Hewbrews 1:1-2

[thatjimguy]

This has been quoted to me in a debate about an end to prophets...any help?

Hebrews 1:1-2

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days? he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

[RBoylan]

The problem is that, by taking the absolutist view that many critics (e.g., Kurt Van Gordon in his booklet, Mormonism) is that it would preclude the letters of Paul, the Catholic epistles, the Revelation of St. John, etc., being divinely inspired Scripture, because for it to be "God-breathed" revelation, God would have to inspire the authors of such texts. Indeed, it would mean that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews was not inspired when he wrote it, as it would preclude post-ascension revelation!

In reality, all that these verses state is that God spoke in the past through the prophets and during the time of Christ, through His Son, Jesus Christ. It does not touch upon the question of post-ascension revelation, apostles, and prophets, so in reality, critics who bring up this passage against LDS teachings are, essentially, begging the question.

[changed]

(New Testament | Revelation 11:Heading)

CHAPTER 11

In the last days two prophets shall be slain in Jerusalem

[Lost in Ohio]

The problem is that, by taking the absolutist view that many critics (e.g., Kurt Van Gordon in his booklet, Mormonism) is that it would preclude the letters of Paul, the Catholic epistles, the Revelation of St. John, etc., being divinely inspired Scripture, because for it to be "God-breathed" revelation, God would have to inspire the authors of such texts. Indeed, it would mean that the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews was not inspired when he wrote it, as it would preclude post-ascension revelation!

In reality, all that these verses state is that God spoke in the past through the prophets and during the time of Christ, through His Son, Jesus Christ. It does not touch upon the question of post-ascension revelation, apostles, and prophets, so in reality, critics who bring up this passage against LDS teachings are, essentially, begging the question.

[Flyonthewall]

This has been quoted to me in a debate about an end to prophets...any help?

Hebrews 1:1-2

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days? he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

To me it is a stretch to read that interpretation into this verse.

I interpret this passage as: "In the past we have heard God's word through prophets, but recently, we've had a special treat to hear the word of God through His Son...".

Nothing about there never being any more prophets, in fact, as was pointed out, Revelation states that there will be at least two more prophets to come.

[hagoth7]

(New Testament | Revelation 11:Heading)

CHAPTER 11

In the last days two prophets shall be slain in Jerusalem

[RBoylan]

To me it is a stretch to read that interpretation into this verse.

I interpret this passage as: "In the past we have heard God's word through prophets, but recently, we've had a special treat to hear the word of God through His Son...".

Nothing about there never being any more prophets, in fact, as was pointed out, Revelation states that there will be at least two more prophets to come.

I agree. The entire text of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant that could never "perfect" (i.e., offer full forgiveness of sins [e.g., Heb. 9:9]), and the New Covenant, with Christ as the Great High Priest and His High Priestly intercession, eternal priesthood, and immortality and sinlessness, in contrast with the Old Covenant priests and sacrifices. Critics much wrench the opening verses of the Epistle to the Hebrews is eisegesis. END. It is funny. Many Bible-believing Christians charge LDS of engaging in eisegesis to support our beliefs, yet they have no problems engaging in such to critique LDS beliefs and practices. One of those things that makes me go "hmmm . . . "

And Lost in Ohio--glad you enjoyed my answer

[Vance]

If Jesus was the last prophet, then why did He say this?

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

Notice the future tense.

[thatjimguy]

About the Book of Revelation I hope these weren't the two prophets you were talking about, since they don;t seem to be Prophets at all.

"The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth."

[Flyonthewall]

About the Book of Revelation I hope these weren't the two prophets you were talking about, since they don;t seem to be Prophets at all.

"The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth."

Is it because you think prophets don't torment people? Elijah sure tormented a lot of people by sealing up the heavens. Moses sure tormented a lot of folks by warring with them.

[Sevenbak]

(New Testament | Revelation 11:Heading)

CHAPTER 11

In the last days two prophets shall be slain in Jerusalem

[thatjimguy]

Is it because you think prophets don't torment people? Elijah sure tormented a lot of people by sealing up the heavens. Moses sure tormented a lot of folks by warring with them.

I guess I do think that. When I read that verse in Revelation, it sure doesn't come across that they are tormenting people in righteousness. I mean, tormenting people and righteousness don't exactly flow in the same sentence to me. "tormenting the people of the earth" sounds like "bad guy" to me. Comparing Elijah and Moses to the same doesn;t sound right.

[Flyonthewall]

I guess I do think that. When I read that verse in Revelation, it sure doesn't come across that they are tormenting people in righteousness. I mean, tormenting people and righteousness don't exactly flow in the same sentence to me. "tormenting the people of the earth" sounds like "bad guy" to me. Comparing Elijah and Moses to the same doesn;t sound right.

I think verse 6 right above that reference outlines what kind of torment they will do:

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Sounds a lot like Elijah and Moses -esque

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

This has been quoted to me in a debate about an end to prophets...any help?

Hebrews 1:1-2

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days? he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

I respond:

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

(Revelation 19:10)

Also, I would point to Galatians chapter 1, where Paul states that he received the Gospel not from flesh and blood, but from revelation from on high, and that all have that power.

[hagoth7]

Sounds a lot like Elijah and Moses -esque

Having such power doesn't necessarily mean they would exercise said power.

Moses represents the law.

Elijah represents the prophets.

The passage simply implies they would be imbued w/the power/authority of both.

[hagoth7]

...I mean, tormenting people and righteousness don't exactly flow in the same sentence to me. "tormenting the people of the earth" sounds like "bad guy" to me.

Well...as far as it is translated correctly.

I suspect the intended meaning of the passage is different from standard translations.

The word in question can also be translated:

"to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal"

I suggest comparing that interpretation of the prophets in Rev 11 with this, and this, and this.

Which means the prophets could have tested those who "dwell" on the earth.

And those dwellers could have rejoiced at their passing...

...without any tormenting going on.

So the prophets aren't the bad guys in that scenario.

Most modern translations simply miss the intended point of the passage.

[Flyonthewall]

Having such power doesn't necessarily mean they would exercise said power.

Moses represents the law.

Elijah represents the prophets.

The passage simply implies they would be imbued w/the power/authority of both.

I agree. Prophets don't wield power willy nilly, but there is a purpose to it.

Moses did send plagues upon Egypt, and Elijah did seal up the heavens, which is the reference Revelations was giving about the two prophets in the last days.

Whether it means torment or test(sometimes that is a fine line...just ask Job), it still fits.