the Church isn't true, it simply means that we don't have all knowledge. God dispenses knowledge as he sees fit, when he sees fit and how he sees fit. He is not our puppet, nor does he come at our beck and call. There are many things we do not know, such as the day and time that God will come (does this mean that the Church isn't true) again. The Church doesn't provide official answers where there has been no revelation. If the Prophet hasn't received a revelation he is not going to define what the church of the Lamb is, because that would be his opinion and he wouldn't do that to the members of the Church for God wouldn't tolerate it.

If a church is not true how can it be the church of the lamb of God?

Again a Church may have much truth, but not be true, and still not be the church of the devil. It has been made clear in the scriptures what the "church of the devil" is, but it has not been made clear what the "church of the lamb" is, but insofar as it is the "saints of God," or they who are "pure in heart," etc. Many LDS believe as I do that the church of the Lamb are all those who would follow Christ, are sincere and want truth. The Church is the physical organization of the church of the firstborn on earth. The organization is just the means by which we reach God, it has the authority of Jesus Christ, and acts in His name here on earth. The word church as used in the Book of Mormon is an "assembly of people" who believe alike. If you think you are going to get me to say: Belong to my Religious Organization or burn in hell you are wrong. I leave that to the protestants, BAC, and Evangelicals. Every person who inherits a kingdom of Glory belong to the church of the Lamb. The church of the devil is those who fight against the Lamb.