Two voices in the Book of Mormon

[mfbukowski]

The striking thing to me is that the clusters due to the stylometric measurements conform very well to the internally claimed structure of the book. Basically, the texts cluster by small plates historical, large plates historical, small plates doctrinal, large plates doctrinal, and Isaiah/Malachi. It seems to me that any naturalistic explanation for the Book of Mormon has to explain this internal structure.

VERY striking indeed! With this news, I think the thread will have new life. Seems quite significant to me.

[Uncle Dale]

It looks like this thread is dying.

...

If so, I hope it will linger on long enough for you to

provide the coordinates for your pca chart.

I enlarged it (as suggested earlier) and can label the data points,

for BoM chapters, etc., if you can supply me a tabulation of the

x and y values.

Here is a small version of the copy I made -- my working graphic

is 400% of this little one.

Dale

[Uncle Dale]

...if you can supply me a tabulation of the x and y values...

For example, Bruce -- the approx. six lowest x-value BoM chapter outliers

along the negative x-axis on your pca chart are as follows:

U0001

-04.42

+04.26

U0002

-04.17

-00.80

U0003

-03.88

+01.98

U0004

-03.68

+03.47

U0005

-03.20

-01.32

U0006

-03.08

+00.35

Since I do not know the proper chapter designations for your chart,

I'm reduced to labeling these data points "U0001," "U0002," etc.

Can you supply the correct BoM chapter titles for these six points

on your pca chart? Didn't you say they were from 2nd Nephi (Isaiah)?

Or, better yet, simply post a tabulation of all the x,y coordinates

for your BoM chapter plots, sorted in a spreadsheet -- first by the

x-column and then by the y-column as the secondary sort control.

UD

.

[Bruce Schaalje]

If so, I hope it will linger on long enough for you to

provide the coordinates for your pca chart.

I enlarged it (as suggested earlier) and can label the data points,

for BoM chapters, etc., if you can supply me a tabulation of the

x and y values.

Dale,

Your plot is impressive. The 2-variable PCA plot is good enough to show that apparently other than the Isaiah chapters, none of the BOM chapters is close enough to any of the candidate author clouds to be suggestive of authorship by those candidates. The cluster analysis and the associated heat map require more principal components (10-15) to show the internal stylometric structure of the BOM chapters based on relative frequencies of the 110 Criddle words. Not exactly knowing what you plan to do with the coordinate data, I hesitate to give it to you. Nevertheless, here is the coordinate data for the BOM Isaiah/Malachi chapters:

chapter author x-coordinate y-coordinate

20 I/M -1.57466 3.75733

21 I/M -2.83990 2.81433

29 I/M -3.58768 3.45367

30 I/M -2.53467 1.32585

34 I/M 0.12690 1.03748

35 I/M -1.13811 -0.19095

36 I/M -4.15878 -0.81922

37 I/M -0.92292 1.77889

38 I/M -3.19624 -1.31859

39 I/M -0.94129 1.41528

40 I/M -0.33025 1.68345

41 I/M -2.51015 0.61750

42 I/M -2.67663 1.09953

43 I/M -2.07070 -1.82660

44 I/M -4.43201 4.24520

45 I/M -3.09898 0.34621

46 I/M -2.31774 0.33700

49 I/M -1.21837 3.98263

80 I/M -2.61063 -2.15247

196 I/M -3.90519 1.96830

198 I/M -1.17885 3.36553

199 I/M -2.82078 2.06372

I just don't want you to think that this information can be used to identify 'Spaldingish' chapters. Based on Criddle's word frequency measurements at least, I am sure there are none. Perhaps you can let me know what you have in mind.

However, I do feel that it is beneficial to work together rather than constantly working against each other. (As an aside, It turns out that my g-g-grandfather was an early RLDS convert, even though my g-grandmother remained LDS.)

Bruce

[Uncle Dale]

Dale,

Your plot is impressive. The 2-variable PCA plot is good enough to show that apparently other than

the Isaiah chapters, none of the BOM chapters is close enough to any of the candidate author clouds

to be suggestive of authorship by those candidates. The cluster analysis and the associated heat map

require more principal components (10-15) to show the internal stylometric structure of the BOM

chapters based on relative frequencies of the 110 Criddle words.

I appreciate your taking the time to continue on in this investigation.

No doubt you have other calls upon your time, and remaining here in this

thread to converse with me is something of an honor for this old student.

Not exactly knowing what you plan to do with the coordinate data, I hesitate to give it to you.

Well, for one thing, you should expect readers to check your work. By saying

that, I do not mean the mathematics of the statistical analysis -- that is far

beyond my interests/qualifications. Rather, I mean just re-checking your visual

depictions, to verify that they are supported by the correct quantifications.

(Who knows, I may catch a mis-plot somewhere in the lists -- not impossible).

But there's another reason,and that is the Jockers teams either already has

something very similar, or are in the process of producing it. If they make

available a very similar pca chart, with accompanying data tables, then your

own offerings will appear incomplete in comparison. Best bet is to keep these

things in proper balance.

Nevertheless, here is the coordinate data for the BOM Isaiah/Malachi chapters:

I'm beginning to like you more all the time -- (Don't tell any of my anti-Mormon

friends: I will ruin my sterling reputation with them) -- but thanks for the data.

I just don't want you to think that this information can be used to identify

'Spaldingish' chapters. Based on Criddle's word frequency measurements at least,

I am sure there are none. Perhaps you can let me know what you have in mind.

Actually it gets more complicated than that, Bruce. I already mentioned ordering

the data in an elongated bar graph for the entire Book of Mormon. Although your

pca plots are not particularly meant for that sort of transfer, they will serve

as a control on my comparisons of my 1979-81 tabulations with the Jockers'

attributions. So, it is not just a search for "Spaldingish" BoM chapters that I'm

pondering -- it is also the negative correlation. I need more "views" to check

for "runs" of similar language in the BoM narrative.

However, I do feel that it is beneficial to work together rather than constantly

working against each other.

Reminds me of an old Leonard Arrington quote (but I'll save that for later).

(As an aside, It turns out that my g-g-grandfather was an early RLDS convert, even

though my g-grandmother remained LDS.)

Bruce

I hope that it did not place undue strain upon the family. I come from a mixed

background myself -- and would not even exist had it not been for a polygamous

Mormon ancestor (not the sort of thing to mention in proper Reorganized meetings,

I might add).

Let me know how to sweet-talk you some more, and I'll put on my best

used car salesman checked sports coat and oily manners.

Dale

.

[Uncle Dale]

...my best used car salesman checked sports coat

...

Here is an updated graphic of your pca chart, Bruce --

with the plots for the 2nd Nephi Isaiah chapters

haloed in approx. 1SD diameter circles (in order to

better visualize their cluster "cloud").

I find it strange that these textual sections from the

Book of Mormon cluster together so far away from the main

concentration of Book of Mormon chapter plots.

I suppose the reason is, that Isaiah-Malachi has been

artificially created as an authorship "voice," to be

measured against the entire Book of Mormon -- and that

your pca methodology essentially treats this "voice"

as a possible 19th century author. I further suppose

that the greatest variance perspective is what is

causing these biblical chapters to plot away from most

of the Book of Mormon plottings.

What would happen if you removed Isaiah-Malachi from

the tabulation of tested "voices?" Either removed those

chapters totally from the charting method, or at least

remove the "voice" data for Isaiah-Malachi.....

Do you suppose that such a change might serve to somewhat

collapse the entire set of plots (and perhaps re-order

their respective locations on the chart output)?

Dale

[Uncle Dale]

bump

[Bruce Schaalje]

I suppose the reason is, that Isaiah-Malachi has been

artificially created as an authorship "voice," to be

measured against the entire Book of Mormon -- and that

your pca methodology essentially treats this "voice"

as a possible 19th century author. I further suppose

that the greatest variance perspective is what is

causing these biblical chapters to plot away from most

of the Book of Mormon plottings.

What would happen if you removed Isaiah-Malachi from

the tabulation of tested "voices?" Either removed those

chapters totally from the charting method, or at least

remove the "voice" data for Isaiah-Malachi.....

Dale,

Your intuition is pretty good. I think the presence of the Biblical Isaiah chapters plus the almost identical BoM Isaiah chapters causes the PCA to find a view that really emphasizes the dfference between these texts and the others. So the difference is really there. Remember, though, that PCA gets no authorship information. So it isn't treating anything as any kind of possible author. By the way, when I talk of 'clouds', I'm talking about 'sets of points' (usually due to the same author), not probability halos around each point. But your plot looks nice anyway, and emphasizes the fact that all of the points have randomness associated with them.

Attached is the PCA plot for the Criddle data minus the Isaiah/Malachi chapters from the Bible and the Book of Mormon. I also left out Barlow and Longfellow. That one Book of Mormon chapter that is near the Rigdon cloud is a Moroni chapter. Also note the one weird Rigdon text that is an apparent outlier.

Bruce

[Uncle Dale]

...

Attached is the PCA plot for the Criddle data minus the Isaiah/Malachi chapters from the Bible

and the Book of Mormon. I also left out Barlow and Longfellow. That one Book of Mormon chapter

that is near the Rigdon cloud is a Moroni chapter. Also note the one weird Rigdon text that is

an apparent outlier.

...

This is especially interesting, and I'm trying to fathom what

implications these plotted relationships may have to the actual

relations between the 19th century authors, Bruce.

One thing you should keep in mind, is that the later Rigdon

word-print data is suspect. His 1863 book likely had literary

input from some associates, and I somewhat suspect that his

wife may have had influence in some of the late "revelations."

I think that some of them are even attributed to her mediumship.

I prepared a compilation of the earlier Rigdon texts for

Ben McGuire's use, and I feel better about its validity for

wordprinting, than I do about the Jockers base text.

This version of your charted data is so much "clearer" for

visualizations, that I'm retiring my earlier request for the

text plot coordinates on the previous chart.

THIS is the one for which I'm continuing my request -- and will

abide by whatever restrictions you care to place upon any further

reproduction than just what you make available for all of us.

Let me craft you a larger, more detailed version of this particular

chart -- and then let's look at clusterings within the cloud of

Book of Mormon chapter plots on that enlarged graphic...

OK?

Dale

[Bruce Schaalje]

This is especially interesting, and I'm trying to fathom what

implications these plotted relationships may have to the actual

relations between the 19th century authors, Bruce.

One thing you should keep in mind, is that the later Rigdon

word-print data is suspect. His 1863 book likely had literary

input from some associates, and I somewhat suspect that his

wife may have had influence in some of the late "revelations."

I think that some of them are even attributed to her mediumship.

I prepared a compilation of the earlier Rigdon texts for

Ben McGuire's use, and I feel better about its validity for

wordprinting, than I do about the Jockers base text.

This version of your charted data is so much "clearer" for

visualizations, that I'm retiring my earlier request for the

text plot coordinates on the previous chart.

THIS is the one for which I'm continuing my request -- and will

abide by whatever restrictions you care to place upon any further

reproduction than just what you make available for all of us.

Let me craft you a larger, more detailed version of this particular

chart -- and then let's look at clusterings within the cloud of

Book of Mormon chapter plots on that enlarged graphic...

OK?

Dale

I think I

[Uncle Dale]

...

These plots show that there is no point in trying to identify Spalding-like or

Rigdon-like chapters using stylomery.

...

I'm not yet convinced of that. At the very least, I'd want to hear some

concurrence from non-LDS statisticians and/or wordprint analysts. Perhaps

that is forthcoming -- but until a few more people state that the matter

is closed and merits no further investigation, I'll try and maintain an

open mind, as to various alternative possibilities.

I suppose that there are other statisticians possessing the software

applications on their computers that can duplicate your most recent

pca chart. If I manage to talk one of those scientists into replicating

the method/output, can I rely upon your subsequent inspection, to at

least inform us of the identity of the two sets of coordinates results?

Until then, I'll turn my attention back to historical stuff -- I have

something like a thousand pre-1844 newspaper articles on the Mormons

that might be of use to somebody, if I can just summon up enough

discipline to dig back into that tedious, tedious transcription work.

Till later,

UD

[MCB]

Dale, my stats is so rusty, and specialized in my professional area, I wouldn't be able to do much about that.

Do you have some of those non-BoM writings of Rigdon available on your web-site? Or could you send them to me, either by snail or e-mail? I am very interested in that. Especially the weird ones. Surprising that Jockers would have included them. I do think peoples' use of written language changes over time.

I might even be able to help you get some stuff entered on your website. Particularly the kind of studd I would be interested in.

Oral history in the Nauvoo area could become an interesting subject, and who knows what might show up in peoples' attics. I just know that my father's family was not very literate, so I don't think there could be any help from my immediate family. But there might be others--- just thinking----

[Uncle Dale]

Dale, my stats is so rusty, and specialized in my professional area,

I wouldn't be able to do much about that.

I think we need to enlist the help of Dana (the New Zealand statistician)

over on that "other" message board -- which shall not be named.

With luck, she'll have the same software as Bruce has, and will be

able to output an identical pca chart from the Jockers data sets.

Once that is accomplished we can capture the x,y ordinates for

the chart plots, and I can use those identifications to precisely

locate and label the Book of Mormon chapter plots on a pca chart '

enlargement. Once that is done, I can determine whether all of the

"Moroni" chapters plot together with the Moroni portions of Ether,

etc., etc. That should tell us something about runs of similar

language within the BoM text -- which will be useful information.

Do you have some of those non-BoM writings of Rigdon available on your web-site?

There's quite a lot here:

http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigWrit1.htm

As I mentioned earlier, I have combined a bunch of these early

Rigdon writings together, in order to create a base Region text

for Ben's ongoing project.

Another thought. If Dana is too busy to chart out the Jockers

data, I'm sure Ben has the expertise and equipment for that work.

UD

[MCB]

There's quite a lot here:

http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigWrit1.htm

As I mentioned earlier, I have combined a bunch of these early

Rigdon writings together, in order to create a base Region text

for Ben's ongoing project.

Another thought. If Dana is too busy to chart out the Jockers

data, I'm sure Ben has the expertise and equipment for that work.

UD

Yeah, Dana has not posted lately. With her level of motivation, and concerns, she would be ideal. Ben would be good, too, and reasonably objective. Thanks for the link to Rigdon writings.

Note: I have been reading this stuff for the past hour, and "scripture salad" it is!!

[Bruce Schaalje]

I'm not yet convinced of that. At the very least, I'd want to hear some

concurrence from non-LDS statisticians and/or wordprint analysts. Perhaps

that is forthcoming -- but until a few more people state that the matter

is closed and merits no further investigation, I'll try and maintain an

open mind, as to various alternative possibilities.

I suppose that there are other statisticians possessing the software

applications on their computers that can duplicate your most recent

pca chart. If I manage to talk one of those scientists into replicating

the method/output, can I rely upon your subsequent inspection, to at

least inform us of the identity of the two sets of coordinates results?

Dale and others,

I would love to have other statisticians look at Criddle's data and comment on my analysis of it. The more the better. I would love to have a reply from Criddle or his associate Daniela Witten to my comments about their use of closed-set NSC (on this forum or somewhere else - what is the name of the unmentionable forum by the way?). I would also appreciate comments on the paper we submitted to LLC.

I don't think the matter is closed. I would love do some work on the Frog thing or the supposed Spalding manuscript in the library of congress. There are other statistical tools I have in mind as well. I am by no means finished with Rigdon's writing. But I am convinced that for Criddle's data (his samples and his words), the BoM chapters are too distant from the Spalding or the Rigdon (or the other) point clouds to conclude anythning about their contributions to those chapters.

I'm not hiding anything. I have out of curiosity looked at the BoM point cloud. The relative statistical distances of the various chapters do not conform to your ideas about Alma 52-53. But the point is that these distances are statistically too large to draw any meaning from their relative sizes. It would be something like concluding that our moon had greater gravitational effect on certain moons of Jupiter than others, depending on which was closest to our moon (I hope I'm not making an astronomical blunder here in either sense).

Bruce

[Uncle Dale]

...

what is the name of the unmentionable forum by the way?

...

Can't tell you, or I'll get banned here.

(But, I might say it works at cross-purposes to our efforts on this MB)

Google around for a minute or two --- and I'll be happy

to meet you "beyond the veil" in that "other kingdom."

Your Uncle Dale

[Bruce Schaalje]

Google around for a minute or two --- and I'll be happy

to meet you "beyond the veil" in that "other kingdom."

Your Uncle Dale

Uuuuh,....... I think I'll just hang around here for now.

[Uncle Dale]

Uuuuh,....... I think I'll just hang around here for now.

As folks may advise us here -- "avoid even the appearance of evil."

Doc Shades' message board is not considered "the loyal opposition,"

I fear -- just "THE opposition," (by our staunch MaD supporters).

UD

[Uncle Dale]

Dale,

...I just don't want you to think that this information can be used

to identify 'Spaldingish' chapters.

...

Yes, I understand that, Bruce -- But what about "Rigdonish" BoM chapters?

As you'll see from my development of your pca chart, there are numerous

Book of Mormon chapter plots which fall closer to the gravitational center

of the "Rigdon Cloud" than they do to their own (BoM) Cloud's center.

Could you at least supply the identities of these "near Rigdon" BoM plots,

while I'm waiting to have my own pca charts generated?

I'll start a new thread with this same chart in it, if I don't hear

back with a timely reply.

Thanks,

Dale

.

[Uncle Dale]

...But what about "Rigdonish" BoM chapters?

...

I've tried to explain my embellished enlargement of Bruce's

BoM/19th century authors pca chart to a friend. I'm not sure

I did a very good job of explaining things -- but I'll try

again here, with the same words:

What I've done, is to enlarge Bruce's original pca chart, on which he plotted

the locations of Book of Mormon chapters, Rigdon texts, etc., according to

their mathematical values' distances from the average (mean) of all the texts:

His x-axis values and his y-axis values represent the first and second

greatest variation from the mean (from 0,0 on the chart) factor for all

the texts examined by Jockers (less Barlow, Longfellow & Isaiah).

On my enlargement, I determined the mathematical average value for all of

the BoM (blue) plot points -- also the average value for all of the Rigdon

(brown) plot points. You'll see those two centers represented by sets of

blue and brown axes within the clusters of BoM plots and Rigdon plots.

I next determined the distance of the chart, between the center of the

BoM plots and the center of the Rigdon plots, and drew a black line between

those two important points.

I next divided that line in to two halves and used their respective distances

as radii for blue and brown circles, centered upon the BoM and Rigdon

clusters' centers. I colored these two circles light blue and light brown,

and called their respective areas (with the plots contained) "Clouds."

Finally, I extended out the BoM cloud and the Rigdon cloud by 20% and

again by another 20%, to produce two, lighter shaded extensions of the

original clouds.

By this method we can quickly grasp, visually, which Book of Mormon chapters

actually cluster closer to the center of the Rigdon plots than they do to the

center of their own cloud (the great BoM chapters' cluster).

This tells me that there is some internal textual element/feature/factor in

those particular BoM chapters which tend to cluster them with Rigdon's

known literary compositions. Using the parameters of Bruce's chart, that

clustering factor appears to be rather weak and unremarkable --- but, if

we could identify the names of those "Rigdonish" BoM chapters, we might

be able to study them by different means, to see what they have in common.

For example: Do the pca chart's "Rigdonish BoM" chapters correspond to the

BoM chapters Jockers has previously attributed to Rigdon's authorship?

Here are my coordinate values -- (which may contain errors) ------>

BRUCE'S BoM PLOTS:

B001 -4.11 +4.04

B002 -3.29 +4.13

B003 -3.10 +6.35

B004 -2.99 +2.73

B005 -2.92 +6.00

B006 -2.92 +4.52

B007 -2.92 +4.40

B008 -2.90 +4.88

B009 -2.84 +5.13

B010 -2.82 +5.09

B011 -2.74 +4.52

B012 -2.74 +2.96

B013 -2.72 +3.97

B014 -2.69 +5.39

B015 -2.64 +7.18

B016 -2.52 +6.57

B017 -2.50 +7.91

B018 -2.48 +5.44

B019 -2.48 +3.75

B020 -2.42 +5.75

B021 -2.38 +6.89

B022 -2.36 +6.00

B023 -2.23 +5.30

B024 -2.18 +6.27

B025 -2.18 +5.88

B026 -2.01 +5.66

B027 -1.98 +6.27

B028 -1.98 +5.97

B029 -1.93 +6.21

B030 -1.93 +5.62

B031 -1.93 +3.66

B032 -1.91 +4.91

B033 -1.89 +2.69

B034 -1.84 +8.49

B035 -1.84 +3.48

B036 -1.79 +7.49

B037 -1.74 +6.37

B038 -1.69 +5.79

B039 -1.69 +4.88

B040 -1.67 +3.91

B041 -1.59 +3.88

B042 -1.57 +4.83

B043 -1.54 +5.61

B044 -1.54 +2.61

B045 -1.44 +3.79

B046 -1.42 +6.83

B047 -1.39 +1.74

B048 -1.38 +2.69

B049 -1.29 +6.37

B050 -1.26 +4.95

B051 -1.18 +5.01

B052 -1.14 +7.22

B053 -1.10 +4.83

B054 -1.08 +4.43

B055 -1.06 +4.69

B056 -1.00 +6.13

B057 -1.00 +2.40

B058 -0.98 +6.40

B059 -0.97 +5.39

B060 -0.94 +2.87

B061 -0.94 +1.88

B062 -0.92 +7.26

B063 -0.91 +4.08

B064 -0.89 +4.83

B065 -0.89 +3.91

B066 -0.87 +3.01

B067 -0.86 +5.01

B068 -0.79 +5.66

B069 -0.79 +3.27

B070 -0.59 +5.21

B071 -0.57 +7.00

B072 -0.57 +3.48

B073 -0.27 +3.83

B074 -0.25 +4.13

B075 -0.25 +2.66

B076 -0.20 +6.37

B077 -0.20 +2.18

B078 -0.18 +0.67

B079 -0.15 +4.22

B080 -0.15 +2.35

B081 -0.01 +3.03

B082 +0.05 +3.74

B083 +0.10 +2.22

B085 +0.18 +1.83

B086 +0.20 +5.52

B087 +0.24 +1.53

B088 +0.34 +3.53

B089 +0.47 +1.52

B090 +0.47 +0.88

B091 +0.61 +3.66

B092 +0.64 +4.88

B093 +0.74 +0.87

B094 +0.75 +3.39

B095 +0.75 +2.40

B096 +0.79 +3.61

B097 +0.81 +2.83

B098 +0.87 +2.52

B099 +0.99 +3.09

B100 +1.09 +3.74

B101 +1.09 -1.37

B102 +1.11 +2.57

B103 +1.13 +2.79

B104 +1.35 -1.31

B105 +1.41 +2.73

B106 +1.42 +1.43

B107 +1.48 +1.43

B108 +1.56 +4.66

B109 +1.60 +3.48

B110 +1.60 +1.43

B111 +1.62 -1.57

B112 +1.66 +3.12

B113 +1.68 -1.05

B114 +1.73 +1.88

B115 +1.73 -1.92

B116 +1.80 +3.92

B117 +1.85 +4.74

B118 +1.90 +0.09

B119 +1.99 +3.22

B120 +2.05 -1.31

B121 +2.08 +1.53

B122 +2.10 -0.44

B123 +2.14 +1.30

B124 +2.18 +0.79

B125 +2.19 -1.11

B126 +2.19 -3.79

B127 +2.24 +1.17

B128 +2.24 +0.36

B129 +2.37 -1.04

B130 +2.39 +2.79

B131 +2.44 +0.83

B132 +2.48 +2.18

B133 +2.48 +1.39

B134 +2.48 +0.61

B135 +2.53 +2.88

B136 +2.53 -2.48

B137 +2.57 +2.48

B138 +2.59 +1.70

B139 +2.61 +2.04

B140 +2.67 -0.69

B141 +2.67 -1.35

B142 +2.68 -0.69

B143 +2.71 +1.99

B144 +2.71 +0.66

B145 +2.76 +2.13

B146 +2.81 +0.27

B147 +2.99 +0.83

B148 +2.99 -2.09

B149 +3.00 -1.87

B150 +3.00 -2.44

B151 +3.12 -0.69

B152 +3.12 -2.26

B153 +3.15 -0.44

B154 +3.20 -2.01

B155 +3.23 -1.56

B156 +3.25 -1.00

B157 +3.28 -1.35

B158 +3.31 -0.13

B159 +3.33 -2.96

B160 +3.35 +2.92

B161 +3.36 -0.04

B162 +3.40 -3.09

B163 +3.46 -3.73

B164 +3.52 -0.09

B165 +3.52 -2.04

B166 +3.52 -2.74

B167 +3.60 -2.30

B168 +3.67 -3.48

B169 +3.69 -0.40

B170 +3.72 -3.48

B171 +3.79 -0.66

B172 +3.79 -1.97

B173 +3.84 +0.95

B174 +3.92 +1.17

B175 +4.01 +0.36

B176 +4.04 -0.96

B177 +4.04 -2.04

B178 +4.09 -1.39

B179 +4.14 -0.39

B180 +4.14 -0.96

B181 +4.17 +2.14

B182 +4.24 -1.13

B183 +4.30 -1.34

B184 +4.37 -0.96

B185 +4.41 -1.13

B186 +4.41 -3.12

B187 +4.43 -0.69

B188 +4.48 -2.39

B189 +4.53 -3.52

B190 +4.56 +0.18

B191 +4.61 -2.04

B192 +4.66 -0.57

B193 +4.76 -2.48

B194 +4.79 -2.13

B195 +4.88 +0.31

B196 +4.95 +2.00

B197 +5.04 +3.69

B198 +5.14 -1.17

B199 +5.17 -2.34

B200 +5.28 -1.05

B201 +5.39 +0.49

B202 +5.59 -1.27

B203 +5.69 +4.36

B204 +6.10 -4.21

B205 +6.11 -3.09

B206 +6.46 -0.61

B207 +6.50 -0.57

B208 +6.53 -1.35

B209 +6.88 -2.52

B210 +7.00 -2.91

B211 +7.07 -1.69

B212 +7.24 -0.39

B213 +7.69 -3.73

avg. +1.28 +1.92

BRUCE'S RIGDON PLOTS:

R001 -4.04 -5.31

R002 -1.81 -2.22

R003 -1.20 -2.44

R004 -1.15 -2.95

R005 -1.05 -0.48

R006 -1.05 -1.73

R007 -1.00 -3.35

R008 -0.89 -3.00

R009 -0.61 -3.79

R010 -0.57 -2.34

R011 -0.47 -2.30

R012 -0.41 -1.91

R013 -0.27 -4.26

R014 -0.22 -2.39

R015 -0.18 -3.05

R016 -0.10 -2.17

R017 -0.10 -2.99

R018 +0.12 -2.95

R019 +0.42 -3.14

R020 +0.49 -2.91

R021 +0.74 -2.99

R022 +1.16 -2.61

R023 +1.28 -2.83

avg. -0.47 -2.79

Uncle Dale

.

[Uncle Dale]

I've tried to explain...

Anybody know where Bruce Schaalje disappeared to?

UD

[Glenn101]

I've tried to explain my embellished enlargement of Bruce's

BoM/19th century authors pca chart to a friend. I'm not sure

I did a very good job of explaining things -- but I'll try

again here, with the same words:

What I've done, is to enlarge Bruce's original pca chart, on which he plotted

the locations of Book of Mormon chapters, Rigdon texts, etc., according to

their mathematical values' distances from the average (mean) of all the texts:

His x-axis values and his y-axis values represent the first and second

greatest variation from the mean (from 0,0 on the chart) factor for all

the texts examined by Jockers (less Barlow, Longfellow & Isaiah).

On my enlargement, I determined the mathematical average value for all of

the BoM (blue) plot points -- also the average value for all of the Rigdon

(brown) plot points. You'll see those two centers represented by sets of

blue and brown axes within the clusters of BoM plots and Rigdon plots.

I next determined the distance of the chart, between the center of the

BoM plots and the center of the Rigdon plots, and drew a black line between

those two important points.

I next divided that line in to two halves and used their respective distances

as radii for blue and brown circles, centered upon the BoM and Rigdon

clusters' centers. I colored these two circles light blue and light brown,

and called their respective areas (with the plots contained) "Clouds."

Finally, I extended out the BoM cloud and the Rigdon cloud by 20% and

again by another 20%, to produce two, lighter shaded extensions of the

original clouds.

By this method we can quickly grasp, visually, which Book of Mormon chapters

actually cluster closer to the center of the Rigdon plots than they do to the

center of their own cloud (the great BoM chapters' cluster).

This tells me that there is some internal textual element/feature/factor in

those particular BoM chapters which tend to cluster them with Rigdon's

known literary compositions. Using the parameters of Bruce's chart, that

clustering factor appears to be rather weak and unremarkable --- but, if

we could identify the names of those "Rigdonish" BoM chapters, we might

be able to study them by different means, to see what they have in common.

For example: Do the pca chart's "Rigdonish BoM" chapters correspond to the

BoM chapters Jockers has previously attributed to Rigdon's authorship?

--------------------------

Uncle Dale

.

Dale, I would logically expect that the pca charts would correlate strongly with results of the Jockers study. Bruce used the same 110 words used in that study to generate his pca charts. I would be surprised if they did not. I am not sure what inference(s) can be drawn from such a correlation. As has been discussed before, the Jockers study will produce a "winner" even if the correct author is not included in the set of possible authors. In Bruce's paper, a "goodness of fit" equation was applied to the NSC data and it was determined not to be a good fit. No one has responded yet to that paper and it is still languishing awaiting publication, but it is publicly available for anyone with (or without) pertinent qualifications to take potshots at.

Glenn

[Uncle Dale]

...

No one has responded yet to that paper and it is still languishing awaiting publication

...

Unfortunately that particular paper does not contain Bruce's pca chart(s),

nor the coordinate data for the various texts thus charted.

And, it is my understanding (and I may be incorrect) that the Stanford

team will not bother to try and respond to anything that he publishes

in the future in the LDS literature.

That leaves just one venue -- the peer-reviewed professional statistics

journals -- in which Bruce might publish his pca charts, and their

accompanying plot coordinate data, for all the texts he's examined.

It just seems logical that, if he's going to point to these pca charts

as proof against a 19th century authorship, that he should also make

public the coordinate data, along with the BoM and 19th century authors

labels. He previously said that the charts were too small for attaching

labels -- that he did not know how to do that. And yet, I have produced

a fairly easy to read "blow-up" of one of his pca charts in this very

MB thread. It would be no difficult task for me (or anybody) to go back

and add the respective text labels to those plots Bruce came up with.

I do not understand why this is not allowable. ???

The best I can so far come up with, is contracting out to a statistics

service, to re-create his pc1/pc2 chart, for about 4 hours' billing, at

something like $120 an hour (possibly less).

And all of that, just to gain knowledge of the individual elements in a

pca plot which is the destroyer of 19th century authorship theories for

the Book of Mormon. How much more will I have to fork out, to contract

for renderings of pc3/pc4, pc5/pc6, etc., in a full series of these

killer charts? I want to know what they will reveal/demonstrate. But I

appear to be the only person in the world who is curious.

I think that the rest of the scholarly world will only open its sleepy

eyes, when Bruce produces another chart in the series, in which the

plots for Joseph Smith texts (with his word-print data) ALSO fall far,

far away from the Book of Mormon cluster, in multiple pca charts.

ONLY THEN will the Gentiles and Apostates wake up and realize that his

charts have destroyed their authorship explanations, as well as any

hope for Barlow, Longfellow, Isaiah, Cowdery, Pratt, Rigdon and Spalding.

I just want to know the identities of the BoM plots, on the charts that

will be used to "kill" the S-R theory and the Smith alone theory.

Is that too much to ask?

Ben McGuire -- I know you're out there, and fully capable of answering

my questions.

UD

[Uncle Dale]

...

Is that too much to ask?

...

Actually, what I'd like to know, first of all, are the identities of the

plots highlighted in red, in this combination of portions of Bruce's original

chart and my enlargement (below).

If we could identify these red-highlighted Book of Mormon chapters, and then

look for them on plottings of pc3/pc4, pc5/pc6, etc., would they continue to

appear near the Rigdon texts' plots (also reddened in my graphic)?

In other words, is there such a thing as a "Rigdon authorship" cloud of

probability/possibility, which will reappear in each plotting of variations

away from the mean, in multiple pca charts ----> all containing the same

known Rigdon texts and the same "Rigdonish" Book of Mormon chapters?

At the very least, I wish to know the identities of the reddened BoM plots

in my graphic, so that I can compare them to Jockers' set of Rigdon authorship

attributions for Book of Mormon chapters, in his 2008 paper.

Isn't this the sort of critical inquiry Science is supposed to welcome?

Even if my idea turns out to be wrong -- shouldn't we at least examine

the data, so that such a faulty idea can be effectively discarded?

Are we doing real Science here, or religious faith-promotion only?

UD

.

[Uncle Dale]

Anybody know where Bruce Schaalje disappeared to?

UD

Or... can anybody tell me if his upcoming Maxwell Institute paper on

a computerized examination of the Book of Mormon authorship question

will include coordinate tabulations for the type of pca charts he has

shared with readers at this Message Board?

UD