Moroni, the 'Guardian Angel of America'

[elguanteloko]

Heck, I don't understand the Universe, yet I trust it has a purpose. Perhaps "faith" would be a better word?

As to who the Protector of America was protecting, well, it was the futurity of the United States of America.

Did the 'futurity' of the United States of American require the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Native Americans and Native Latin Americans? They seemed more friendly than we were...

[elguanteloko]

Try the King James Version.

That's what it says: ³⁰"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." From http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5%3A30&version=KJV

"as I hear, I judge," He said. How do you judge, if I may know? Can you even judge if you have no understanding at all just as you admitted here?

[Sevenbak]

That's what it says: ³⁰"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." From http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+5%3A30&version=KJV

"my judgment is just"

That's what we were talking about. You didn't bold that part. Even Christ sought not His own will, but the Father's. How are we to elevate ourselves to deciding his judgements are unjust. Even Christ bowed to the Father's will, shouldn't we?

[Sevenbak]

Did the 'futurity' of the United States of American require the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Native Americans and Native Latin Americans? They seemed more friendly than we were...

Already answered in the references from the BoM. But you should know that it will be returned on our own heads. The Native Americans will turn upon the Gentiles as a lion among the beasts of the Forest.

Here's a few references.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=84010fd41d93b010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&hideNav=1&pageNumber=1&maxResults=20&NARROW_BY=SCRIPTURES%2FBOM&query=lion+deliver&bucket=Scriptures&dateFrom=&dateTo=&AUTHOR_CATEGORY=&AUTHOR_NAME=&FORMAT=&dateFromDisplay=&dateToDisplay=&findByAuthor=

Personally, I believe that's starting to happen now, with the immigration issues. They have been promised this land again, and it will be them who are the primary builders of the New Jerusalem.

God is at the helm, we are only along for the ride.

[elguanteloko]

"my judgment is just"

That's what we were talking about. You didn't bold that part. Even Christ sought not His own will, but the Father's. How are we to elevate ourselves to deciding his judgements are unjust. Even Christ bowed to the Father's will, shouldn't we?

You can bow if you want but don't say you think His judgements are just because you clearly can't say that.

[elguanteloko]

Already answered in the references from the BoM. But you should know that it will be returned on our own heads. The Native Americans will turn upon the Gentiles as a lion among the beasts of the Forest.

Here's a few references.

http://lds.org/ldsor...=&findByAuthor=

Oh! So it was wrong to kill them, right? On one side it was wrong to kill them and that's why it will be returned on our own heads... but on the other side it was right because God permitted it and because they stood in the way of progress.

Which one is it?

[Sevenbak]

You can bow if you want but don't say you think His judgements are just because you clearly can't say that.

Sure I can, as long as He is doing the judging and not me... or you.

[elguanteloko]

Sure I can, as long as He is doing the judging and not me... or you.

again, how can you judge if an action is even good if you don't even know His reasons for doing it?

[Sevenbak]

Oh! So it was wrong to kill them, right? On one side it was wrong to kill them and that's why it will be returned on our own heads... but on the other side it was right because God permitted it and because they stood in the way of progress.

Which one is it?

You really should take the time to read those references and the verses surrounding them. It's about returning to God, keeping his commandments and getting blessings restored unto a people who once forsook God, but come back to him.

It's one of the principle messages or themes in the BoM. It won't do either of us any good to argue about it if we don't understand the implications of the prophecies.

I hope you would take the time to follow those BoM links.

[Sevenbak]

again, how can you judge if an action is even good if you don't even know His reasons for doing it?

Because HE did it, and HIS judgements are just.

Now we're going in circles...

[elguanteloko]

You really should take the time to read those references and the verses surrounding them. It's about returning to God, keeping his commandments and getting blessings restored unto a people who once forsook God, but come back to him.

It's one of the principle messages or themes in the BoM. It won't do either of us any good to argue about it if we don't understand the implications of the prophecies.

I hope you would take the time to follow those BoM links.

[Uncle Dale]

Did the 'futurity' of the United States of American require the

slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Native Americans...

It seems to have required starting a war with Mexico, in order

to capture California and associated lands --- which, by the way,

put an end to any hopes for an independent State of Deseret.

Maybe we can thank Moroni for that.

If Moroni could step in and interrupt young Smith's slumber

in Manchester, New York -- you'd think he might have also been

able to stop by the Second Battle of Manassas, Shiloh or Antietam

and given "the boys" a little talk on brotherly love.

Or, at least told John D. Lee in 1857 that attacking an emigrant

wagon train was not the Will of the Lord.

Oh well...

UD

[elguanteloko]

Because HE did it, and HIS judgements are just.

Now we're going in circles...

Because your reasoning is circular. Anyways, I think I did wrong in expect more from someone who accepts Orson's statements without much thought. My bad.

[Sevenbak]

On that note, I'm off to bed. This thread has gone off in a different direction, but it's been a good discussion. Have a good night.

[Sevenbak]

Because your reasoning is circular. Anyways, I think I did wrong in expect more from someone who accepts Orson's statements without much thought. My bad.

I return the love. Have a good night.

[elguanteloko]

It seems to have required starting a war with Mexico, in order

to capture California and associated lands --- which, by the way,

put an end to any hopes for an independent State of Deseret.

Which just because we were able to do it justifies the action, apparently.. That seems to be the argument here. Since we were able to do it Moroni protected us. Since Moroni protected us God protected us. Since God protected us our action was justified. What a pitiful position!

[nosmelone]

Which just because we were able to do it justifies the action, apparently.. That seems to be the argument here. Since we were able to do it Moroni protected us. Since Moroni protected us God protected us. Since God protected us our action was justified. What a pitiful position!

It seems you just refuse to read those Book of Mormon references Seven referred to earlier, because what you just posted there has absolutly nothing to do with those references. It wasn't justified just because we can do it. It was justified because according to the Book of Mormon the Lamanites turned their hearts away from the teachings of God thus bringing the wrath of Gods judgement (not ours) upon them. But don't worry God is just and has promised a return of the Lamanites (also referrenced by Seven) which is to some degree is where I think Seven was trying to go with this whole discussion.

I've wondered about this myself and have questioned the whole immigration situation. With secure borders could the Lost Tribes of Israel come to America to receive their Patriarchal Blessings from the gathering "Gentiles" before returning to Jerusalem? Not if the final scenes before the second coming roll forth at a high speed. This is partially why I think our borders will never be secure. I have spent many hours wondering about this (I'm sure its almost secured my salvation )

If the Lamanites will have the Gospel returned to them from the Gentiles why do the largest number of converted (Lamanites) seem to be from Central\South America and not North America? Don't get me wrong I do think that indigenous tribes of North America will eventually accept the Gospel and but it will truly be a "marvelous work and a wonder". I can't help but to think of what I feel are direct ties between the Hopi and the Anti Nephi Lehies (People of Ammon) that are readily accepted by many of the Hopi but it hasn't brought complete conversion. Anyways Helen sekaquaptewa's book "Me and Mine" shares some interesting insights on their beliefs and traditions as well as Zula Brinkerhoff's "Gods Chosen People of America". Those are just a few interesting points I've pondered on.

Oh and for those who have read "He Walked the Americas" by L Taylor Hansen, there are many stories in there that could have easily been referring to Moroni rather than the Savior. (just something to think about)

[elguanteloko]

It seems you just refuse to read those Book of Mormon references Seven referred to earlier, because what you just posted there has absolutly nothing to do with those references. It wasn't justified just because we can do it. It was justified because according to the Book of Mormon the Lamanites turned their hearts away from the teachings of God thus bringing the wrath of Gods judgement (not ours) upon them.

First of all, I hope you realize you are trying to justify numberless killings and the enslavement of innocent peaceful people just because they did not worship the God of your choice... good job!

Secondly, if you read Orson's comments he seems to support his view of Moroni's help by stating that we had not been defeated significantly since Columbus (who 'we' is is a matter of what position he supports; he then puts those he supports in the same bunch as being moved for the same cause, i.e. God's cause). So, since "we were not defeated" is used as a sign that Moroni helped the conquerors, then God must be behind all this mess and since God supports these acts of violence then those acts must be justified.

[Sevenbak]

First of all, I hope you realize you are trying to justify numberless killings and the enslavement of innocent peaceful people just because they did not worship the God of your choice... good job!

Secondly, if you read Orson's comments he seems to support his view of Moroni's help by stating that we had not been defeated significantly since Columbus (who 'we' is is a matter of what position he supports; he then puts those he supports in the same bunch as being moved for the same cause, i.e. God's cause). So, since "we were not defeated" is used as a sign that Moroni helped the conquerors, then God must be behind all this mess and since God supports these acts of violence then those acts must be justified.

You are still refusing to read the references, and are making your own statements about what you think the issue is, regardless of our references.

I can't help you, and it does no good to keep discussing this with you if you won't at least try to understand where we are coming from from a scriptural point of view.

I will give you one more, and this will be my last post to you. Read it or not, It's your supposed issue, not mine.

3 Nephi 16:

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles

[Gillebre]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aztecs into human sacrifices and cannibalism? Sounds a lot like the Lamanites I've read about in the Book of Mormon

If such is the case, then the Spaniards did us all a service by wiping them out. In my belief, the Aztecs were a vile and filthy people, completely deserving of the judgment they faced.

Back to the OP, thanks for that. I really enjoyed reading your snippet. I have yet to look at the whole text, but you've given me things to think about, so I thank you.

[Sevenbak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aztecs into human sacrifices and cannibalism? Sounds a lot like the Lamanites I've read about in the Book of Mormon

If such is the case, then the Spaniards did us all a service by wiping them out. In my belief, the Aztecs were a vile and filthy people, completely deserving of the judgment they faced.

Back to the OP, thanks for that. I really enjoyed reading your snippet. I have yet to look at the whole text, but you've given me things to think about, so I thank you.

You're welcome, I find this stuff very facinating.

As to the Aztecs, they weren't alone in human sacrifice and cannibalism. It existed in N. America as well.

"Cannibalism, Headhunting and Human Sacrifice in North America."

http://www.amazon.com/Cannibalism-Headhunting-Human-Sacrifice-America/dp/0911469338

I'm reminded of this verse from Mormon 5, that speaks of the later generations of Lamanites after the Nephite destructions, becoming worse than anything that the Nephites or existing Lamanites ever did. We know from Mormon that they were practicing human sacrifice and cannibalism before the end. That it was to get even worse, speaks volumes to me!

15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.

16 For behold, the Spirit of the Lord hath already ceased to strive with their fathers; and they are without Christ and God in the world; and they are driven about as chaff before the wind.

17 They were once a delightsome people, and they had Christ for their shepherd; yea, they were led even by God the Father.

18 But now, behold, they are led about by Satan, even as chaff is driven before the wind, or as a vessel is tossed about upon the waves, without sail or anchor, or without anything wherewith to steer her; and even as she is, so are they.

19 And behold, the Lord hath reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land.

20 But behold, it shall come to pass that they shall be driven and scattered by the Gentiles; and after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant which he made unto Abraham and unto all the house of Israel.

21 And also the Lord will remember the prayers of the righteous, which have been put up unto him for them.

22 And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?

23 Know ye not that ye are in the hands of God? Know ye not that he hath all power, and at his great command the earth shall be rolled together as a scroll?

24 Therefore, repent ye, and humble yourselves before him, lest he shall come out in justice against you

[krose]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Aztecs into human sacrifices and cannibalism? Sounds a lot like the Lamanites I've read about in the Book of Mormon

That's interesting. It's been a long time since I read it, but I don't remember that.

Okay, I just did a search and found where it mentions sacrificing captured Nephite women and children. Can you point out the reference to cannibalism? Thanks.

[Sevenbak]

That's interesting. It's been a long time since I read it, but I don't remember that.

Okay, I just did a search and found where it mentions sacrificing captured Nephite women and children. Can you point out the reference to cannibalism? Thanks.

Both the Nephites and the Lamanites practiced cannibalism.

Moroni 9:

7 And now I write somewhat concerning the sufferings of this people. For according to the knowledge which I have received from Amoron, behold, the Lamanites have many prisoners, which they took from the tower of Sherrizah; and there were men, women, and children.

8 And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them.

9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue

[Uncle Dale]

...weren't the Aztecs into human sacrifices and cannibalism?

Sounds a lot like the Lamanites I've read about in the Book of Mormon

...

You mean this? --

they were a very indolent people, many of whom did worship idols,

and the curse of God had fell upon them...

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/bm.htm#270a

This VERY indolent people built the great Aztec Tenochtitlan?

Must have been during a sudden flare up of energy, eh?

Or, perhaps this? --

And it came to pass that the Lamanites did take possession of the

city Desolation, and this because their number did exceed the

number of the Nephites. And they did also march forward against

the city Teancum, and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her,

and did take many prisoners of women and of children, and did

offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods...

http://solomonspalding.com/SRP/MEDIA/bm.htm#525a

Of course THIS proves the Book of Mormon true -- for there is no way

Joseph Smith could have known about the Aztecs' human "sacrifices unto

their idol gods," in 1827.

UD

[Sevenbak]

Is that reformed egyptian on their cloaks?

But I like this one... after all, we should represent both the light and dark skinned natives, right?