Which church is "the church of the Lamb of God"

[Guest Just Curious]

Edward you bring up some very valid points and questions but let me ask you, in all sincerety, which do you honestly believe is more important for you and me and every other person who has, is or will live upon the earth to know to achieve his/her highest rightful place in heaven. Is it more important to know what to feed your cow/horse/pig/chickens or to know which is the church of the lamb of God and which is the church of the devil? Please pray about this question and answer it honestly.....then you will understand my search for this answer. After all Edward, wasn't Joseph Smith doing the same exact thing in the sacred grove that spring morning in 1820?

[Guest Edward]

Man's greatest hope is to "increase in knowledge," and to progress both spiritually, and temporally. You ask: "Is it more important to know what to feed your cow/horse/pig/chickens or to know which is the church of the lamb of God and which is the church of the devil?" The answer to this in my opinion is quite simple, it is more important to "know what to feed your cow/horse/pig/chickens than it is to "know which is the church of the lamb of God and which is the church of the devil." You will not inherit any degree of glory if you do not provide for your own, if you cannot take care of yourself, and what is yours temporally you will inherit nothing spiritually. As I believe it was Maslow who said, the primary need of man is "physiological," the second "safety," etc. I do not believe it is as important to know which is the "church of the lamb of God or which is the church of the devil" so long as we are trying to do what is right, striving to do what we can to be good and moral people we will find that over time knowledge will be accrued that will allow us to make the decisions that are of eternal importance.

After all Edward, wasn't Joseph Smith doing the same exact thing in the sacred grove that spring morning in 1820?

Joseph Smith was looking for the true Church of Christ, and not the church of the lamb. The earthly Church is temporal in nature, and the church of the firstborn (the church of the lamb) is not of this earth, those who belong to it our adopted into it, and will only belong to it in the fullest sense once they inherit a kingdom of Glory. I would suggest you spend more time worrying about doing the right thing, living a moral life than to worry about a theological question which has no bearing on which is the true and living Church of Jesus Christ as organized on the earth. I have no doubt that the Church of the Firstborn (the church of the lamb) is all those who follow after Christ, seeking Him in all diligence and living worthy lives. I also have no doubt that the earthly organization which has been given the authority to act in His name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and they are not the same thing.

[Tetraforce]

The church of the Lamb of God are the believers and the church of the devil are unbelievers.

Matt. 6: 24

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

There are only 2 churches one is the 'the believers / Israel / church of the Lamb of God' and 'the world / Babylon / the great and abominable church of the devil'.

The prophet Nephi's vision, he saw the future of the world. Nephi

[tubaloth]

Just a couple of thoughts.

First would anybody change their ways if they found out they belonged to the wrong Church? I mean I guess does Just Curious know the book of mormon is true and is willing to follow it?

Just wondering

Lets see what we know about the Church of the Lamb of God

(1 Nephi 14:11-14.)

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

So we know that this

[rick b]

Hey ED, I'm just curious about something you said:nor is man omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. Do you or other lds really believe the meaning to these words. If so, how is it you or LDS can claim God is ALL POWERFUL yet cannot creat the heavens and earth from nothing. Also if you or LDS believe God is present everywhere at once then How can mormonism Teash the Holy Ghost is A god part of the Godhead Yet is not able to be present everywhere at one time, but is limited by only being able to be in one place at one time, yet the BOM teaches the Holy ghost fell on many people at one time, this would apper to be a contrdiction. Rick b

[tubaloth]

I thought I answered this for you before. I know I have posted this all on here before. Please read carefully.

How Does God Have Constant Knowledge of the Whole Universe?

It is an established doctrine of the Church that God is in constant communication with the whole universe, and every person therein. He may, himself, as he has done at various times, appear to men. But, since God is a personal being, he must use helps and helpers to secure complete, constant contact with all creation. His associates in the spirit world, angels and other personages, may be sent out to administer God's purposes. There may also be other means beyond man's present knowledge.

While little has been revealed on the subject, it would appear that the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead, is, as it were, in charge of the divine system of communications. It is one of his functions to manifest the will and power of God to the children of men.

Joseph Smith, the Prophet, speaking of the Priesthood says that, "The Holy Ghost is God's messenger to administer in all those priesthoods." (Teachings, p. 323) Brigham Young speaks similarly of the Holy Ghost: "He is God's messenger that diffuses his (God's) influence through all the works of the Almighty." (Discourses, p. 30-1941 edition) James E. Talmage says: "The Holy Ghost may be regarded as the minister of the Godhead, carrying into effect the decisions of the Supreme Council." ( Articles of Faith , p. 160.) Such a commission is of vast importance, and justifies the dependence on the Holy Ghost, by believers in God and Christ.

The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, and of limited dimensions, who cannot, himself, be everywhere present. (D. & C. 130:22) Therefore, President Joseph F. Smith says, "The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son. ... The Holy Ghost in person may visit men." (Gospel Doctrine , p. 61) Consequently, the Holy Ghost needs must use agents in performing his mission.

The chief agent or agency by which the Holy Ghost accomplishes his work, is usually spoken of as the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of God. It is a universe-filling medium, or influence, by which divine messages may be transmitted to man, and man's desires carried to the powers of heaven. It may be comprehended, to a limited degree, in our day, by recent discoveries and inventions. Any one of us may send messages by wireless or telegraph to persons far distant, or actually speak with them over the telephone. By radio devices, far distant objects may be controlled and directed in their movements, in the air or on land or sea.

This agent is also called the light of truth, as in a revelation to the Prophet Joseph Smith:

Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space -- the light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (D. & C. 88:12, 13)

This divine universe-filling medium, which holds all things together, places every soul born into the earth in communication with the members of the Godhead. Through it flow the truth and power that touch the intelligence and conscience of men.

That we understand the nature of the Holy Spirit cannot be claimed. Yet, its effects are well known. Only by analogy with discovered phenomena of nature does it become somewhat understandable. We know the effects of electricity or magnetism, but their nature is yet far from human comprehension.

In summary, the Holy Ghost, a personage who cannot be everywhere at the same time, may at will visit any individual in person; but by the universe-filling influence radiating from God, or the Light of Truth, the Holy Ghost may be in constant touch with all creatures. In reading the scriptures, one should carefully determine whether the writer has in mind the person of the Holy Ghost, or the means by which he performs his mighty work among men.

It has caused some confusion that the terms, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, and Spirit of God, as rendered by Bible translators with an imperfect knowledge of the gospel, appear to be interchangeable. In common speech, also, the tendency has been to use these terms loosely, without exact definition. This has confused students of the gospel and has led to frequent questions. With the restoration of the gospel, this confusion vanished. We can now better understand the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith, that, "The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim, ... where all things ... are manifest, past, present, and future." (D. & C. 130:7, This place is in our poor human words, the control station of God's all-pervading influence.

(John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations [salt Lake City: Improvement Era], 63.)

[rick b]

What you posted is taken from lds sources. If those are false then it really does not matter what the prophets taught because it is not true. can you support any of this from the Bible alone? I would say NO you cannot. Why? Because the bible teaches other wise. Also this here proves the difference between the weak little powerless god the LDS serve and the POWERFUL CREATOR BAC serve. and this shows the difference in the trinity between us. Rick b.

[Guest Just Curious]

You know what I find incredible...take tubaloths response..it has things from many sources like JoD, Teachings, Gospel Doctrine, etc and yet when someone brings up something from those same sources that is controversial or downright contradictory to what Jesus taught...the wail goes up of "that isn't doctrine, you are taking it out of context...etc etc etc...." So you see clearly when it supports your position it is ok to accept it yet when it doesn't that is not an acceptable source. Somehow that just isn't quite right is it....nope...because if you can't accept something they said one day but can accept something they said the day before or the day after then what is that really telling you. Please ponder this and understand your actions, you may finally begin to think for yourself for a change and see things more clearly. You know, I think I will continue to put things to the litmus test...a very good one I might add....I simply take anything anyone after Jesus time has said and compare what that person says with what Jesus said on that topic......if anyone has a better test I would love to hear it, or if anyone thinks that test is not a good test I would love to hear it too....

[Tetraforce]

Members a more qualified to know which things are to be used out of our oun sources. Where you have no right to attempt to interprite anything for us.

[tubaloth]

Wow! This is kind of strange. Because this all falls inline completely with what I have been thinking about for the last couple of weeks.

Let me quickly make a comment on what rick b said:

[ScriptureLover]

rick b -

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first bookof it's kind ever published.

It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.

I have not read all this thread, but I find this quote an egegrious error. What? B.H. Roberts gets no credit?! Outrageous!

[Guest Edward]

So to apply the test on what John A. Widtsoe wrote.

1. Does the Spirit come when I read this? To me it does. This makes a lot of sense and isn

[Guest Edward]

rick b -

This Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first bookof it's kind ever published.

It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom.

I have not read all this thread, but I find this quote an egegrious error. What? B.H. Roberts gets no credit?! Outrageous!

Indeed it is an egregious error (and Bruce R. McConkie probably made that statement out of a sense of pride at what in his mind was having accomplished such a great work), but the facts show that other such books have been written.

Parley P. Pratt, "A Voice of Warning and Instruction to all People: Containing a Declaration of the Faith and Doctrine of the Church of Latter-day Saints"

Franklin D. Richards, "A Compendium of the Faith and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: Compiled from the Bible; and also from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and other Publications of the Church"

These two among others such as Orson Hyde, B.H. Roberts, James E. Talmage, and other leaders and scholars within the Church have published numerous works on the doctrines of the Church. To claim "this Work on Mormon Doctrine Is unique--the first bookof it's kind ever published. It is the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom" it false. It simply is not true, and that statement should be corrected to reflect the facts and I feel it incumbent upon me as I am sure others are to to make a correction. It wasn't the first major attempt to digets, explain and analyze all of the important doctrines of the Kingdom.

[James Muir]

In Doctrine and Covenants, section 10, the Lord declares that His church consists of those who repent and come unto Him. Anything or anyone that diverts us away from Him is of the church of the devil.

67 Behold, this is my doctrine