Tithes going to fund BYU

[elguanteloko]

I raise my hand to sustain the first presidency of the church, the Twelve Apostles, the Seventy etc. I am confidant that my tithes are being used in a wise manner by those whose job it is to make the decisions of how, where, and when to spend those funds. I have the option of not sustaining those brethren, and I have the option of not paying my tithing.

Glenn

but since you already said you leave the decisions to them and you are OK with them already, then I guess the thinking has indeed been done for you.

[LeSellers]

Whenever we get into this discussion, I always recall the revealed instructions for building the tabernacle at the foot of Sinai (which it replaced as the Jew's Temple of Jehovah) and of the descriptions of Solomon's Temple.

It is difficult to imagine the amount of gold used to cover the walls of the second floor, or for the nails. I dont know about the cost of badgers' skins in 1,500 bc, and just how many kinds of walls and ceilings did God need, anyway? The Mercy Seat and its Seraphim were only viewed one day a year and only by one man. A gold-covered altar, I mean, really!

I am, in fact, a little disappointed with the plainness of the new, smaller temples. While attending the open house, I saw, in the Reno Temple, a corner of one of the fa

[LeSellers]

It does not matter who orders its construction, Cold Steel. That God tells you to do something does not automatically mean you are correct in doing so.

Yes, it does.

Lehi

[elguanteloko]

I think building a temple is an act of worship itself and the act of beautifying it with special and often unique things is one way that worship can be expressed through taking the time and effort to produce exceptional work through sacrifice and dedication

You can express worship in many ways. Making an effort to make simple and functional temples while having the needs of others in mind seems like another way to make something truly exceptional through sacrifice and dedication. Don't you think that seems better than beautifying a building that will become a symbol of our Church many times?

[elguanteloko]

Yes, it does.

Lehi

how come?

[Calm]

That God tells you to do something does not automatically mean you are correct in doing so.

Interesting concept in conjunction with the description of the temple being the House of the Lord.

[elguanteloko]

If one believes in the scriptures, it should be very clear that in regards to temples the Lord has commanded an "excessive" expenditure to beautify them.

and that does not mean it is correct to do so.

[elguanteloko]

Interesting concept in conjunction with the description of the temple being the House of the Lord.

is it? how come?

[Calm]

You can express worship in many ways. Making an effort to make simple and functional temples while having the needs of others in mind seems like another way to make something truly exceptional through sacrifice and dedication. Don't you think that seems better than beautifying a building that will become a symbol of our Church many times?

No.

Unlike you, I think God knows what he's doing a lot better than I do, I have no desire to correct the Lord in how he wants things done.

[Calm]

is it? how come?

Why worship God if you think you know better than He does or you think his commands are wrong? With that attitude though I can understand why you don't feel the need to have all that great of a place dedicating to encountering the Lord in a unique and sacred way.

[elguanteloko]

elguanteloko:

Do not accuse others of being dishonest.

Skylla

'seems like' all of a sudden becomes an accusation, huh?

I won't make the mistake again, Skylla

[Deborah]

While attending the open house, I saw, in the Reno Temple, a corner of one of the fa

[elguanteloko]

Why worship God if you think you know better than He does or you think his commands are wrong?

I did not say I knew better than God. I am indeed saying I know 'something' and that 'something' does not include knowing God's reasons to act. If you know why God commands so many cruel and unjust things please inform me.

With that attitude though I can understand why you don't feel the need to have all that great of a place dedicating to encountering the Lord in a unique and sacred way.

I don't consider being in a 'beautified' building as sacred or unique. I do indeed consider it unique and sacred to be in a building that was built to do His work. Very different things.

[elguanteloko]

No.

Unlike you, I think God knows what he's doing a lot better than I do, I have no desire to correct the Lord in how he wants things done.

I am not asking you what you think God thinks, I am asking you what YOU think.

[Sleeper Cell]

I can only speak to my own experience, but when I enter the temple my intent is to leave the temporal world behind and instead attempt to experience the eternal world. There is a time and place for everything and in the temple, that is the time for me to seek Heavenly Father directly, not through my usual 'mundane' way of service and seeing Him in my brothers and sisters, but more of a face to face encounter. I do not come to the temple to dwell on the problems of the world, if I come with a problem my intent is to turn that burden over to the Lord, the end result being either he gives me a solution and i can put aside the worry and concern and instead allow myself to be saturated with his peace and glory or he doesn't give me a solution but allows me to place it completely in his hands where I am blessed not to be troubled by concerns but feel with his peace. While knowing that others' lives have been improved always makes me happier, I do not see how this knowledge would somehow enhance my encounter with the Lord. Being surrounded by quiet and beauty separated from the woes of the world, by symbolic decorations that create in me thoughts and feelings of higher realms....now that does enhance my ability to focus on the eternal Now as well as to look forward to a time where the world will be a reflection of that great beauty.

And experiencing that elevation within the temple encourages me to work harder toward making the world that way.

If my experience is not unusual, it is possible that in the long run not much is lost in the amount of services and resources that are devoted to the poor and needy. If the temple encourages us to become more like God including caring for our brethren, the glory of the experience that helps us connect with the Lord in such a direct fashion might actually increase the overall humanitarian efforts outside of the temple in the long run.

That has been my experience, as well If our friend insists on viewing the temple from the prospective of a bean counter, he should, at least, make sure that he counts all the beans.

So one could choose to look on the temple as a long term investment in the improving of the quality of life for all, especially the poor as the experience brings more and more to the oneness of the Lord rather that interpreting them as a drain on the humanitarian funds.

Unfortunately, if one is determined to do so, one can manufacture a reason to find fault with anything that is

[selek]

I am starting to worry that my tongue-in-cheek suggestion about the bread might be taken seriously and inspire a new anti-Mormon argument.

I personally thought it was the driest of humor- nearly Sahara-like in it's droll amusement.

Of course the irony is that some people will pick up and run with whatever we Mormons drop- whether it's a pearl of wisdom or something best used to fertilize the roses....

[Calm]

I am not asking you what you think God thinks, I am asking you what YOU think.

From others' responses, I've made it very clear what I think.

I also think I trust the Lord is correct even when I don't know all of his reasons because the reasons I do know have been shown time and time again in my life to be the correct ones.

I also think that given past experience with your reasoning on this board and what I've seen of God's reasoning in my life, that his reasoning ability scores way beyond yours.

[elguanteloko]

From others' responses, I've made it very clear what I think.

I thought we were talking about this comment that you responded to: "You can express worship in many ways. Making an effort to make simple and functional temples while having the needs of others in mind seems like another way to make something truly exceptional through sacrifice and dedication. Don't you think that seems better than beautifying a building that will become a symbol of our Church many times?"

you have not answered it.

I also think I trust the Lord is correct even when I don't know all of his reasons because the reasons I do know have been shown time and time again in my life to be the correct ones.

I am not saying your trust in God in incorrect or bad. If God treats you better than anybody else in the history of mankind that would still not make God necessarily good at all. I can tell you of many times were God has definitely not been good and kind as He probably has been to you.

I also think that given past experience with your reasoning on this board and what I've seen of God's reasoning in my life, that his reasoning ability scores way beyond yours.

...

[Daniel Peterson]

It does not matter who orders its construction, Cold Steel. That God tells you to do something does not automatically mean you are correct in doing so.

That's the kind of statement that shows with painful clarity how unqualified I am to participate in discussions such as this one:

To my simple mind, if God says to do it, it's the right thing to do. Obviously, I'm not only too dense to grasp the argument here, I'm dumber than God.

[elguanteloko]

That's the kind of statement that shows with painful clarity how unqualified I am to participate in discussions such as this one:

To my simple mind, if God says to do it, it's the right thing to do. Obviously, I'm not only too dense to grasp the argument here, I'm dumber than God. (bold added by elguanteloko)

how did you reach that very important conclusion, Dan?

[Daniel Peterson]

how did you reach that very important conclusion, Dan?

I came to the conclusion that I was not the most intelligent, wisest, and morally best being in the Universe. Nor was anybody else I knew. (I hadn't encountered you yet.)

That left God as the only person worthy of worship.

I know, I know. You've got me rethinking my position on that one.

Give me time. I'm slow.

[elguanteloko]

I came to the conclusion that I was not the most intelligent, wisest, and morally best being in the Universe. Nor was anybody else I knew. (I hadn't encountered you yet.)

That left God as the only person worthy of worship.

I don't think I am following you. How did you go from saying that you are not the most moral being to saying that God is?

I know, I know. You've got me rethinking my position on that one.

Give me time. I'm slow.

...

[selek]

I don't think I am following you. How did you go from saying that you are not the most moral being to saying that God is?

...

Is it just me, or does this entire tortured train of conversation bear a remarkable resemblance to a petulant three year old repeating "Why?" to every answer she's given?

Are we there yet, Mommy?

[elguanteloko]

Is it just me, or does this entire tortured train of conversation bear a remarkable resemblance to a petulant three year old repeating "Why?" to every answer she's given?

Are we there yet, Mommy?

yea, it's just got to be that stupid idea about understanding things. Silly me.

[Pahoran]

yea, it's just got to be that stupid idea about understanding things. Silly me.

Let's see.

1. You take issue with what you are pleased to call the "excessive" beautification of our temples;
   
2. Yet you provide no objective way to measure whether such things are "excessive" and no standard by which to measure them.
   
3. Furthermore, you assert that Latter-day Saints should subject God's commandments to some other judgement (presumably yours.)
   

Is that it?

El, let me suggest something that clearly has not occurred to you: the Church of Jesus Christ does not help the needy because it has any moral or legal obligation to do so; it does so because it can.

Furthermore, contrary to a number of unspoken atheistic assumptions I see running through this thread for several pages: helping the poor is not the highest possible good.

I have reviewed the mission of the Church, and such foundational documents as the Articles of Faith. I do not find any warrant for your incessant carping.

Helping the poor is important to you. Great; go to it. Please stop agitating to make your priority the Church's as well. It's not going to happen.

Regards,

Pahoran