Joseph Translating out of a Hat

[canterdogs]

We are in agreement. Who has claimed that teh Father has had a mortal probation. Did Jesus have a mortal probabtion?

Correct he has always been our God. No one has claimed differently.

The bible disagrees with you. For we are the offspring (the greek can mean same species as) of God.

The bible never uses the word that God created every thing in the universe or exsistance. But for the most part I am not arguing this.

Nothing new here.

Who has claimed that the fall was upward? Nice straw man. And the bible again disagrees with you that "there is no sin that Christs' sacrifice does not cover. The sin agains that HG is unforgiveable.

More to come. So far you are not doing very well.

First the sin against the Holy Spirit is to reject the forgiveness of Christ. It means that you reject that you are sinful and are in need of a Savior. Of course God can't save someone who refuses to repent. This is the sin against the HS. This is well understood and it is simply wrong to bring it up in this context. I was referring to sins like murder etc. All these can be covered by Christ. Evidently in Mormonism murder can not be covered by the blood of Jesus - a direct contradiction of scripture which says that Christ is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Bible says that we are "adopted" as children of God. Of course the Greek word for offspring means sames species. When would "offspring" or "children" ever be used without that meaning. But does this really mean that we are the physical offspring of God, or does this simply mean that a human writer was using the best human term he could find? We see that Paul refers to us as being "adopted". Use of context has never been an LDS forte.

Jesus did not have a mortal probation. He came into the world out of love and mercy to save a fallen people. He has eternally been God, but out of His love for us He came. This is not mortal probation. This is a God who loves us, humbling Himself to save His creation. Paul says that Christ didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped or held onto, but out of His infinite love He became flesh in order to save us.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

We do not believe in an eternal regression of gods.

That is fine. The bible says nothing one way or the other on the matter. Feel free to reject it or accept it. It doesn't matter to me.

We do not believe in an eternal mother.

That is to bad. But again it is not skin off of my nose. Tell me if Man and Woman was created in God's image tell me how that works with out a female God of some sort?

We do not believe that God can be contained in a body.

This is not biblical doctrine. THere is nothing in the bible the explicitly tells us that God cannot be contained with in a body. Your belief is unfounded. Jesus has a body. Is it to much of a strech to thing that the Father has one too.

We do not believe that God can be contained period.

Again this is an unustifiable claim.

He is all powerful, infinitely holy, righteous and good.

So do we.

Man cannot attain godhood.

I guess you must ignore the bible then. That is a central theme of Christ's message is that we will be come like him and sit on the Father's throne as Christ has sat on the Father's throne.

Man cannot attain

Further, we believe that never attained His Godhood by working His way through a period of mortal probation. He has eternally been God and there is no other God.

Again, we agree with. We never claimed that God was not ever our God.

The Father did not physically procreate us.

You are right. We never claimed that he did physical create us. My mon and dad did that.

He did not physically procreate Jesus or Satan. Jesus and Satan are not spirit brothers. Nor are we spirit brothers and sisters of Jesus and Satan.

How could God physical create a spirit? Nothing like a straw man.

I think these are statements that are in contradiction to LDS doctrine.

Actually you have presented not a single contradiction. In fact it is you who have ignored the bible.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

First the sin against the Holy Spirit is to reject the forgiveness of Christ. It means that you reject that you are sinful and are in need of a Savior. Of course God can't save someone who refuses to repent. This is the sin against the HS. This is well understood and it is simply wrong to bring it up in this context.

I am not the one that was unequivocally proclaiming that there is not a single sin that you cannot be forgiven of. You have been proven wrong.

[Calm]

When I was in seminary, in Utah, during the late 60's, early 70's, we were told about Joseph Smith putting his face in a hat during the translation process.

California too.

[Calm]

It is mostly recollection. When I started following FAIR, very shortly after you started it, most of the accounts of the stone in the hat was criticed, and notice my words, because Whitmer (or whoever it was) was never in a position to see the translation. It isn't that it was wasn't written by Whitmer, printed in the Ensign, Church News or whatever. There was a defined level of skepticism.

The only skepticism I remember was about what was seen in the hat, not that the hat and the rock itself was used. There was also some debate on whether or not that was the only method used (and I believe it's generally accepted now that a variety of methods was used, the seer stone in the hat being a prominent method at one time, later not used so much).

[Chaos]

Canterdogs stop the preaching. You will be banned from the thread if you don't stop derailing it with sermons.

[urroner]

Once again, let me state that it seems that canterdogs can only seem to state his beliefs and opinions as if they were accepted facts and needed no evidence to back them up other than more unsubstantiated beliefs and opinions. Sounds like he has based his beliefs on circular logic and refuses to acknowledge that.

[canterdogs]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, I just wanna quickly respond to a couple of your replies.

Firstly, it is the LDS claim that God is indeed contained in a body, which you affirmed above. I made the point that God cannot be contained at all. Here is what King Solomon had to say on the dedication of the temple:

"But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

I don't feel I need add more than what Solomon has stated here. It's pretty clear. God cannot be contained.

Secondly, there is no reference to an eternal mother anywhere in scripture. There is no basis whatsoever for this belief.

And lastly, where in the Bible does it say that man can become a god? There are plenty of references to the faithful attaining resurrected and glorified bodies. There are references to being co-heirs with Christ. But the notion that men become gods is absolutely absent. We are not made equal with God. We cannot attain it. The glorious things we look forward to are only attainable in and through Christ. Christ is the eternal God, we are not. There is a vast difference between an eternal God and His finite creatures. This LDS notion that to become "like God" means that we will become a god is simply not found in scripture. Yes we are to strive to attain God's characteristics of love and mercy (Luke 6:36). This is what the image of God means. To reduce God to "an image made like unto corruptible man" is not what we are to do. To bring down the glory of God is an extreme blasphemy. I believe in the glorious and infinite God that Solomon describes in his temple dedication.

[Calm]

The glorious things we look forward to are only attainable in and through Christ. Christ is the eternal God, we are not. There is a vast difference between an eternal God and His finite creatures.

And yet God has promised that he and his children will be one.

To reduce God to "an image made like unto corruptible man" is not what we are to do. To bring down the glory of God is an extreme blasphemy.

Good thing that is not what LDS teach. God teaches that he grows in glory through his work in glorifying man, IOW He brings up man to Him, it's not man bringing God down to man's level.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my ^awork and my ^bglory

[cdowis]

Mola Ram Suda Ram, I just wanna quickly respond to a couple of your replies.

Firstly, it is the LDS claim that God is indeed contained in a body, which you affirmed above. I made the point that God cannot be contained at all. Here is what King Solomon had to say on the dedication of the temple:

"But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

I don't feel I need add more than what Solomon has stated here. It's pretty clear. God cannot be contained.

Gen 2 [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Mark 10 [8] And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

I don't feel I need to add more than what Genesis and Christ have said. It's pretty clear. A married man and woman are ONE FLESH, not Twain. They are physically one, and that is what the Bible teaches us. Any man and woman who are not physically one are not married.

Psalm 23 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me;

Now, where specifically is that valley? Can you give us the coordinates of that valley where he will fear no evil. What about other valleys -- is there only one valley where he does not have that fear? Is the Lord absent in other valleys?

I find it interesting that you are so ignorant of the scriptures, that you do not realize that they are full of allegories, and symbolism. The Psalms are full of poetic phrases, as well as Proverbs.

Finally, if Christ and the Father are one substance, how is it that Christ had a physical body? If he cannot be contained, how did he have a physical body both in mortality AND after the resurrection. The Bible teaches us that we were created in the image of God, were we not? If God has not physical boundaries, that would also be the case with ourselves.

Solomon is speaking poetically here, and not literally. That is why we need a living prophet.

[Nemesis]

Well I guess he was warned. Canterdogs you are out of the thread. Learn to discuss not preach.

Nemesis

[cdowis]

We believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. They constitute one God not three. They have eternally been God. The Father did not go through a period of mortal probation to prove His worthiness. He has always been God. Man is the creature of God, not of the same species. God created everything by the power of His Word. Man is has fallen because of sin. The fall was not a fall upward, but was a tragedy and treason against a holy and righteous God. Jesus' atonement covers all sin. There is no sin that Christs' sacrifice does not cover.

We do not believe in an eternal regression of gods. We do not believe in an eternal mother. We do not believe that God can be contained in a body. We do not believe that God can be contained period. He is all powerful, infinitely holy, righteous and good. Man cannot attain godhood. Further, we believe that never attained His Godhood by working His way through a period of mortal probation. He has eternally been God and there is no other God. The Father did not physically procreate us. He did not physically procreate Jesus or Satan. Jesus and Satan are not spirit brothers. Nor are we spirit brothers and sisters of Jesus and Satan.

I think these are statements that are in contradiction to LDS doctrine.

I agree that we disagree, even as Saul disagreed with the Christian prophets, claiming that they taught blasphemy based on his interpretation of the scriptures.

The historic church has replaced the living prophets with scholars and theologians, and the Lord has called modern prophets and living revelation.