Ancient Lake Tonawanda

[Anijen]

deleted dbl post

[Anijen]

Please understand that I left Mormonism for the Catholic Church because the Book of Mormon didn't seem credible to me. What really struck me as folly was the attempt to try to save the Book of Mormon by postulating a two Cumorah theory with the real Cumorah in Central America or Mexico when the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith seem to identify the hill as being in New York. Olive's book is the first real attempt I have seen to support the traditional understanding of Mormonism and I find it much more credible than anything coming out of FARMS. I could actually accept an understanding which has the Book of Mormon occuring in the Eastern United States because it would square with the teachings of Mormon prophets.

Sorry I find this a little perplexing, you argue that New York is a more credible theory yet you say "the Book of Mormon didn't seem credible to me"

Perhaps you left too hastily. I welcome you back brother its still true. It was when you had a testimony and nothing has changed it still is true.

[Bart Burk]

Olives book has some issues. Before you commit one way or another I suggest reading some reviews I believe FAIR and FARMS offers some. Personally I find her book lacking any credibility and is serious lacking any scholarship. I compared her maps and they don't resemble anything like what the text of the Book of Mormon claims.

My link

I have read your link. It doesn't impress me much. We know much more about Mayan culture than we do about Moundbuilder culture. It thus doesn't make much sense to deny the Book of Mormon could be a reflection of Moundbuilder culture as opposed to Mayan. I think Mormon apologists at FARMS are trying to read Mayan culture into the Book of Mormon text with very little real evidence. So why not take the Book of Mormon and where it was discovered at face value and assert that it occurred in the Eastern United States?

[Bart Burk]

Could you give us a link or quote what you think is so supportive? Because I find this hard to believe. What in particular do you feel is so compelling? How have you compared her theories to Sorenson's or others? Seriously saying Olives book "offers more support for the Book of Mormon than anything I have seen out of FARMS." is like comparing Homer Simpson to Truman Madsen. I just don't see it. Agreed this is only my opinion but a well studied out one at that.

No, not really, Palmyra hasn't changed that much.

There is a lot more than you are probably aware. There are plenty of directional clues and other geographical hints that help us determine geography.

Again please support this. An old map comparing to the text of the Book of Mormon or something.

I'm talking about the difference in Palmyra in 1820 and what it might have been in 400 A.D. I found Olive's idea that when the Book of Mormon is talking about up and down it's talking about elevation, not direction. The biggest problem with the FARMS idea is simple -- the Hill Cumorah is in New York according to where Joseph Smith found the plates. That is the unanimous understanding of every Mormon prophet I have seen discuss the issue. We are only going to reject the New York idea because the Book of Mormon doesn't mention snow? Seems a thin reason to do so.

[Anijen]

I have read your link. It doesn't impress me much. We know much more about Mayan culture than we do about Moundbuilder culture. It thus doesn't make much sense to deny the Book of Mormon could be a reflection of Moundbuilder culture as opposed to Mayan. I think Mormon apologists at FARMS are trying to read Mayan culture into the Book of Mormon text with very little real evidence. So why not take the Book of Mormon and where it was discovered at face value and assert that it occurred in the Eastern United States?

Fair enough I appreciate your response. Allow me a little reasoning why I accept it. As I have studied the mound builders or the Hopewell culture the thing that is such a glaring weakness for me is that the moundbuilders never had the population sizes that are required from what the text of the Book of Mormon requires. I find the cold climate such a factor I would think it should have been mentioned (not even one mention). No cement evidence or written language. There are many other reasons I do not accept the moundbuilders as the people of the BofM. However having said that it is my belief that a trading route or system was working perhaps not directly but in geographical increments. I believe that perhaps some of the indians indigenous to the US where some of the northern migrating people. All these questions Mesoamerica answers very well and matches the right time.

[mfbukowski]

I have read your link. It doesn't impress me much. We know much more about Mayan culture than we do about Moundbuilder culture. It thus doesn't make much sense to deny the Book of Mormon could be a reflection of Moundbuilder culture as opposed to Mayan. I think Mormon apologists at FARMS are trying to read Mayan culture into the Book of Mormon text with very little real evidence. So why not take the Book of Mormon and where it was discovered at face value and assert that it occurred in the Eastern United States?

Yes, I thought I knew you ;-) I think we duked it out a time or two over there!

Sounds interesting to me- I would be interested in your thoughts on this. Frankly though I am not an expert on any of this, but certainly being familiar with the two Cumorah theory, I visited Western NY and had some very strong spiritual impressions there which I did not expect to get.

My conversion is based on the spirit, so I really don't care which theory "wins" but I am not afraid to challenge the now "orthodox" two Cumorah view.

We had a discussion a while back about the finger lakes and how they could fit into a New York interpretation of the data, so if you have ideas I would love to hear them, for one.

Anijen- what do you see is the "deal breaker"?

Edit: Anijen- no need to answer- I posted this before I saw your reply above

[Anijen]

I'm talking about the difference in Palmyra in 1820 and what it might have been in 400 A.D. I found Olive's idea that when the Book of Mormon is talking about up and down it's talking about elevation, not direction.

I agree and BTW so do many others.

New York in 400 AD hasn't changed that much geographically . Olives disappearing lakes etc exposes some flaws we are talking many thousands of years for change she describes not 1600 years.

The biggest problem with the FARMS idea is simple -- the Hill Cumorah is in New York according to where Joseph Smith found the plates.

I agree it is where the plates were deposited and where Joseph retrieved them. there is no problem here let alone "the biggest problem."

That is the unanimous understanding of every Mormon prophet I have seen discuss the issue.

I also agree the early saints and the leaders thought that since Joseph retrieved the plates from that hill, they naturally assumed it was the same place Mormon buried the plates (we no this not so from Mormon 6:6) Moroni had many years of traveling (approx 38 years) before he buried the plates into the Hill Cumorah in New York.

We are only going to reject the New York idea because the Book of Mormon doesn't mention snow? Seems a thin reason to do so.

Again I'm perplexed, you are chastising me a little for not accepting NY (for snow)but again you claimed earlier you yourself are incredulous toward the BofM. Yes it would be thin reasoning for me to accept one theory over another just because snow is not mentioned, but I do not for one reason, I have many many reason for my acceptance of Mesoamerica and many reason I do not accept the Great Lakes area.

[Bart Burk]

Yes, I thought I knew you ;-) I think we duked it out a time or two over there!

Sounds interesting to me- I would be interested in your thoughts on this. Frankly though I am not an expert on any of this, but certainly being familiar with the two Cumorah theory, I visited Western NY and had some very strong spiritual impressions there which I did not expect to get.

My conversion is based on the spirit, so I really don't care which theory "wins" but I am not afraid to challenge the now "orthodox" two Cumorah view.

We had a discussion a while back about the finger lakes and how they could fit into a New York interpretation of the data, so if you have ideas I would love to hear them, for one.

Anijen- what do you see is the "deal breaker"?

Edit: Anijen- no need to answer- I posted this before I saw your reply above

I agree that in the end it doesn't make a lot of difference -- if the Book of Mormon is true it doesn't matter where it takes place. I just would be more likely to have faith in a Book of Mormon story taking place in the U.S. because the promise of a promised land seem to me to be fulfilled more by the U.S. and Canada than the third world countries of Latin America.

Returning to Mormonism would be extremely difficult because I was forced to resign when they found out I had been baptized Catholic. When I became a Catholic you couldn't get rid of someone because they joined another church, but then they changed the Church Handbook so that joining another church was a reason to get rid of someone. Even though my wife and kids are Mormon I suspect it would be a difficult hurdle to try to return.

[Anijen]

Again for clarification I do not want to take anything away from the New York area. I believe that the area in and around Palmyra and Cumorah to be extremely spiritual. IMO the Sacred Grove is one of the most Holiest sites on Earth. The Hill is also a very spiritual and of immense historical interest for us Latter-day Saints. It is where I believe Moroni after wandering in the wilderness for a long time finally buried the plates. I believe he was led their by God because that area would 1400+ years would be the future home of the Smiths. It is where he tutored Joseph on many gospel subjects (geography not necessarily being one of them). It is where our Savior and Heavenly Father appeared to Joseph and where the Savior restored His church. It is where the Book of Mormon was translated and published. There is a very spiritual atmosphere there as there should be.

[handys003]

So does anyone have a clue when Ancient Lake Tonawanda disappeared? I can't find anything on the internet other than Olive's claim.

Here is an article on ancient hunting sites under Lake Huron vicinity. This will give you a clue on how dry the areas were in age relation.

http://www.physorg.com/news165753727.html

[Anijen]

I agree that in the end it doesn't make a lot of difference -- if the Book of Mormon is true it doesn't matter where it takes place. I just would be more likely to have faith in a Book of Mormon story taking place in the U.S. because the promise of a promised land seem to me to be fulfilled more by the U.S. and Canada than the third world countries of Latin America.

Returning to Mormonism would be extremely difficult because I was forced to resign when they found out I had been baptized Catholic. When I became a Catholic you couldn't get rid of someone because they joined another church, but then they changed the Church Handbook so that joining another church was a reason to get rid of someone. Even though my wife and kids are Mormon I suspect it would be a difficult hurdle to try to return.

Although difficult it is well worth the effort. I for one would welcome you back with open arms. I greatly respect the Catholic church and its members. I love the beauty in so many of its cathedrals and enjoy the liturgical aspects. I would encourage with all earnestness of my heart and implore you to come back. It is true and I would assume your family would be strengthened by you doing so.

[Bart Burk]

Here is an article on ancient hunting sites under Lake Huron vicinity. This will give you a clue on how dry the areas were in age relation.

http://www.physorg.c...s165753727.html

Isn't the article talking about 10,000 years ago? I am more interested in what it was like in 400 A.D. According to Olive a thesis written at the State University of New York at Buffalo in 1958 says that Lake Tonawanda still existed 1,000 years ago so that during Book of Mormon times it would have been there as a large inland sea. I'm not sure we know enough about the Moundbuilders to dismiss them as the people the Book of Mormon would be discussing.

[Sevenbak]

Please understand that I left Mormonism for the Catholic Church because the Book of Mormon didn't seem credible to me. What really struck me as folly was the attempt to try to save the Book of Mormon by postulating a two Cumorah theory with the real Cumorah in Central America or Mexico when the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith seem to identify the hill as being in New York. Olive's book is the first real attempt I have seen to support the traditional understanding of Mormonism and I find it much more credible than anything coming out of FARMS. I could actually accept an understanding which has the Book of Mormon occuring in the Eastern United States because it would square with the teachings of Mormon prophets.

Bart, I'm sorry what you have gone through. As one who doesn't buy into the modern theory, nevertheless, I can tell you that many here do, and are firm in their testimonies of the truthfulness of the BoM. I hope you can resolve the issues you have/had. For what it's worth, I think Joseph Fielding Smith knew exactly what you must be going through when he penned this refutal of the modern theory of a Limited Mesoamerican setting.

"LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case."

"Where is the Hill Cumorah?" by Joseph Fielding Smith

In addition, and as a caution, I would be careful about buying into the Limited Great Lakes theory too. The Church leaders not only believed BoM lands were in the Northeast, but in the Midwest, South, and Mesoamerica as well. In fact, Joseph and the bretheren taught that Zarahemla was in Guatemala, but that the "Land Northward" to which they later came and died en masse was in N. America, culminating in New York.

Orson Pratt summed it up pretty well here:

"The extracts from the Book of Mormon, published in a former Part of this article, show that the people of " NEPHEL" or " NEPHITES" dwelt in the country of the mounds, from fifty years before Christ, till three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ." - Orson Pratt

[handys003]

Isn't the article talking about 10,000 years ago? I am more interested in what it was like in 400 A.D. According to Olive a thesis written at the State University of New York at Buffalo in 1958 says that Lake Tonawanda still existed 1,000 years ago so that during Book of Mormon times it would have been there as a large inland sea. I'm not sure we know enough about the Moundbuilders to dismiss them as the people the Book of Mormon would be discussing.

I don't necessarily agree that Lake T was around a thousand years ago. I would tend to believe that if such glaciers were melting and receding the water table would be much higher and such lake would have blended in with Lake Huron and Ontario. If she really wants to prove such existence then vegetation such as trees that existed at that time that would died once uprooted by the water would give an age indication. Example would be such as Puget Sound where geologist and oceanographers found of Ancient Tsunamis changed the environment over a thousand years ago. Puget sound was not the same topography back then. The scientist discovered via the study of vegetation such as trees. The sites she is indicating could well go back to 10k years ago as an ancient Hunter gather site. More evidence to support her supposition is needed. It is to thin.

[Bart Burk]

One red flag about Olive's work is that she seems to rely on the Michigan Relics as proof of the Book of Mormon. I was under the impression they are proven forgeries.

[Anijen]

One red flag about Olive's work is that she seems to rely on the Michigan Relics as proof of the Book of Mormon. I was under the impression they are proven forgeries.

Yes they are forgeries. The Apostle James E Talmadge also studied them and remarked that they were fraudulent

[Sevenbak]

Yes they are forgeries. The Apostle James E Talmadge also studied them and remarked that they were fraudulent

Elder Talmage was a wise man.

"The final struggles between the Nephites and Lamanites were waged in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah, in what is now the State of New York, resulting in the destruction of the Nephites as a nation, about 400 A.D. The last Nephite representative was Moroni, who, wandering for safety from place to place, daily expecting death from the victorious Lamanites, wrote the concluding parts of the Book of Mormon, and hid the record in Cumorah. It was the same Moroni who as a resurrected being, gave the records into the hands of Joseph Smith in the present dispensation." (The Articles of Faith, ch. 14, p. 260.)

"President McCune and I went early to the Grove. Later we were conveyed by auto to the Hill Cumorah by Brother Bean. We climbed the hill and traversed it back and fore and examined it with interest and care. It is the largest of the many glacial drumlins of the locality, and is the most prominent of all the elevations in the neighborhood. Aside from the fact that the plates of the Book of Mormon were taken from this hill, I was greatly interested in looking from its summit over the surrounding region and in contemplating the tremendous battle-scenes of the past, whereby first the Jaredites and later the Nephites were exterminated as nations. I believe the Book of Mormon account without reservation or modification. I believe, also, and express it as my personal conviction, that many ancient records, possibly those from which Mormon made his abridgment, are still concealed in that hill. I believe also that they will be brought forth in the Lord's due time, and that until that time no man will succeed in finding them." (James E. Talmage journal entries, 1920, pg 132-133)

I should add here, for those who don't get my dry humor... that I'm not supporting the forgeries either, or doubting Elder Talmage. There is ample evidence of a great civilization here in N. America to support the statements of the brethren. We don't need Meldrum's spin to make their statements any more valid.

[mfbukowski]

I agree that in the end it doesn't make a lot of difference -- if the Book of Mormon is true it doesn't matter where it takes place. I just would be more likely to have faith in a Book of Mormon story taking place in the U.S. because the promise of a promised land seem to me to be fulfilled more by the U.S. and Canada than the third world countries of Latin America.

Returning to Mormonism would be extremely difficult because I was forced to resign when they found out I had been baptized Catholic. When I became a Catholic you couldn't get rid of someone because they joined another church, but then they changed the Church Handbook so that joining another church was a reason to get rid of someone. Even though my wife and kids are Mormon I suspect it would be a difficult hurdle to try to return.

It would not, all you would have to do is be re-baptized. I know that on some authority. Obviously the biggest hurdle would be your beliefs- but I am just saying that if you resolved that, just know that re-joining the church would not be difficult.

[mfbukowski]

Here is an article on ancient hunting sites under Lake Huron vicinity. This will give you a clue on how dry the areas were in age relation.

http://www.physorg.com/news165753727.html

That is, of course a significant distance from Western NY

[Sevenbak]

That is, of course a significant distance from Western NY

I think the point is that the water levels of the region have changed dramatically.

Truth is, we don't know what it was like 2000 years ago, or even 1600 years ago.

The 60 mile (90 miles by new studies) Great Hopewell Road now has streams and swamps covering parts of it.

Trying to justify geography using existing maps is problematic. This is a big issue for the Meldrum theory and the LGT of Mesoamerica.

[Bart Burk]

It would not, all you would have to do is be re-baptized. I know that on some authority. Obviously the biggest hurdle would be your beliefs- but I am just saying that if you resolved that, just know that re-joining the church would not be difficult.

Probably couldn't hurdle that -- I'm of the firm opinion that the Catholic Church is the only unified voice with enough prominence to fight the moral drift we are currently experiencing with regards to issues such as abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality. Take that voice away and the whole world will collapse into a moral sewer and eventually the complete victory of either Islam or Socialism. That is not to denigrate the other Christian and religious communities fighting the immorality of the age -- I just don't think any of them are prominent enough to stop it without the voice of Catholicism. I'm through the first five chapters of 2 Nephi. It seems to me that while there are nuggets of inspiration in the first five chapters of 2 Nephi that the awful writing causes the message to get lost unless you really concentrate.

[Sevenbak]

Probably couldn't hurdle that -- I'm of the firm opinion that the Catholic Church is the only unified voice with enough prominence to fight the moral drift we are currently experiencing with regards to issues such as abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality. Take that voice away and the whole world will collapse into a moral sewer and eventually the complete victory of either Islam or Socialism. That is not to denigrate the other Christian and religious communities fighting the immorality of the age -- I just don't think any of them are prominent enough to stop it without the voice of Catholicism. I'm through the first five chapters of 2 Nephi. It seems to me that while there are nuggets of inspiration in the first five chapters of 2 Nephi that the awful writing causes the message to get lost unless you really concentrate.

Hope this helps.

Ether 12:23-26

[Bart Burk]

Hope this helps.

Ether 12:23-26

The writing is awful. That doesn't make it false.

[mfbukowski]

Probably couldn't hurdle that -- I'm of the firm opinion that the Catholic Church is the only unified voice with enough prominence to fight the moral drift we are currently experiencing with regards to issues such as abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality. Take that voice away and the whole world will collapse into a moral sewer and eventually the complete victory of either Islam or Socialism. That is not to denigrate the other Christian and religious communities fighting the immorality of the age -- I just don't think any of them are prominent enough to stop it without the voice of Catholicism. I'm through the first five chapters of 2 Nephi. It seems to me that while there are nuggets of inspiration in the first five chapters of 2 Nephi that the awful writing causes the message to get lost unless you really concentrate.

I mostly agree with you regarding the importance of the moral voice of Catholicism, but it can be appreciated and even helped and supported without being a Catholic, as we learned in our Prop 8 effort.

From my point of view, I would not compromise my personal family unity and religious identity for a choice of membership in an organization dedicated to keeping social morality, especially when my leaving that organization does not compromise my ability to work with the organization anyway.

In other words- you could leave, and work toward the same goals, improve family unity, and I wager the Catholics wouldn't miss you.

I know I am putting that bluntly and over-exaggerating what you are saying, but I wanted to do that to point out the possibility that that may be something like what you are saying. I of course know nothing about you and it is really none of my business anyway!

If you don't have a testimony of the BOM, that is another issue of course, and only you can answer that one.

[mfbukowski]

The writing is awful. That doesn't make it false.

That frankly was a bit of a hurdle for me too, but what you say here is exactly right!

I think the quality of the writing is proof that no one helped Joseph, and it all came through him. But that is my opinion. And it came to pass that I said that.