Joseph Smith as an Honest, Honorable, and Sincere Man

[why me]

Despite the fact that I've left the Church, I still have a great deal of respect and love for Joseph Smith. He is still a prophet in my mind.

That is interesting. Why did you leave the church?

Joseph Smith is an interesting guy when one can look at him with an unbiased intent. He accomplished much in his short life and had the personality to either stir love or hate. Not many people were inbetween those two poles during his lifetime as prophet.

[why me]

If President Monson were to say he's not very righteous, I would know what he meant in the same way I know what Joseph Smith meant, and it wouldn't mean they were not righteous.

It's just hard for a righteous man to come out and say he is righteous, especially in light of how righteous God, our Father, and Jesus Christ are. We all can do better, even when we do what is our very best right now.

Of course what we have of that quotation in my signature piece is reported speech and not a direct line in a text by Joseph. If I use my imagination, I can see people just a little disappointed in his behavior as they would watch do life. I know that he loved to wrestle and I am sure that he behaved like an average guy who loves wrestling at times. And people judged him accordingly through his daily interactions. And so, his statement. The point is: he made that statement and that was quite a statement to make.

And who can say that they are righteous? None when we consider our imperfections in actions and behavior.

[changed]

The more I read about Joseph and his family, the more I like him.... but then, I'm a bit of a rough stone myself

Are you familiar with the concept of how righteous men can't look upon any kind of sin without a sense of abhorrence for it?

Having more than one wife can be righteous, but it can also be a sin, depending on several factors, and all you need to see to see it as something that should be abhorred is to see it as a sin.

Polygamy is a sacrifice...it's sort of like the atonement, a necessary sacrifice, but not one that we celebrate, we don't put crosses on our church buildings, nor do we flaunt polygamy.

For me, once you know why it is necessary, it's a whole new story.

link

[Mudcat]

Of course it does. One must be evaluated against the common background of their time.

I would find myself in agreement at least partially ERayR.

But my thoughts on the matter are that things may not be that divergent from a cultural standpoint between then and now. At least in respect to this sort of thing.

Certainly a claim that a person can find buried items of value with some sort of stone seem strange to most people in a modern setting. But contrasting that with the notion that there are some people who believe a "psychic" can perhaps help them pick lottery numbers, seems similar in many respects.

Gallup did a poll a while back, apparently 32% of Americans believe in clairvoyance on some level. We have TV shows based around psychic investigators and so forth. IIRC there have even been instances when law enforcement agencies have contracted people who claimed psychic abilities to help in investigations.

For those that do believe in such things, perhaps such claims would not seem delusional, however for those that don't maintain such thinking, such claims in the absence of proof are likely dismissed a priori as a bit off the beam .

[lukas_s]

That is interesting. Why did you leave the church?

Not wanting to derail the thread too much, I'll just say this: I don't believe the Church today is anymore led by God than any other church. That is to say, I reject the "one true church" claims of the LDS faith. I believe, at one time, it certainly may have been God's Church at one time, but through various and sundry actions by the leadership over the past 180 years, it has become a shade of what it formerly was.

[Tarski]

This is an interesting question but humans are very complicated and Joseph Smith was exceptional and some of our assumptions about how people should work might not be appropriate.

It pays to ask some similar or related questions:

1) Was James Strang an honorable, honest and sincere man?

2) Can a sincere man tell fish stories if he feels it serves a higher purpose? Can the fish stories be about really really big fish so to speak?

3) Was Paul Dunn an honorable, honest and sincere man?

4) Do there exist unusual human beings for which the evidence provided by their actual behavior is highly contradictory?

5) Are there figures in history who are regarded by some or many as having done evil or to have been deceptive, but whose personal journals are full of honorable sounding, sincere souding, righteous sounding prose? A look at such for wide variety of famous people might be interesting. Ghandi, Castro, Bush, Obama, Slobodan Milo

[Deborah]

Each of us has a personal life narrative and self image which is less than accurate but likely to be reflected in our personal writing especially if we picture ourselves as somehow great.

Interesting, because it seems to me in Joseph's personal writing he is very humble and notes his faults (ie his journals). He was the first to recognize his weaknesses. I think we need to distinguish between his revelations, in which he spoke with great assurance and his personal writings which were very much those of a humble rough stone trying to do what is right.

[Tango]

I like this latest "Mormon Scholars Testify" entry, because its author, based on years of working with the legal and business documents associated with Joseph Smith, is firmly convinced that Joseph Smith was an honest and an honorable man, and a sincere one:

http://mormonscholar...gordon-a-madsen

That's my firm conviction, as well, based upon my own readings in published anthologies of his "personal writings." It's nothing that I can neatly prove, in the same way that I can construct a demonstrative syllogism, and others will, no doubt, dismiss my understanding of the man. But it's my very, very strong sense, after years of reading things that Joseph didn't write for publication: If I have any sense at all for genuineness in a fellow human being, any capacity to discern character in people, Joseph Smith was a sincere man.

Which, I think, is a very important thing to know.

The options seem to me, broadly, that he was either mad, or a liar, or a prophet. I'm convinced that he wasn't a liar, and I see no signs of insanity (and wouldn't regard madness as an adequate explanation anyway, if the Witnesses and his other associates are taken into account).

Then why the cover up? If he was as you claim, then why does the church hide facts? No..DCP, it is you who are dishonest with yourself and all you come in contact with.

Here is the original version

Emphasis added in CAPITALS to what has been 'removed'.

Times and Seasons Vol 3, pg 749. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. APRIL 1, 1842

History of Joseph Smith:

"I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors and displayed the weakness of youth and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, TO THE GRATIFICATION OF MANY APPETITES offensive in the sight of God.

In consequence of these things I often felt condemned for my weakness, and imperfections; when on the evening of the above mentioned twenty first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him: for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation as I had previously had one."

...........................................................

Now here is the Sanitised version we were fed with,

Notice that 'TO THE GRATIFICATION OF MANY APPETITES' conveniently removed and more words added (Added words emphasised in CAPITALS).

Joseph Smith History:

"

[USU78]

Then why the cover up? If he was as you claim, then why does the church hide facts? No..DCP, it is you who are dishonest with yourself and all you come in contact with.

Here is the original version

Emphasis added in CAPITALS to what has been 'removed'.

Times and Seasons Vol 3, pg 749. CITY OF NAUVOO, ILL. APRIL 1, 1842

History of Joseph Smith:

"I was left to all kinds of temptations, and mingling with all kinds of society, I frequently fell into many foolish errors and displayed the weakness of youth and the corruption of human nature, which I am sorry to say led me into divers temptations, TO THE GRATIFICATION OF MANY APPETITES offensive in the sight of God.

In consequence of these things I often felt condemned for my weakness, and imperfections; when on the evening of the above mentioned twenty first of September, after I had retired to my bed for the night, I betook myself to prayer and supplication to almighty God for forgiveness of all my sins and follies, and also for a manifestation to me, that I might know of my state and standing before him: for I had full confidence in obtaining a divine manifestation as I had previously had one."

...........................................................

Now here is the Sanitised version we were fed with,

Notice that 'TO THE GRATIFICATION OF MANY APPETITES' conveniently removed and more words added (Added words emphasised in CAPITALS).

Joseph Smith History:

"

[maupayman]

What I find pathetic is those who would use the honest self-appraisal by a mature mind of its teenaged foibles as a hammer against him.

Pathetic is being so very motivated to find fault at all costs.

Reminds me of something:

I agree with you USU, that this is a bit ridiculous. However, can you at least admit that it is strange that they changed his original account? This account is new to me, but it does seem silly to back and edit his accounts.

[Deborah]

--Pathetic-

Good grief! He was talking about when he was a teenager. He probably clarified the account because of prurient minds who would think the worse.

[USU78]

I agree with you USU, that this is a bit ridiculous. However, can you at least admit that it is strange that they changed his original account? This account is new to me, but it does seem silly to back and edit his accounts.

I've known about the "cheery disposition" stuff since I was a kid. I don't know what you're talking about. Tango's been sipping the elderberry wine from Sandra's faux crystal stemware again, methinks.

[Deborah]

dup

[Tango]

I've known about the "cheery disposition" stuff since I was a kid. I don't know what you're talking about. Tango's been sipping the elderberry wine from Sandra's faux crystal stemware again, methinks.

My point "pathetic" is directed at the LDS church, a fraudulent organization that I belonged to, and in order to pretend that Joseph Smith is something more than even he admitted, dishonest. What the church does in white washing its own history I find at the very least pathetic. Honesty, honorable, and sincere? laughable.

[USU78]

My point "pathetic" is directed at the LDS church, a fraudulent organization that I belonged to, and in order to pretend that Joseph Smith is something more than even he admitted, dishonest. What the church does in white washing its own history I find and the very least pathetic. Honesty, honorable, and sincere? laughable.

Yet you are so tied to the "fraudulent," "pathetic" organization that you cannot leave it alone. Hence your presence here.

Why?

Share the joke with us.

[Hestia]

Tango will not be allowed to respond with any more insults on this thread.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Tango will not be allowed to respond with any more insults on this thread.

Clean up crew on isle six.

[BuddayCheck25]

There are several documents available for the public to view such as this (see links) that would indicate non-honest behavior was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

tryhttp://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

Also tryhttp://josephsmithpa...l/11Jun1844.htm

[USU78]

There are several documents available for the public to view such as this (see links) that would indicate non-honest behavior was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

tryhttp://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

Also tryhttp://josephsmithpa...l/11Jun1844.htm[/url

Huh . . . interesting timing, that. One cannot help but wonder if there's a sock missing somewhere.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Huh . . . interesting timing, that. One cannot help but wonder if there's a sock missing somewhere.

Hahah, that is the best line I have heard in a while. I think a sock is indeed missing.

Calling-Clean up crew on isle 7.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

There are several documents available for the public to view such as this (see links) that would indicate non-honest behavior was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

tryhttp://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

Also tryhttp://josephsmithpa...l/11Jun1844.htm

Non honest behavior. You mean like slaying a man, or perhaps lying to the Pharoh?

Maybe we can get a budday to check that out 25 times?

[Ceeboo]

Huh . . . interesting timing, that. One cannot help but wonder if there's a sock missing somewhere.

Love you USU78!

Simply love you!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[why me]

There are several documents available for the public to view such as this (see links) that would indicate non-honest behavior was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

tryhttp://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon430.htm

Also tryhttp://josephsmithpa...l/11Jun1844.htm

Survivalism can bring out many traits. I often wonder if antimormons at the time of JS did not exist just how JS would have behaved and just how the church would have florished within a stationary community with growth being the reason for the mormons to expand. But...that didn't happen. Mormons were driven out and home burned. And JS had the similiar experience. I suppose that this experience can force someone to hedge his or her bets.

[Deborah]

There are several documents available for the public to view such as this (see links) that would indicate non-honest behavior was characteristic of Joseph Smith.

So sad when someone is intent on disparaging the integrity of someone he never knew. I'm always reminded of the scriptures which talk of the beam in one's own eye. There are far more accounts that speak of Joseph's integrity and these by people who were actually close to him and knew him best. (your URL btw isn't working.)

[DanGB]

I like this latest "Mormon Scholars Testify" entry, because its author, based on years of working with the legal and business documents associated with Joseph Smith, is firmly convinced that Joseph Smith was an honest and an honorable man, and a sincere one:

http://mormonscholarstestify.org/1477/gordon-a-madsen

That's my firm conviction, as well, based upon my own readings in published anthologies of his "personal writings." It's nothing that I can neatly prove, in the same way that I can construct a demonstrative syllogism, and others will, no doubt, dismiss my understanding of the man. But it's my very, very strong sense, after years of reading things that Joseph didn't write for publication: If I have any sense at all for genuineness in a fellow human being, any capacity to discern character in people, Joseph Smith was a sincere man.

Which, I think, is a very important thing to know.

The options seem to me, broadly, that he was either mad, or a liar, or a prophet. I'm convinced that he wasn't a liar, and I see no signs of insanity (and wouldn't regard madness as an adequate explanation anyway, if the Witnesses and his other associates are taken into account).

Dan,

Relatve to thoughts I had on a different thread, do you believe the perception of Joseph would be the same today if he stood trial back in 1844 for the charges he was jailed for in Carthage? Do you believe his reputation by the Church today stood any risk if he was tried?